Galt

So I'm looking at everybody's touts and claims for radiant barriers and you'd think that they ALL won awards and they ALL have the best thing since sliced bread. Just as with all things where sellers want to separate suckers from their money, there are a lot of inaccuracies floating about. Separating the wheat from the complete crap is fodder enough for its own thread, but a couple of things regarding shielding still don't make sense to me.

Thermographic imaging measures the difference between an object's radiation and its surroundings or back ground signature (since all materials have at least some). This is at the core of the stealth airplane technology, trying to reduce/eliminate a radiation source to the point where it is invisible or just blends in. The sensing equipment then attempts to differentiate, with the more sophisticated equipment being capable of higher discernment at lower differentials. Now we all know that our government will spare no expense when it comes to spying on us, er.. I mean "protecting us from terrorists", so you can count on them to have the latest and greatest spy shit. Why not...they have an unlimited budget of our money right? And if that's not enough But I digress.

If you assume the worst, that they have the best, then what good does it do you to build an enclosure that blocks the IR/heat signature, but then put a fan in it that dumps the heat out of a small concentrated area right at the edge of that enclosed space? A cabinet for example with an barrier foil all over the inside, will reflect the majority of the IR back into the cabinet. It doesn't absorb it and change it into some other form of matter. It still has to go somewhere right? And since a well trained technician can view a high resolution thermograph and tell where there are moisture, heat and light anomolies, it seems that you're still "on the radar". Also don't think that living in a small town precludes your local LEO's from accessing this technology. Every utility company now uses pretty high grade shit of this nature for non-destructive testing and trouble shooting. The guy in the hard hat out front could be imaging the pole transformers, or maybe his company cooperates with Johnny....

Wherever your ventilation fans are dumping residual heat there will be a higher than ambient temperature (probably moisture too), and as such you will have created one or more of the very things that they are able to see. Specifically, an anomaly that stands out from its surroundings. Abasement or crawlspace grow room that leaks heat and/or moisture from crawlspace vents or basement windows is not at all uncommon. There isn't much legal activity that can explain that.

I have tried a variety of methods for dispersing the residual heat to attempt to basically keep it hidden until it can be conveyed to an area where it can be more readily blended into the ambient temps without creating a problem. The issue is that everything carrying this residual temperature eventually experiences some sort of heat gain that is still discernible with a high definition imaging device. Condensation of excess moisture or hitting the dew point while in transit also creates issues. Here are a few ideas and examples of what's been tried.

A lot of this is stuff that I came across or worked with in building high heat over clocked computers, radiant building heat and geothermal projects. I ain't no scientists and everybody needs to do their own due diligence whatever you try. Ultimately, buy your own imaging system and learn how to use it if you really want to know what they can see.

Warm, moist exhaust air loaded with easily identifiable aromatic compounds were pushed and pulled through perforated plastic ducts buried in the ground. The soil and ground moisture actually did a good job of dealing with the aromatics (stink), and did bring the exhaust temperature down to just a few degrees from ambient when the Delta T (temperature differential) between the indoor source and the outdoor exhaust, was less than about 30 degrees. This was also effected by the depth of the ground tube (about five feet) and the length of the run (100'). Unfortunately as the Delta T increased, (again -the difference between the exhaust and the outdoor ambient temp) the signature also becomes more apparent. In other words, when it's 70 F. in the grow and 70 F. outside...no Delta T...blends right in. When it's 70 F. in the grow and 20 F. outdoors the 50 degree difference makes anything getting dumped outdoors that's warmer than the 20 degree ambient very noticeable.

Air moving too fast due to too narrow a pipe/duct doesn't have enough time to dump all of its heat before reaching daylight again, so the velocity has to be adjusted to allow for the best heat exchange. Around here, at 5' deep, the earth stays pretty much in the mid 50 degrees F. year round. The temperature of the exhaust air is controlled and also remains fairly constant throughout the year, so at the right depth and flow velocity it seemed that the issue was resolved. Well that's about half right.

