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Farmers Lab Advanced Theories and Techniques - Got a few grows under your belt and want to discuss more advanced theories and techniques? Discuss these matters here.

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Old 10-21-2008, 08:36 AM   #21 (permalink)
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i will look into this when i get back to canada. i have a couple friends i think would be interested in the products.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:55 AM   #22 (permalink)
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dude went to isomerizer school.

Thanks heaps for sharing.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Very interesting, even though I don't fully understand it. You should find a grower friend and you could probably get their close trim for free or nearly free.

There's another forum Tokecity.com that would probably be very interested in this. There are a lot of people over there that love butane honey oil. To vaporize it a lot of them have devices sort of like bubblers, but with a bell curve and a piece of titanium on a swing-arm. You swing the arm up and use a butane torch to get it red hot, then swing it down just under the bell and dab oil onto the titanium pad and suck up the smoke through the bell. Supposed to be the best way to consume oil...

here's a pic
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Damn!!!

You have no idea just how much I appreciate this info, Elric. You have filled in the empty spots that have puzzled me for years, and I cannot thank you enough. I know of 5 models, The original Iso had 2 and they made 3 variations of the Iso-2. They look like props from Spaceballs, and mine was always a "humidifier" if anyone saw it. I have never had any worries about operation, no odors, no problems. I have extracted elbows and elbows, but you have increased my knowledge 100%. Thank you, Thank you , Thank you, I hope to repay you someday, somehow. I have more questions, and I hope you will apply your knowledge for me. A thousand blessings upon your Head, friend!
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You use 1-2 drops of Sulphuric Acid for every cup of Alcohol/Oil mix and heat 1-2 hours. You use a little more acid and add time if you are doing a "full load" of finely ground stuff vs. loosley cramming a couple ozs of leaves for a small run.

Also, if you want to clean the oil up, simply mix your neutralized solution (after adding baking soda) to an equivalent measure of toluene (an industrial solvent available on inet) and place all in a separatory funnel and stir well (A Ring Stand to hold the funnel is VERY helpful). Let it sit for a few minutes, and the Alcohol/Chlorophyll (the "green" part of the mixture) will separate out to the bottom of the funnel. Then the Toluene is next, and your oil is mostly floating on the top of that. Simply bleed off the alcohol/chlorophyll mixture, put it back in the iso2 with a glass in the soxhlet basket and reclaim your alcohol for your next run. Throw the "green slime" left in the bucket away. Now separate the toluene/oil mixture with the iso2, then when you have most of it separated, open the iso2 in a well ventilated area on high and burn off the remainder of the toluene. You'll be left with beautiful black oil with none of that crappy green tinted plant "goo" in it. Hope this helps.
I have so many questions, I don't know where to start (scooterman paces aimlessly, bong in hand, bud in brain!!). What is a "separatory funnel? Also, when you say " the Alcohol/Clorophyll will separate out to the bottom of the funnel. Then the Tuolene is next, and your oil is mostly floating on top of that. " I'm sorry, but could you be more detailed in your description of the process? And the part about the "green slime", if the slime is in the bucket, where is the oil??? I'm not following you there, obviously!!! PLEASE, be as detailed as you can!!!I don't have much real chemistry equipment, but if it helps, I will!!! I can't thank you enough, elric, your my hero of the day!!!! I can't believe I'm finally getting answers to these questions, after all these YEARS!!! Thanx again, and may the Bud Goddess spread her trichome goodness from the ground up on all your harvests!!!
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Thumbs up More ISO2 questions for Elric40, Master-Head!!

What wattage bulb do you recommend, and is there a proper type of bulb?? Mine did not have the original, and I have been using 60w incandescents. I use 98% rubbing alcohol, what do you use? I have never used tuolene, I have seen another type of essential oil extractor which used tuolene, but before I got to examine it closely the owner accidentally BLEW IT UP! What is the proper alcohol/plant material ratio? How long do you extract? I use an old glass blender to powder my leaf, and I can fit approximately 3 oz into the basket. At room temp I set mine at 5-6 and extract for 36-48 hours, or until the vegetable material takes on a pale, pale yellow hue. What do you recommend? Again, thanks for your wisdom, friend!!
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Question Lettuce Opium Extraction

