TheTrueShangsta

Hello all...been a while!

I haven't been around for a while, havent been farming as much at all lately myself...
But a friend of mine is starting a little grow and asked me for help...I figured why not reference hooka since you guys helped a load in the past..My friend has a medical license, btw.

She wants to build a cabinet out of wood to fit a specific spot in her home. The footprint she has to work with is roughly 3x3 and she has about 7' of height available...I drew up a rough plan and ran into a few questions, hope you guys can help out

I figure, she should make the most out of the space she has, and since she has 7'+ of height, she should make a double decker cabinet. Since she wants to use wood, i figure make a 3x3x7 frame using 2x4s and 1/4" plywood sheets on top of the frame. She already has a seperate seedling/veg room so this will be a flower cab only....So I wanna split the cabinet at the halfway mark, and have 2flowering cabs each 3'x3'x3.5' and i wanna see if we can fit a 400w HPS in each level, using mylar on the walls and the ceilings flat white. The lights will have to be air cooled of course, i assume.

The plan is to keep 2 plants on each level and keep them short with a lot of LST. I would consider myself pretty skilled with LST, I once grew a plant in a similar sized box which utilized ScROG and the plant was about 10" from soil to mature bud tops...and I got a decent harvest, considering the amount of heat stress suffered using 450w of uncooled HPS (i got about 6 ozdry)....I want her to achieve similar results for each of the 2 levels. My hopes are that if we can cool the lights efficiently, she should get around 8 oz from each level each harvest. I will be suggesting indica dominant strains...or sativas with short veg under scrog..

My questions mostly concern venting and cooling. How hot will a 400w get in that small of a space? I assume pretty hot...I plan on having 1 or 2 4" fans moving air around in each level, and a vent or 2 on the cab divider, with a 4" inline fan pulling air through both cabs and out of the top of the cabinet. Does she need a larger inline fan? How many CFM would be sufficient for spaces that small? I was also thinking......to help deodorize/ sanitize/ and move air around more...Maybe she could put one of those home air purifiers in each level as well...They are about 2' tall, and the fan speed can be adjusted...some also have optional ionizers or ozonators. Would this be a decent idea? She isnt concerned much about noise, she cares more about odor and heat. She works and doesnt want to come home to a burned plant, or a burned home...obviously.

Sooooo if anyone with experience, or some old heads wanna chime in...feel free. thanks

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TheTrueShangsta

Damn, I must have been gone for a while....People used to reply within the hour

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farmergiles

You are right about using the full 7` height imo, why not?

Two levels might be ok if your friend is ready for some serious low stress training and like you say you go for non stretchy strains.

400w HID on each level is a lot in that space. If you have cool tubes or other air cooled hoods you will maybe just about cope with the heat, but considering the shade will take up at least 6" of height, pots say at least 6" high and you have to leave some gap between the plants and the light (even if you have the heat issues sorted) then your max plant height is around 18". Doable but not easy. Also you will almost certainly need some room for fans and stuff as well.

I'd recommend a 5" inline extractor fan min for that space with those lights and air cooled hoods, preferably a 6".

Personally I`d either go for one level with one 400 or maybe one 600w HID- or two levels with flouros or maybe 2 250w lights.

The split level cab with 2 400w is a little too much IMO unless everything is kept perfect, both the ventilation and the training.

re Odour control, I'd put a carbon filter on the fan- best first line of defence against odour IMO.

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TheTrueShangsta

thanks FG,

Yea i was wondering if 400w would get too hot in those dimensions....to be honest i dont think she would have a problem keeping the plants under 18" with some help from me...but i don't doubt that it would still be an issue with the heat so high...

I know there are plenty of limiting factors, but which scenario do you think she would yield more in....a one level cab about 6' high with a 600wHPS or the same dimensions on the split level cab with a 250w HPS in each level? I would figure the advantages of the split level cab to be that you can put the lights closer, and have more plants/variety in the same amount of space....I just dont see the point of only making it a one level cab if she's got the height to work with....Without side lighting it just seems like a waste of vertical space to me..

Is there a wattage of HPS between 250 and 400 or is that a rare find? I suppose i could do a 250w in each and maybe supplement them with a 70w in each, or would that just be pointless?

all input appreciated..
thanks

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farmergiles

Far as I'm aware there is nothing between 250 and 400w sodium lights, not readily available anyway. You could have a double decker 250 set up with supplemental flouros, or one 400/600 with supplemental flouros down the sides.

I wouldn't bother with 70w HIDs, they arn't nearly as efficient as the higher wattages. 600's are the most efficient.

