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BibleGuy · 10-30-2009, 12:38 PM

Hi MannyBoy,

Thank you for kindly challenging what you perceive to be my assumptions. Sources? Certainly. Glad to. Scripture references are to the KJV.

"Incense" is from Hebrew qetoreth, from qatar. Exodus 30:27 and 30:23. "Sweet calamus" is qaneh bosem. Incense is a "perfume" for the Tabernacle of the Congregation (Tent of Meeting). Exodus 30:34-36. This "perfume" and "incense" are the same thing; Hebrew qetoreth in both cases. The "sweet spices" is Hebrew sam which compares to basam which is of the same root as bosem, that is, qaneh bosem. This is the "incense" that Aaron "made atonement" with in Numbers 16:46-48.

"Atonement" is from Hebrew kaphar.

"Healing" in Revelation 22:2 is from therapeia.

"You seem to be implying that the Biblical story above is evidence that marijuana has Biblical precedent for our use. While this implication may be true, your proof (exegesis) is shaky. Incense was a pleasant smelling smoke used in worship by the Israelites. It was used to acknowledge God (YHWH). In this event God was using the smoke (the thing used in worship to remind the people of God, the thing that goes up to heaven) to kind of slap them out of there sinful stupor. Maybe to get between them on earth and God in heaven to stop the plague."

I understand your orthodox perspective. However, the meaning of "incense" is a fumigation which is to inclose (join) which is far more intimate than a reminder. Regarding exegesis, I will kindly and sincerely ask you... what is your basis for limiting the joining incense to a mere acknoweledgement and reminder of YHWH?

"According to the New Bible Dictionary (Third Ed.) incense was very expensive as was usually frankincense. It came from the resin of the bark of several trees in NE Africa. S. Arabia, NW India. Frankincense (the same expensive stuff offered to baby Jesus by one of the wealth "Kings") would be far to costly to come from cannabis growing around wild as weeds in ancient Israel, Mesopotamia, and other lands."

Yes, but Frankincense is Hebrew lebonah - a different incense from Qaneh bosem that is identified separately in Exodus 30:34.

"Admittedly, my Biblical Hebrew is not real good, but I have only heard of "atonement" - an extremely important Biblical concept - as the idea of "reconciliation. " The idea being, we (I) have separated myself from the holy (sinless) God by sinning. Therefore, I need atonement - a way to restore -reconcile- the relationship. A Biblical precept is that I have no power to correct this thing because I now have sin. God (sinless) must take the initiative. (Like in the story you cite above.)"

Yes, very important, and you are offering a very orthodox understanding according to what you've heard. What I'm suggesting, in order to understand what really took place here, is that we consider the actual meaning of "atonement" in this verse without filtering it through a pre-conceived conceptual understanding.

"And your last point is valid. Yes in Revelation (the story of last things on earth as it is now and how God will recreate the earth). Part of the new earth will be a Tree of Life (the same one that was in the Garden of Eden back in the book of Genesis). The leaves of this tree will bring the healing of the nations. I think this partly means there will be no more reason for war."

"I think this partly means there will be no more reason for war" is a wonderful thought. But again, kindly, what is your basis for this exegesis? Healing is very specifically, a medical cure.

"My main point with this post: it does us no good to very loosely use the Bible to justify marijuana use. I am not saying the Bible speaks directlyagainst the use of pot or that it speaks directly for it's use. Like most things, the Bible needs interpretation on this question. When we use huge jumps in logic (incense was pot, leaves from the Tree of Life are pot) we only set our cause backward. The other side will easily tear our argument to shreds."

I agree with you that loose associations do no good. I would even call it criminal because its misleading. I take this matter very seriously and try to provide basis for the things that I say so that others can look these things up for themselves and come to their own conclusions, if they want to. Most of what the church in general believes about marijuana is based upon what they've heard: "Reefer Madness" and all that, and applying rules about wine intoxication to everything else "by extension" which has lead sadly to erroneous doctrine.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies* in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1Timothy 4:1-4)

"Speaking lies" is psuedologos: promulgating erroneous Christian doctrine.

Let's face it. Much of the world thinks of pot users as ignorant, controlled by chemicals, and desperate to make our use socially acceptable so we can secure an easy next "fix."

You nailed it.

Let's work together to present facts and logical arguments to refute these biases. We can to it. Not to long ago society was firmly against gambling. Of course some still are, but you look at the change now! And who would have thought in 1999 we would have 13 states (I think) with MMJ laws! Keep it people. We can do this.

Agreed. Let's work together and present the truth. The truth is what makes us free. The states are slowly coming around because people have identified the tree by it's fruit* rather by the lies of propaganda.

* Jesus taught this principle in Luke 6:44.

More on the Religious and spiritual use of cannabis.

