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Sugar420 · 12-07-2005, 11:14 PM

but in the OT God says at
Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."

Jesus and the apostles didnt submit to civil authorities, paul himself had the govenor of damascus with a garrison of soldiers trying to catch him. he wrote, "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands," 2 corinthians 11:32.

but the question here,
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

"the powers that be" has become an expression now, but couldnt it be that paul was referring to church leaders in the body of Christ?
does it seem inconsistant with everything else? especially since in the same letter, he writes, "do not be conformed to this world" romans 12:2
obeying ceasar is conforming to the world.

if paul is telling us to obey the state, why did ceasar have him beheaded?
becuz maybe paul was not saying that at all?

Jesus specific instructions to his followers: "Do not resist one who is evil" (Mat 5:39
but it is worthwhile to note that the greek word anthistemi, translated as "resist," is used most often as a military term. it refers to violent struggle or resistance in military encounters, so the translation "do not resist an evildoer" therefore is misleading. "Do not violently resist an evildoer" is what was written down

“My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.” (John 18:36)

thats what Jesus says.

forgive your oppressors (Mt. 6:14) Love and pray and bless them.

don’t fight over land or water rights (Mt.6:25) “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink. don’t worry about what you will eat or drink”

don’t condemn your oppressors , but look at your own faults that led you to your state of oppression. (Mt.7:1) “regard the mote that is in your own eye”

don’t try to force others to follow the golden rule (Mt.7:12). you have been forgiven so much, will you now demand that your brother pays every penny for his sins?

do not fight for housing rights. true followers have no homes. or place to lay their heads. (Mt.8:20)

don’t fight over burial grounds “Let the dead bury the dead.” (Mt.8:22)

Jesus didn’t try to reform tax laws he called Mathew to leave that life (Mt.9:9)

“But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues...when they persecute you flee “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another.” (Mt.10:17-23) if they persecute you in chiapas, flee to sinaloa.

the Devil’s Children and Jah’s children are mixed like wheat and tares and no one can distinguish between them and we are not to try to root up the tares. (Mt.13:29)

we are not to attack blind leaders but ignore them “ “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (Mt.15:14)

we have not been sent to reform the world for what if we gain the world and lose our souls. (Mt.16:24)

so thats why i think paul is not saying that we should submit ourselves to the state.

12-07-2005, 11:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sugar420 Decade Yahookan Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,106 Thanks: 34 Thanked 155 Times in 717 Posts	but in the OT God says at Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not." Jesus and the apostles didnt submit to civil authorities, paul himself had the govenor of damascus with a garrison of soldiers trying to catch him. he wrote, "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands," 2 corinthians 11:32. but the question here, Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. "the powers that be" has become an expression now, but couldnt it be that paul was referring to church leaders in the body of Christ? does it seem inconsistant with everything else? especially since in the same letter, he writes, "do not be conformed to this world" romans 12:2 obeying ceasar is conforming to the world. if paul is telling us to obey the state, why did ceasar have him beheaded? becuz maybe paul was not saying that at all? Jesus specific instructions to his followers: "Do not resist one who is evil" (Mat 5:39 but it is worthwhile to note that the greek word anthistemi, translated as "resist," is used most often as a military term. it refers to violent struggle or resistance in military encounters, so the translation "do not resist an evildoer" therefore is misleading. "Do not violently resist an evildoer" is what was written down “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.” (John 18:36) thats what Jesus says. forgive your oppressors (Mt. 6:14) Love and pray and bless them. don’t fight over land or water rights (Mt.6:25) “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink. don’t worry about what you will eat or drink” don’t condemn your oppressors , but look at your own faults that led you to your state of oppression. (Mt.7:1) “regard the mote that is in your own eye” don’t try to force others to follow the golden rule (Mt.7:12). you have been forgiven so much, will you now demand that your brother pays every penny for his sins? do not fight for housing rights. true followers have no homes. or place to lay their heads. (Mt.8:20) don’t fight over burial grounds “Let the dead bury the dead.” (Mt.8:22) Jesus didn’t try to reform tax laws he called Mathew to leave that life (Mt.9:9) “But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues...when they persecute you flee “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another.” (Mt.10:17-23) if they persecute you in chiapas, flee to sinaloa. the Devil’s Children and Jah’s children are mixed like wheat and tares and no one can distinguish between them and we are not to try to root up the tares. (Mt.13:29) we are not to attack blind leaders but ignore them “ “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (Mt.15:14) we have not been sent to reform the world for what if we gain the world and lose our souls. (Mt.16:24) so thats why i think paul is not saying that we should submit ourselves to the state.