Whatever heat is dumped into the surrounding soil will eventually create a temperature differential. How much is a function of soil type and depth since the deeper the heat source, the more soil all the way around it that's available as a heat sink. Soil type (sandy, moist, etc.) also plays a big part in how well heat transfer takes place. This eventually dissipates the heat enough to eliminate a significant temperature differential that would be easily noticed relative to the surrounding materials' signature. It does not however completely hide it. there is still a difference, just a better disguised source. The second issue that is created is that of patterning.

Nature has certain things that it just doesn't seem to care for...like straight lines. One of the first rules of concealment is to break up the straight lines, so when my geometric layout begins to warm its surrounding soil, even though the heat signature is diffused, it would still present as a regular straight lined shape, albeit a fuzzy less well defined one. That is NOT something that you would typically see scanning an empty field in nature. Think crop circle.

I'll grant that the levels of surveillance sophistication and their deployment may not currently expose all of this to possibility, but the technology does exist and they do love buying it with our money.

I had occasion to witness a scanner demonstration given by one of the largest defense contractors in America. The device is quite similar to the newest crap used at the by the TSA, only much more powerful. At a distance of well over 200' the operator could record a high resolution video image that could be blown up ridiculously at a later date and viewed at their leisure. The detail was such that you could literally count the change in someones pocket. The really fucked up/scary part was that this was going to a trade show to be sold to buyers from all over the world to allow them to better spy on their own people, er again...I meant terror suspects. The device was designed and built, just by coincidence I'm sure, to look exactly like a functioning car park lamp.

I don't know what the limits of this particular device was in regard to outfitting a plane or chopper with it, but if it ain't there yet, their really fuckin' close. The energy wave that it uses I couldn't speak to but I believe it's some sort of electromagnetic wave because it does look right through shit like an Xray. Creeps me the fuck out!

As for invisibility, I've had good results insulating the crap out of everything, gathering the heat from the source and carrying it via insulated water lines to a remote ground loop, a la a reverse geothermal heat pump loop used in residential HVAC work. The issues are too numerous. Attention to detail is everything and adapting and building appropriate water blocks for the initial heat exchange is not really within the reach of most peoples budget or ability...but it does work. The ballast heat can be controlled and ultimately the life of the componentry extended using this approach because when properly done, you're basically rinsing the ballast with 50ish degree water to keep it cooler than normal, which in turn extends the life of anything electrical and makes it more efficient. Like I said, the bitch is in the details, and dialing in a good water block - flow rate relationship is tedium maximus. Maybe I'll start sellin' em on Ebay. "Overclock Your Grow!"

So back to a grow disguised to look like whatever. The only reasonable means that I can conceive of to help the issue is to try and blend in rather than hope for 100% invisibility. Try to mix the problem heat and moisture sources with enough traditional looking sources that you don't create the anomalies that their Watson computers at NSA can probably already pick out of a video clip. (Just the presence of all of the wrong key words in this post is probably enough to turn my yard into a black helicopter LZ...yeah I'm paranoid...that's why I'm not in jail).

Chimneys, boilers, water heaters and furnaces are already hot...just make them look a little hotter, thermographically speaking that is. Vent stacks for home plumbing, septic tanks, A/C condensate- sump pump discharges and pump pits are already sources of moisture.
In looking at some thermographic images it becomes apparent that electrical controls, ballasts, lamps, etc. all can be identified if you know what you're looking for. The physical relationship and location of these objects to each other also helps them to be ID'ed.

All in all a daunting task that I obviously have more questions than answers to. Just concerned that folks not think that just because they have some kind of space aged wrap on their gear that they not become complacent and think that they're safe. Just because some knucklehead selling radiant barriers said that it blocks everything don't make it so. Although it's not precise it does help identify a really bad leak. Put your cell phone in your "Stealth" tent or cabinet and try calling it. Now fold aluminum foil around it and see what happens. The new phones get a signal in some pretty hairy places (elevators, basements, etc.) that they never used to. It's not the same waves but I'm pretty sure that it's still a useful exercise.