10-30-2009, 12:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
BibleGuy YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 329 Thanks: 137 Thanked 136 Times in 85 Posts	Hi MannyBoy, Thank you for kindly challenging what you perceive to be my assumptions. Sources? Certainly. Glad to. Scripture references are to the KJV. "Incense" is from Hebrew qetoreth, from qatar. Exodus 30:27 and 30:23. "Sweet calamus" is qaneh bosem. Incense is a "perfume" for the Tabernacle of the Congregation (Tent of Meeting). Exodus 30:34-36. This "perfume" and "incense" are the same thing; Hebrew qetoreth in both cases. The "sweet spices" is Hebrew sam which compares to basam which is of the same root as bosem, that is, qaneh bosem. This is the "incense" that Aaron "made atonement" with in Numbers 16:46-48. "Atonement" is from Hebrew kaphar. "Healing" in Revelation 22:2 is from therapeia. "You seem to be implying that the Biblical story above is evidence that marijuana has Biblical precedent for our use. While this implication may be true, your proof (exegesis) is shaky. Incense was a pleasant smelling smoke used in worship by the Israelites. It was used to acknowledge God (YHWH). In this event God was using the smoke (the thing used in worship to remind the people of God, the thing that goes up to heaven) to kind of slap them out of there sinful stupor. Maybe to get between them on earth and God in heaven to stop the plague." I understand your orthodox perspective. However, the meaning of "incense" is a fumigation which is to inclose (join) which is far more intimate than a reminder. Regarding exegesis, I will kindly and sincerely ask you... what is your basis for limiting the joining incense to a mere acknoweledgement and reminder of YHWH? "According to the New Bible Dictionary (Third Ed.) incense was very expensive as was usually frankincense. It came from the resin of the bark of several trees in NE Africa. S. Arabia, NW India. Frankincense (the same expensive stuff offered to baby Jesus by one of the wealth "Kings") would be far to costly to come from cannabis growing around wild as weeds in ancient Israel, Mesopotamia, and other lands." Yes, but Frankincense is Hebrew lebonah - a different incense from Qaneh bosem that is identified separately in Exodus 30:34. "Admittedly, my Biblical Hebrew is not real good, but I have only heard of "atonement" - an extremely important Biblical concept - as the idea of "reconciliation. " The idea being, we (I) have separated myself from the holy (sinless) God by sinning. Therefore, I need atonement - a way to restore -reconcile- the relationship. A Biblical precept is that I have no power to correct this thing because I now have sin. God (sinless) must take the initiative. (Like in the story you cite above.)" Yes, very important, and you are offering a very orthodox understanding according to what you've heard. What I'm suggesting, in order to understand what really took place here, is that we consider the actual meaning of "atonement" in this verse without filtering it through a pre-conceived conceptual understanding. "And your last point is valid. Yes in Revelation (the story of last things on earth as it is now and how God will recreate the earth). Part of the new earth will be a Tree of Life (the same one that was in the Garden of Eden back in the book of Genesis). The leaves of this tree will bring the healing of the nations. I think this partly means there will be no more reason for war." "I think this partly means there will be no more reason for war" is a wonderful thought. But again, kindly, what is your basis for this exegesis? Healing is very specifically, a medical cure. "My main point with this post: it does us no good to very loosely use the Bible to justify marijuana use. I am not saying the Bible speaks directlyagainst the use of pot or that it speaks directly for it's use. Like most things, the Bible needs interpretation on this question. When we use huge jumps in logic (incense was pot, leaves from the Tree of Life are pot) we only set our cause backward. The other side will easily tear our argument to shreds." I agree with you that loose associations do no good. I would even call it criminal because its misleading. I take this matter very seriously and try to provide basis for the things that I say so that others can look these things up for themselves and come to their own conclusions, if they want to. Most of what the church in general believes about marijuana is based upon what they've heard: "Reefer Madness" and all that, and applying rules about wine intoxication to everything else "by extension" which has lead sadly to erroneous doctrine. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies* in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1Timothy 4:1-4) "Speaking lies" is psuedologos: promulgating erroneous Christian doctrine. Let's face it. Much of the world thinks of pot users as ignorant, controlled by chemicals, and desperate to make our use socially acceptable so we can secure an easy next "fix." You nailed it. Let's work together to present facts and logical arguments to refute these biases. We can to it. Not to long ago society was firmly against gambling. Of course some still are, but you look at the change now! And who would have thought in 1999 we would have 13 states (I think) with MMJ laws! Keep it people. We can do this. Agreed. Let's work together and present the truth. The truth is what makes us free. The states are slowly coming around because people have identified the tree by it's fruit* rather by the lies of propaganda. * Jesus taught this principle in Luke 6:44. More on the Religious and spiritual use of cannabis.