Homemade Aeroponics System

TheGodDegree · 08-18-2011, 12:24 PM

I am in the process of building a homemade aeroponics system using eight 5 gallon buckets connected with 1/2" PEX tubing and fittings, each bucket equipped with two 180-degree shrub sprinkler heads to spray the roots for 45 seconds every 4-5 minutes or so. 45 seconds produces approximately a gallon of water in each bucket, each time.

I bought two 27 gallon reservoirs, one for the main solution, and one for drainage. I built it so the buckets are on a slight angle and higher than the drainage reservoir. I was considering using a 2245gph pump for the main reservoir. Do you think that is overdoing it?

Also, I thought about using an automatic bilge pump in the drainage reservoir to return the nutes back to the main reservoir. Have any of you heard of doing this? And do you think this is a good idea? Or do you think I should probably just buy another pump and put it on a timer?

Any input would be appreciated.

farmergiles · 08-18-2011, 01:15 PM

Long time no see man

Don't see why a bilge pump wouldn't work except-

Lol 2245 gph sounds like a lot. That's nearly a gallon a second.. Would the bilge pump keep up?

TheGodDegree · 08-20-2011, 11:40 AM

Haha, nice to be back. The reason why I was lookin at the 2245 gph pump is because I could get it for like $100. But I do think it is probably too much for what I need. I am also using shrub sprinkler heads which would probably come out too forceful on a pump that has that much power, and could damage the roots.

I'll probably go for around 1000 gph or even a little below.

Either way, I have to make a final decision soon, because I have a bunch of clones in the EZCloner right now with huge roots. I threw an airstone in there along with some Rhizotonic and Cannazym to keep them going for a few more days.

For a better idea of what I'm doing, this is the Growmaxx setup that I got the idea from:

Aeroponic Plant Growing Bucket System, The Maxx Power PRO 12 - YouTube

My setup is 8 buckets instead of 12, and is a little less high-tech looking, haha. They are also on stands.

Galt · 10-16-2011, 10:45 PM

So wha' happened?
If ya didn't pull the trigger on the pump, pressure is more relevant than flow rate. There are a lot of aerated hydro morphs bein' done that aren't true aero, so decide which one ya want, then pick your pump. True Aero basics require a 65+ PSI system pressure and emitters capable of producing 5-50 micron droplet sizes in a <2 second feed atomization followed by a 1 1/2 - 2 minute off cycle round the clock. That's a lot of starting and stopping so a quality pump is a must.

A lot of folks mistake wetting roots for getting and keeping them damp. The difference can be a 25-30% increase in productivity or more over true aero. The typical lawn and garden sprinkler/splash system will work, but it will also form water droplets running down the roots, which inhibits the potential for 100% oxygenation and consequent nutrient uptake. There are all kinds of plant physiology and fluid dynamics issues at work that are interesting but bore most people, so the best way of thinking of it is that it's the difference of running face first into a sprinkler and running into a fire hose. One you can still breath while the other is like water boarding. Same for your plants.

The pump pressure capability has to do with two issues; emitter restriction back pressure, and generating the velocity necessary for your atomized nutrient droplets to fully penetrate a well developed root mass. Again, this can be accomplished by soaking the mass with a deluge, but that becomes a self defeating process as the outer roots get soaked and begin forming larger droplets of water coming together and running down the outer roots.

Droplet size is critical for maximizing uptake and oxygenation. The latter is a directly correlating function of the former. If a soil system delivers 30% available atmospheric oxygen, a hydro system will usually be around 50-55%, whereas true aero is nearly 100% (supposing the root mass is suspended without any interference from net pots,etc. (another common use item that can also contribute to root pathogen development). The lawn sprayers still work, they just don't unlock the fullest potential. Hydro is a WHOLE lot more forgiving, and still easy enough by itself to fuck up.

Love the PEX and individual buckets (make sure to use black), but stick with gravity drain and a shield/false bottom to keep the roots from clogging. More pumps are just more shit to go wrong. If your pump quits plants die fast. True Aero works great as long as your equipment doesn't fail and you catch feed/pathogen issues quickly. Lower zone roots that may lay in accumulated nutrient solution may prevent death in a pump fail, but they will never develop as well as the roots in the misted zone, so try to make the drainage as efficient and complete as possible.

Anyway, good luck. The results are worth the effort if you have the time. Get some good quality test equipment if you plan on doing more. It'll pay for itself with the first save. Also plan on spending a lot of time with it during the dial in period. Like all things it requires a bit of tweakage.

TheGodDegree · 10-19-2011, 07:48 PM

Update: I decided to run 5 sprinklers that spray for 35 seconds every 3min. I am using 15 gallons of nutrient solution per 5 days (roughly), that drains back into where it came from. I scrapped the separate bucket and bilge pump idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galt

Lower zone roots that may lay in accumulated nutrient solution may prevent death in a pump fail, but they will never develop as well as the roots in the misted zone, so try to make the drainage as efficient and complete as possible.

Regarding the above comment, I am currently dealing with that problem. Technically, my drainage is done by gravity, but it is not as efficient as it should be. It does drain back into the reservoir quick enough to have enough water for the pump, but their is still remaining water in the bottoms of the buckets that have accumulated dead root material. To be clear though, I have had power outages and failures recently, and thank god I had excess water in the buckets. It probably saved my whole grow.