Here's a couple of links for anybody interested in this stuff that I haven't already ZZZ'ed out with my patently TLTR post.

IR Thermography Primer

http://www.retrotec.com/large_buildi...20Barriers.pdf

Not pimpin' for the schools, they just had some interesting info.

This is an interesting read that brings to light some good considerations even though it's written by a Realtor (they're like lawyers and car salesmen, paid to lie, just about a different product).
Stiil some good info though.

RADIANT BARRIERS - ARE THEY BEING MISAPPLIED? VERY HOT TOPIC!!!

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Dandaweedman

Panda film.

That's a great post Galt, thanks for the added para
Growing has always been a crap shoot for sure.

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Jenna_Grows

that's some scary stuff. Not just for growers but for everybody. Makes the idea of some big magnetic pulse seem not so bad.

Great post Galt

Galt

That's just the tip of the head. Up until a decade or so ago the U.S. government didn't even acknowledge an entire agency, now called GeoSpatial, that controls all of the spy sats and space drones. When the government's own accounting and oversight people (GAO) audited defense spending they discovered that 25% of what the Pentagon got their tentacles into just disappeared with no explanation whatsoever. Gee, I wonder where that went?

They have geosync orbiters that can look right down through your roof and pick out whether a guy hangs to the right or the left. They have others that can tell what color nail polish you're wearing. Just check out Google Earth pics and imagine 1,000 times the resolution with the ability to stream video in real time from near space. Remember, the GPS that we now see in cars was originally developed to help us be more efficient at killing brown, yellow and black people that lived someplace that had shit that Exxon/Mobile/UniCal/Dole or whoever wanted.

The government agency partners in this military industrial complex/ hegemony circle jerk, provides funding to universities as research grants. Some of it comes from obvious participants in the march to world domination, but a huge chunk comes in disguise from the Dept. of Energy, Agriculture, State Department, you name it. The resources that the rulers have devoted to empire building would, if controlled and spent by sane sensible motherfuckers, probably eliminate poverty, educate everyone and keep us all healthy while eliminating the National Debt....but where's the personal gain and profit in that? Besides...it's not REALLY hegemony,...we're just helpin' to spread democracy (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). You know every time I hear some fucknut politician say that phrase, I swear I half expect Monty Python to come out and start singing the Lumberjack Song or some ridiculous shit. 'cuz what was said was so incredibly in your face fucking stupid. But they do it every day and people sit likes lumps of shit on the lawn and accept it without batting an eye. And they talk about stoners being judgment impaired? WTF are they smokin'?

The grants buy buildings and equipment that help develop better and better ways of killing people, and then once the defense contractor gets their new bomb, death ray or tic virus...some industrious grad student adapts the technology to a more mundane civilian use. The GPS that we get of course is no where near as accurate as the shit that the D.O.D. uses to stick bombs in people's arse, but that's essentially where we got it. Likewise most of our aerospace development, trauma surgery techniques, high tech fabrics and materials, and money for supercomputing. The money involved is absofuckinlootly incredible. You have to see how must licking, sniffing and pandering goes on when one of the generals that controls the money, visits a contractor. It's disgusting! They might as well just blow him at the door.

Anyway, we tested my buddy's house that we built, where we used rigid foam board insulation over the entire exterior sheathing assembly. The insulation board is faced with two layers of very thin aluminium foil and has worked extremely well in keeping his utility bills small (so's he's got more electricity to use for other more important shit) Because the foil is just behind the siding, but on top of all of the wood framing, there is no thermal bridging (the heat that radiates out along the face of the 2x4's in some of the images mentioned above) which is a major contributor in allowing surrounding objects to be identified. The house is like a giant Igloo cooler wrapped in aluminium foil. Because his ceiling/roof also has this he also has no cell phone reception unless he goes to a window. We only had access to a kind of low rez imager, but the envelope pretty much allows nothing but a read of the building's skin. The windows and a few construction joints showed leakage, but it was nuthin' like the ones where the heat sig from an indoor object was radiating out through the walls enough to make it identifiable.