Friend Elric40, do you have any formulas for lettuce opium extraction? I would like to know if I'm doing that properly as well. People would be surprised at the amount of smokable goodness that gets thrown away at the local grocery store!
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Nope....no more isomerizers, and this was the only one that really worked. It's basically a sealable stainless steel coffee pot with a pressure release system. The spun aluminum top is a slightly inverted cone on the bottom. You put Ice in the bottom of the aluminum top and when the hot alcohol (gas) rises up, it cools a little (turns into liquid) and immediately runs down to the center, and drips into the product in a basket....just like a coffee pot

It's entirely safe to use as long as you don't smoke around it.....duh. You can find 1 or 2 a year on ebay listed as "essential oil extractors".

The quote above is from a link where the author states that there is only about 3% unconverted CBDs and CNBs in "average" low to mid-grade pot. Isomerization is supposed to change these and THC into delta-9 THC (the "trippy" THC), so his theory is that there is not much there to convert, and that hemp actually has a higher percentage of these unconverted chemicals, so would produce better oil. Back in the 70's, we were told that there was like 15-20% unconverted CBN's etc, so there would be a vast improvement from the crappy pot to the oil quality.

I'll have to say this interests me to the point that I am going to try 2 batches the next time I fire it up. I'll leech, then use the acid, neutralize and separate as usual. The second batch, I'll just leech and separate and see if there is appreciable difference.
I've also toyed with the idea of using 100% strength citric acid (VERY EXPENSIVE) to see if it would do anything or maybe improve the taste.........I'll let you know if I ever get around to it.

Like scooter said though......I can add 1 gram of clean oil to a pizza paste, cook a medium pizza and share it with 6 people, and we get so high we don't even want to move. It's a different kind of buzz. Really "Slyder".......type buzz. (Your feet "slide" when you walk..... )

You see, this machine does 2 things: it removes/leeches EVERYTHING out.....then you go about your "isomerization" process. Key here is the Toluene process for removal of what I call "the green slime".....it is just contaminants...mostl y chlorophyll that makes the oil harsh which was it's downfall as a consumer product.....along with some really outlandish statements as to what you could do with the machine. It was sold as a machine you could put the crappiest pot in and get excellent oil and/or make hash which just isn't true.

WHile I've never been able to make great hash with it, I can add 1 gram of this oil to 4-5 grams of the low- midgrade bubble hash - I smash it in with a mortar & pestle, then put it all in a hash press, and wow.....it really kicks it up a notch and it's not messy...........

You have to remember that this thing came out in the mid 1970's and the only really applicable reference book you could readily get back then was "Cannabis Alchemy" which is still a good reference. There was no internet or other readily available good reference materials. Only a very few people ever stuck with this machine, and finally figured out how to use it and then clean the oil up just a few years back. You can now google up isomerizer and there is a picture of a lab setup as this process was invented/discovered back in the late 1800's!

If you just followed the instructions that came with the machine, you ended up with this dark green/brownish goo that would get you high, but it was unattractive and harsh. And oil is a bit messy anyway.....you have to prepare a place....I use a newspaper on a coffee table, dip a large paper clip into the oil, then hold it over some ashes in a pipe or bong, while holding the opposite end of the paper clip, heat it with a lighter closer to the end with the oil. IN a few seconds, the paper clip heats up, and a drop of oil falls onto your ashes, ready to smoke and is one nice sized hit. Hint: leave a bottle of rubbing alcohol close, it will clean any oil off your hands or pipe...whatever

It's gonna be a few months, but I'm getting ready to also make a run with some high grade trimmings AFTER making bubble hash....just to see what I get....because this process leeches EVERYTHING out of the leaves....nothing but brown hay left

Funny story.....back in the 70's, I showed this to a guy who liked the oil...he talked me out of some of the "hay" leftover leaves. I'm sure he was gonna add it as an "extender" to some crap he was selling.........anyw ay, he got pulled over on the way home and the cops found those leaves. They cuffed him and got him for a dui, but had to drop all drug charges against him because there was NO thc in the sample....nada....th ere are a half dozen cops still scratching their heads about that one after 30 years.........