I think that the 400w double decker would work but you would have to have everything perfect. Maybe getting a clone of an indica type plant that you know isn't stretchy.

Bear in mind that with very high light levels there can be issues even if heat is taken care of. Closer than 6" will stress the plants for sure with a 400w.

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TheTrueShangsta

What about 2 150s in each level? that would give her a little more room to grow vertically... But would the lighting be intense enough?

I like the idea of 250s + flouros in each level, and that's probably what ill advise her to go with....The only reason I suggested the 70s, was because she currently has a small closet grow going on with 2 70w HPS + about 150 flouros, and her 3 girls are looking pretty nice...the 70s are about 5 inches from the tops and the flouros (t5s and CFLs) are about a half inch from the tops...I figure she will yield at least an ounce or two.

The 400s in each level is my goal, i want to get some more info and maybe find some good 400w grow logs, talk to the guy at the hydro store- but I would really like to see the 400s in each level work because i think that would obviously yield most. FG, are you mostly just concerned with plant height restrictions if she uses 400s? Like I said, I'm pretty confident in my LST and ScROGGing abilities...the lights have about a 8inch vertical profile, the 6 gallon soil container has about a 7inch profile... So I'll round up and say that's a foot and a half. then there needs to be about a foot between the tops and and the light so thats 2 1/2 feet...that leaves me with a foot of vertical growth height to work with.......I don't think that would be so hard, with an indica dominant hybrid...or even a sativa with a short veg.Like I said before I once vegged a haze plant for 3 months, then scrogged it with 450ws of combined HPS....and the lights were about a foot or a foot and a half away (not air cooled, and poor ventilation) and i yielded about 6oz dry.......
If bleaching or heat will still be an issue I'll probably have her go with 250ws plus flouro supplements, but if i can find a way, I wanna make the 400s work

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farmergiles

If you are confident about the training then it's worth a go with 400s; I like to max a growspace out myself . 250's would almost certainly be easier but at the end of the day, the more lumens you have the more bud you can grow.

With good ventilation and air cooled hoods it should be possible. They shouldn't bleach from the light as long as they are more than 6 or 7" from a 400w. Some strains may exhibit undesirable hemp- like growth under very high light levels, choose your strain carefully.
Would love to see some pics when you get going .

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TheTrueShangsta

Cool thanks FG

Yeah i guess i have a decision to make....But being that she has a little more than 7' to work with, we could maybe even push it to 8'......since we're gonna have to custom build the box and all, I think I'll probably end up going with the 400s....been seeing some great things done with 400s. So i guess if each level was 4' instead of 3.5 that would be better, right?

And do you think i should go with an open loop or closed loop system for cooling the lights? I figure if I pull the air straight from the box onto the bulb, and out the top I could kind of kill 2 birds with 1 stone by venting the box and coolign the lights. what do you think?

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farmergiles

If you can get 8' use it all.

Are you using a carbon filter? If so the order of the ventilation should be filter, fan, lights then exhaust out of the cab- which is what you mean I think. This way you should only have filtered air being blown out of the cab.

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TheTrueShangsta

the filter goes inside the cab? I have never used a carbon filter before, but I thought it went on last, on the outside?? where would I have room and how would I be able to mount it inside??

I'll probably be making a custom carbon filter....

I am rethinking this whole design, I may just go with 3x3.5x6 and use one 600w so that I don't have to battle with heat so much...Will post more later, but yea any info on carbon filters is appreciated....I am also still toying with thedea of putting an air purifier in the cab...which have carbon filters and ionizers..let me know what you think

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TheTrueShangsta

hxxp://w w w .rollitup. org/grow-room-design-setup/287247-400w-vs-600w-how-much.html


Check out the diagram someone posted on that page about order of ventilation...this is how I thought it was supposed to be, FG.....

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José

that's as low as it gets dude.. posting a link to another grow forum.. bahahaha

TheTrueShangsta

also, will I be losing light if I increase height? In other words, when we talk about light coverage, generall we're talking about a dimensional footprint.....but at what point does light escape from above the light? Do I need to put a layer of mylar right above the light or something?

Maybe I should ask it this way........What is the optimum height for a cab whose footprint is 3x3.5 and I plan on using a 600w HPS?

I still havent completly ruled out the double decker idea, but I definitely think one level will be easier to manage with heat and what not...

Opinions?

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TheTrueShangsta

sorry dude, yahookas return time just doesnt cut it anymore for my fast paced thinking LOL

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José

man, I wouldn't worry about it. 600w's have great lumen penetration. I really wouldn't worry about it, you can grow your plants 4-5 feet tall if you want. plants don't know the difference between a couple lost lumens, they don't even absorb that much light. plants truly only use 2-3% of the light they get.

farmergiles

I have run filters both ways before. They work both ways but carbon filters are designed to have the air sucked into them from the outside, not blown out through the inside.