So ultimately, I'm thinking' that that crazy dude walkin' down the street talkin' to three people at once that aren't there, wearin' his aluminium foil hat...he just may be on to something.

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Dandaweedman

Pretty amazing stuff. Nothing that surprises a guy tho.
Those crooked bastids

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Galt

A bill that was passed last year extended the powers of the Homeland Security goons (FBI, and other nonspecific domestic Schutzstafel - by extension DEA and State Stasi) to allow them to swear to the legitimacy of each other's wire taps and search warrants. No longer do they have to bother themselves with all of that going before a judge - probable cause - due process Constitution crap. Now Larry tells Moe and Shemp swears to it...all done, next victim please. Previous to this we still had SOME civil liberties, but now...fagetaboudit.

Part of what makers this so ludicrous is that the liberals/ Democrats/whatevers that were so energized by electing this hope and change carnie act, have gone along and voted for every idiotic, unConstitutional piece of shit legislation that the power hungry Republican/conservatives put before them...going all of the way back to Bush ver. 1.0. While the ruler's parties are taking turns at their gang banging of the public trust and wealth, high fiving each other as they pass the reins to and fro, we are continually sucked further and further in by their media propagandists into segmenting and dividing ourselves. There is only one true enemy amongst us and it is them, not the guy with the Bush sticker on his car or the Obama likeness on his. It is only when we rise up as one and slay these fucks that we shall again be free. (Of course I am only using the term slay in a very figurative way...)

Fuck'em all. Like H.L. Mencken alluded; "there comes a time when even reasonable men say it's time to roll up your sleeves, hoist the black flag and start slitting some throats", or something close to that effect. I'm way short of reasonable, my sleeves have been rolled up for a while, and the black flag is snappin' in the breeze of their blathering bullshit. Time to start takin' some heads!

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Jenna_Grows

I think the tail is waggin the dog

SmokeaJoint

Damn Galt, do you realize all the SHIT you just gave me to think about? No more running exhaust of of windows, damnit. I wonder if I could use the swimming pool as an inconspicuous heat sink?

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Some restrictions may apply. Void where prohibited

Dandaweedman

You have a swimming pool?

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SmokeaJoint

Above ground, but its 6' deep. Theres also plans for a koi pond in the future which aughta be about the same thing.

__________________
AMERICA: LAND OF THE FREE!
Some restrictions may apply. Void where prohibited

Dandaweedman

Very nice.

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Galt

Hey smoke, the pond thing works, depending on the heat and the size of the pond. We set one up where the exhaust runs through insulated pipe U/G to a pond that was designed to use a bog filter. Basically it's a two stage filter system that uses shallow water/marginal plants and their bed as a filter. Water gets pumped up and into the elevated rim of the pond where it filters back down through the cattails and such to an extremely wide, low volume stone waterfall. The nitrates from the fish pooh fertilize the bog, the bog filters out the solids and excess nitrates for the fish. Along the way, the dribbling sort of waterfall acts like an aeration and UV filtering device, and oh yeah...there's a 6" perforated drain tile built in behind the waterfall overhangs, that allows the exhaust air to filter through the soil/rocks and falling water.

Everything works just great as long as the water pump isn't down for too long at the wrong time of year (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). The line coming in U/G only has insulation above it (heat signature obsessive), but the whole pipe is covered with a soil fabric sock so that the air still contacts the earth along the way. It actually takes most of the day on a really hot day before any kind of scent could be detected even with the pump shut down, and that is easily masked by adding a few well chosen aromatic plants to scatter around the edge of the bog. Winter time temperature and humidity differentials add a new dynamic with icing but with a good southern exposure the rock waterfall acts like its own little solar battery (that was by accident, not design).

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)