ANyway, I'm not a chemist, but I know this machine works to make great oil. I've never been able to get it to do anything else. You can, however make up to about 20 grams of nice stuff in a long day if you stay with it. I do it while I'm doing chores around the house...you only gotta screw with it every couple of hours and 1/2of that time is waiting for it to cool so you don't lose your expensive alcohol when you open it...........

FYI, years ago (before bubble hash), I started just placing nice trimmings in a mason jar full of "freezing" alcohol for 10-15 minutes, shaking 3-4 times, then put it in a shallow dish on low on electric stove with a fan close by until alcohol evaporated. The cold alcohol would remove the trichromes etc, but not have time to leech into the plant and bring the chlorophyll with it. It's good, but you don't get much and it is wasteful of the alcohol.

ps. I only use everclear which is 190 proof = 95% alcohol. Before I ever start a run, I simply use the isomerizer to separate the alcohol from the 5% water. You just set a glass in the basket, put it on low and the alcohol comes out first, so then I start my run with 100% pure and "safe" alcohol. It tastes a lot better after isomerization than isopropyll, and I've never had the balls to try wood alcohol or acetone, though I've heard others do it to save a buck or 2 (shudder)..........

Anyway, it is a cool relic that actually does work, ya just need a little common sense. It is a high quality, sturdy machine. The damned thing cost me almost $200 34 years ago! Mine still has the ORIGINAL light bulb (heat source) in it and IT STILL WORKS!!!!! so good luck. I've rambled enough, but if anyone has questions, I'll be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.
I run the 98% alcohol through it first, the same as you, to refine it down, and it gets rid of that "Nasty" taste!! But I've never used tuolene. Could you give me a detailed run down of you making a batch of oil, from start to finish? I appreciate this immensely, I'm so excited I think I peed a lil bit!!!
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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OK....OK....lol..... ..I've been working for like 12 hours today, but I'll take a few pictures and run you through the complete process...just gimme a few days. I'm also trying to afford a real buchner funnel and start running the finished product in an alcohol "slurry" thru activated charcoal.........to REALLY clean it up....... I seriously think I could process (or maybe even reprocess???? Elric grabs the bong, tokes again and grins sooooooooooo evily.....) this with full strength Citric Acid, then run it thru charcoal 8-10 times.......I think I can make a much superior product than I used to...... I just pulled this out of the closet...hadn't played with it for a few years actually....it's time again!!! ....old girlfriend didn't like it even in the house....but I told her that if it ever came up missing...SHE would come up missing............. lol

Now she's gone and the dogs don't care...........What was that song? Thank God & Greyhound she's gone..........please Jesus at least 500 miles by dawn......

oh btw...your bulb is WAY BIGGER than the original!!!!!!!! Of course, as long as it doesn't ignite the oil, I guess it's ok......(I wouldn't run it much past medium heat though...lol) I'd have to put my bulb on some kind of tester that I don't have to determine the wattage.....but this bulb is probably 20-25 watts or so..........it doesn't take much in that small space to heat up..it is a straight incandescent..no coating...I'll take a picture of it beside a ruler so you can see it......

You can google up a separatory funnel.......400-500ml is a real nice size....and 250 ml is as small as I'd go....you can control your alcohol quantity just by reclaiming all but a cup or so of alcohol before you separate..... the funnel - it's just a cylindrical vessel, open on top. It tapers down towards the bottom, and there is a small valve at the "throat" (bottom) that you open to let liquid out, close it to hold. You can separate out layers of liquids to within a couple of drops +\-


I'll post again in a few days...hectic schedule right now......peace
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Talking Thanks elric

Thanks for the info, and thank you flamingnun, that pic is perfect. From the research I did on acid isomerization, sulphuric acid contains the proper chemical format (?) for the isomerization process in regards to the CBD profile, so your idea might not bear fruit, but I'd try it on a batch anyway. I have access to elbows and elbows of trimmings, silver leaf and sun leaf, and I stocked up on a case of 98% alcohol (meijer stopped carrying it!). Where can I get the acid? Like I said, I've been concentrating Dura-glo, and I just want to use the proper ingredients. Also, is there a way to isomerize lettuce opium? I've made some good stuff with just the lettuce, but I wonder.....anyhoo, thanks for the information, take your time, just please tell me everything, I have all winter to cook (TEEHEE).
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
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OK....OK....lol..... ..I've been working for like 12 hours today, but I'll take a few pictures and run you through the complete process...just gimme a few days. I'm also trying to afford a real buchner funnel and start running the finished product in an alcohol "slurry" thru activated charcoal.........to REALLY clean it up....... I seriously think I could process (or maybe even reprocess???? Elric grabs the bong, tokes again and grins sooooooooooo evily.....) this with full strength Citric Acid, then run it thru charcoal 8-10 times.......I think I can make a much superior product than I used to...... I just pulled this out of the closet...hadn't played with it for a few years actually....it's time again!!! ....old girlfriend didn't like it even in the house....but I told her that if it ever came up missing...SHE would come up missing............. lol