On the outside of the filter is a white pre-filter sleeve thing made of some foamy cloth stuff.

It will work set up like in that diagram but the life of the filter will be shorter because any dust or whatever in the air will settle straight onto the carbon as the pre filter sleeve is outside of the carbon.

Of course you could incorporate some kind of pre- filter in the conduit but unless carefully set up this could interfere with the flow of air.

I think odorsok reckon their carbon filters are designed to work both ways but I've never used them myself.

Also the set up in the diagram uses 3 fans- you only need 1 fan and less fittings my way (passive intake) thus saving on setup cost and electricity bills.
I don't see a need for an active intake unless you have a large set up and the extra fan on the cool tubes seems entirely redundant.

That is not to say you should pinch pennies on ventilation/odour- control set up, it is probably the most crucial part of a cab set up and often overlooked.

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TheTrueShangsta

So FG, what would you do in my friends situation? I owe her a favor so I really want to get this cab made perfectly...I know she'll still have to dial in her grows for optimum results but I want to get her going with a head start. So what would you do with a footprint of 3lx3wx7h? From genetics to wattage and nutes, what would you do with a cab that size as a flowering cab?
A flowering cab only-never a veg room-even if she does ScrOG, we will be constructing pots that have screens 6" above the soil line so that she can have a "portable scrog" which can be moved from the vegroom into the flower room to start flowering immediately.

I would geatly appreciate any diagrams or pictures to help-I know what I'm doing for the most part, but I like to visualize projects in detail before starting...construct ion should begin within the next 2 weeks and I wanna have this done for her by the end of Febuary at the latest

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farmergiles

I like this graph.


I'd have one 400w sodium bulb with as much height in the cab as I could get. Carbon filter and fan is a must. I'd get a 5 or 6 inch fan.
Air cooled hoods are great if you can afford them but you could run a 400w in there without except maybe in midsummer. An air cooled hood would be best if you want to run a 600 in there.

Because you'd have extra height you could run stretchier strains without too much hassle.

If you want you can always add another deck later.

That's just what I'd do.

If you do want to do the double up-

Do consider a scrog- you could make a frame like you say so you can lift out each level as one unit. The screen would be ideal for keeping a nice even canopy- which will be critical.

Or you could have a SOG- make little plants to flower small.

You could still use a variety of different genetics, as long as you are prepared to do the appropriate training.

You would need to fit in the fan and filter- and a couple (min) of circulator fans and conduit for air cooled hoods. It's going to get cramped in there.

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TheTrueShangsta

Well I definitely think that a one level will be much easier to climate control and probably just won't be worth the effort.

But since it will no longer be a double decker, do you think I really will even need a cooltube?? I suppose I will have to air cool the 600w either way somehow...but I'm wondering if all the duct work and whatnot will be neccesary.. I figure I was probably going to have my friend buy something like this:

h x x p:// www. hidhut .com/catalog/600w-hps-digital-ballast-bulb-and-glass-tube-reflector-combo-p-406.html


But maybe she only needs somrthing like this, with a fan blowing on the light??

h x x p://www. amazon .com/Digital-Greenhouse-Light-Maxwing-Reflector/dp/B001U1MEUW

What do you think, is it worth getting the other one and attatching a fan to one side and ducting out the other?
I just want her to have a high yield and I'm starting to worry a bit about heat and odor.....

FG, how would I go about setting up the ventilation like you said, (Filter, fan, light, exhaust) with either of these lights? I don't see how i could fit a filter onto them, it just seems like it would make sense to have the filter right before it leaves the cab, (light, fan, filter, exhaust) idk....shed some light on the subject for me?

To completely eliminate odor here are my thoughts on order of ventilation:
(odor sock, light, fan, filter, exhaust, air purifier with ionizer) remember, sound isn't much of an issue.....I figure this will run a bit quieter than a vacuum cleaner.
Has anyone ever used an odor sock??

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TheTrueShangsta

which also brings to mind....

Is a glass barrier between the bulb and the plants detrimental to light efficiency?? I read somewhere, but cannot seem to find much on it now, that having a air cooled light with a glass lense, or a cooltube would diminish lumen and PAR output of an HPS....which is what originally made me think a cooltube might not be the best idea...I wanna get the plants as close to the lights as possible, but not if its only gonna recieve the same output as it would if it were a little further away with no glass lense...what do you think?

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