Now she's gone and the dogs don't care...........What was that song? Thank God & Greyhound she's gone..........please Jesus at least 500 miles by dawn......

oh btw...your bulb is WAY BIGGER than the original!!!!!!!! Of course, as long as it doesn't ignite the oil, I guess it's ok......(I wouldn't run it much past medium heat though...lol) I'd have to put my bulb on some kind of tester that I don't have to determine the wattage.....but this bulb is probably 20-25 watts or so..........it doesn't take much in that small space to heat up..it is a straight incandescent..no coating...I'll take a picture of it beside a ruler so you can see it......

You can google up a separatory funnel.......400-500ml is a real nice size....and 250 ml is as small as I'd go....you can control your alcohol quantity just by reclaiming all but a cup or so of alcohol before you separate..... the funnel - it's just a cylindrical vessel, open on top. It tapers down towards the bottom, and there is a small valve at the "throat" (bottom) that you open to let liquid out, close it to hold. You can separate out layers of liquids to within a couple of drops +\-


I'll post again in a few days...hectic schedule right now......peace
I have a vacuum system that hooks to your kitchen faucet, you make a charcoal slurry in the unit and use water flow to pull the oil through the slurry. It wastes a LOT, but the end honey oil is SOOOOOO pure, the buzz is just heart poundingly narcotic!!! People accused me of putting meth in it, it can be so powerful!
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Charcoal Slurry

well Scooter, it sounds that you are actually ahead of me as you've done what I've been thinking about doing for years. You're cleaning the oil up physically and I've been cleaning it chemically.......... I would prefer to NOT use toluene as the rest of my process (other than the necessary sulphuric acid that gets neutralized) is "chemical free".

If you are getting really clean oil, and it sounds like you got it down... (and I lose about 1/2 separating chemically) I'm not sure I'd even bother with the toluene..........

and btw...don't look at cleaning it as wasteful, because what you are cleaning out is not good for you, tastes bad and if anything, probably interferes with your high ..........

and it is true, people just don't believe this oil just comes from normal "regs", or whatever your slang is for regular mexican, columbian...whatever regular smoking pot...without additives. You don't need high grade stuff bristling with undamaged fresh trichromes to do this.

The delta 9 thc end product IS mildly psychotropic, so even your wealthy friends that "only smoke bud" will get ripped (hey man...oh wow...I'm SEEING COLORS when I blink!!!..... lol) and be begging you for some to take home with them........

Anyway, I'm gonna start working on a step by step...it sounds like you got it down....I think you're probably going a little overboard on some of your times, but you can't really overdo any of this...and as you know, the machine is completely safe.....right off the top of my head, I can't even figure out how you could cause an explosion or anything like that................ You can let it run for DAYS unattended.....lol

oh, I wanted to ask you.....does yours ever start making a slight "popping" sound from the tower? The first one I bought did, so I actually called the 800 number of the manufacturer and got the guy on the phone who DESIGNED these....(he said everybody else was at lunch so he answered the phone...) in 1980, and he said it was a design/material flaw.....I returned my original unit and they sent me a brand new one......and it doesn't "pop". (in a previous post, I incorrectly and accidentally (hey I was high) made it sound like I bought mine in 1974, but it was actually 1979......)

He told me the popping was just the hot gas coming up thru the tower, and the media inside the tower was sticking together, so the gas had to build up a little pressure, then would burst thru, creating a little "pop" when it did. He said it was completely harmless and would never be a problem, but sent me a brand new unit free of charge.....they even paid for the S&H for my unit back to California!

Anyway, I would certainly like to get a look at your filtration setup so I can fix up something similar without going overboard on the price of constructing one for myself (and keep it simple as possible......one of MAIN goals in everything I do......)

Then I'll make 2 identical batches, clean one chemically, then one physically and be able to give you a report on which works better as far as taste, potency (mmmm lets see....now HOW am I gonna check potency?......lol... ...I might have to try it many many times to know.....roflmao) and yield!!!! Your way sounds better (simpler and cheaper and 1 less chemical involved) than mine, so I'm VERY interested in this.........

oh, I also wanted to ask you how you make large batches.....when I make multiple batches ( a "bunch" ), I make a run, reclaim most of the alcohol, then put the (cooled) remainder (kinda thick sludge) in a sealed mason jar in the freezer (where it is dark and very cold), then run more batches, adding the resulting product to the mason jar when finished each time. After I run 4 or 5 large batches (you are correct, in the kinda flimsy original basket, you can get about 3 ozs chopped up product in there max) , I end up with 20-30 gr. of oil suspended in 3-4 cups +\- of alcohol. Because of the amount of oil, I use 3 drops of acid/cup (8-9 drops +\-), cook, neutralize, then reclaim the alcohol and end up with a LOT of oil to process.

I guess you could just keep running batches...leaving it ALL in the SSteel pot until you are finished...... I was just wondering which method (or other method) you use......

mmmm lets see....oh you get sulphuric acid at "Chemical Supermarket" online.

Now I'm excited!!!!!! Thanks for your post.....I'm super busy at work right now ....but I'll stay tuned....peace, Elric

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Old 10-29-2008, 07:24 AM   #33 (permalink)
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if you are too ghetto to buy a nice sep funnel (a decent 500mL will definitely cost over 100$ and probably over 150$) you can use a ziplock bag. its not so easy to use but it does the job.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:49 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Sep funnel

yea, that would work for some liquids, but I wouldn't want to put toluene in one............. anyway, here is a link for a rather fancy one...I only paid $80 (+ S&H) for my 400 ml pyrex....in the last year or two...the valve assembly on mine is way primitive compared to this higher end model....but works fine

http://orgchem.colorado.edu/hndbksup.../onesepfun.jpg
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:07 AM   #35 (permalink)
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yeah them fancy ones are the kind we use in labs. i stole a 500mL one because it wasn't on the list of things that should be in my drawers for the lab (so it was therefore not noticed). i got lucky because when my friend broke the 250mL they wanted 130$ to replace it.
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Slurry, continued

I haven't used the vac distiller in a few years, I'm not really sure where it's at. I know that for every gram of honey oil, approximately 2 grams of "junk" and 2 grams of honey are lost, I get 1 gram for every 5 grams of red oil I filter. I will have to pull it out and get it ready, I'm prepping my shed for running the Iso. I believe the other machine I spoke of (the one that exploded) used either Acetone or Tuolene for a solvent, was the one you described as "Junk", and I agree. From what I understand, the fact that the Iso creates a "zero oxygen environment" causes most of the cannibinoids to "convert" over to THC, BUT, the molecule is very unstable, and doesn't have a long life span. When the sulphuric acid is added, the molecule changes again to the delta-9 configuration and becomes more stable, but it's still best to keep it in a cold, dark, dry place ( like your freezer ). Anyhoo, take your time, I'm just happy to have another educated viewpoint. And I think the tuolene might be a less wasteful way to filter the oil, so I'm eager to try it. Many thanks, friend elric!
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Sulfuric Acid

Do I need to use reagent grade? The only type I see is fuming sulfuric acid, and it is 20% sulfur trioxide gas. At $450 a pop, that's gonna hurt. Is that the only way?
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:02 PM   #38 (permalink)
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DGR Industrial Products, Inc. - Chemical-Supermarket.com

Semi Conductor grade 99%+ Sulphuric Acid 500 ml = $34
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:04 PM   #39 (permalink)
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what about this? Sulfuric Acid, Reagent, A.C.S. - 500ml - eBay (item 120322125902 end time Nov-20-08 22:06:00 PST)
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:32 PM   #40 (permalink)
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yea...thats even better....and looky what I found on ebay....

http://i8.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/36/7b/bd_1.JPG

could be trouble........ only $100US
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