Anyway, the system overall is working very well. The root development is ridiculous. It is by far the quickest and best looking grow I've done. It is chunkin heavy right now. The only problems I've had were clogged sprinklers, but that is expected, and I just got a filter bag that should curb that problem. And I've also had a fungus gnat issue. But they seem a lot less problematic using the system I am currently using as opposed to Coco/CoGr, or soil. They have been dramatically reduced in numbers over the past 2-3 weeks. I will try to post pictures soon.

Galt · 10-20-2011, 05:27 AM

Net pots and grow medium are the principal breeding ground in these set ups for the gnats and pathogens. You can run a very, very low concentration of H2O2 to add dissolved oxygen as well as provide a sanitizing effect that should help, but DO NOT undertake its use lightly. It is an oxidizer similar to bleach, and in too high a concentration can and will kill everything, including your grow. The other thing is that you DO NOT want to use the shit off the shelf from WalMart. The concentrations vary wildly and they have stabilizers added that may prove incompatible with the biology involved. Locate the lab grade 35% solution, wear gloves and dilute, dilute , dilute. Great stuff, but can be quite dangerous. If ya slept through chem class like me you should definitely do some thorough due diligence on it first. Yellow sticky traps might also help clean up the gnats if they're not too bad.

You can add a false bottom of plastic screen to your root chamber to help keep the roots up out of the soup. Also, I would strongly recommend an uninterruptable power supply (UPS) back-up. Very cheap insurance over-all. Just do the math to make sure that you size it to accommodate a reasonable run time. My bud picked up a nice one for free that had a dead battery. He rewired with some deep cycle boat batteries that he already had, and ended up with a crazy looking but ultimately extremely effective back up for cheap.

If you water until there is water dripping off of your roots, you are for all intents and purposes running a highly oxygenated hydro set up. They still work fine and produce outstanding results, just not to the level of a fully optimized true aero system. Healthy roots are all the proof ya need that you're doing something right, but yellow, brown or dead ones in the bottom of the chamber are indicators that sumthin's up. These things can produce fantastic results, but when they go bad, they go directly to worse real friggin' fast, so like Barney Fife said... "nip it, nip it in the bud" figuratively speakin' of course. Leave the buds alone... for now.

I've gone to progressively finer filtration, and with well dissolved nutes I have no problem running with 150 - 50 micron filters set up in parallel and series. I'm using water filtration chambers though instead of straight bags, but it all works. I just happened to have this stuff layin' around already.

If you're feelin' adventurous try tweakin' your times. Instead of soaking it with a 35 second cycle try shortening it up and monitor how long your roots are staying damp. Also try to get a look at just how much water is dripping off of them after your current cycle ends. Once they're damp, the job is done. I know it seems antithetical but don't think of it in terms of "watering" your plant(s). What you're doing is trying to enhance a gas exchange by creating an oxygen rich environment, and so too much water is essentially working against that end after a point. As the root mass develops this becomes even more of a juggling act 'cuz it becomes more concerning that you get the droplets to adequately penetrate. I'm experimenting with some mechanical solutions to help that, but so far inconclusively.

Also try to monitor your temperatures. There's a sweet spot close to 70 degrees F. that allows for optimum nutrient uptake and gas exchange. Keep checkin' pH and nutrient parameters too 'cuz roots don't just die, sumthin' makes 'em dead.

Just a thought, but by running shorter feed cycles you also reduce the amount needed to circulate and maintain an adequate level in your reservoir. Might save you a few shekels. The danger being however that the smaller the volume the quicker and easier it is to get knocked out'a whack. The larger volume does have a certain buffering effect.

Good luck.

Galt · 10-20-2011, 05:38 AM

Forgot to mention, make sure that you have a back-up pump on hand just in case. If you're running one of the ubiquitous communist Chinese mag drive pumps, like many of their products, if they work at all - they tend to work quite well... right up until the time that they quit working altogether and without warning. I've had it happen with everything from high frequency spindles to compressors and pumps. Don't fall victim to Mr. Murphy's Maxims.

K10 · 10-20-2011, 07:23 AM

First off, I don't know much about growing aeroponically, although I do know a bit about commercial vegetative propagation. It seems to me that you would be better off running floramist nozzles. The way he's doing it in the video seems that it would just soak the shit out of everything and what you would really want is a fine mist covering a large surface area.

Galt · 10-20-2011, 07:55 AM

The ideal droplet size is about 50 microns. Foggers are too small, in the sub 5 micron range, and many of the sprinkler type emitters are too large. I've seen the Floramist nozzles in use to add humidity and provide evaporative cooling. I have have no idea of their droplet size, but they may be another that is just right.

TheGodDegree · 10-20-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K10

First off, I don't know much about growing aeroponically, although I do know a bit about commercial vegetative propagation. It seems to me that you would be better off running floramist nozzles. The way he's doing it in the video seems that it would just soak the shit out of everything and what you would really want is a fine mist covering a large surface area.

I agree. The droplets are nowhere near as fine as it should be. The sprinklers are decent but they are not ideal. I will definitely spend a little more money next time and switch it up.

Galt, to your point about pH and temps: I currently am using Canna Aqua, which is remarkably stable when it comes to pH fluctuations. I pH it down to around 5.2-5.6, which is recommended by Canna, and I don't go over 6.0. My temps are between 69-74. It usually stays around 71 degrees. I may have some issues when winter comes, due to the reservoir sitting on a cement floor. Not too much I can do about that now though, other than get a water heater maybe. But I'll just have to monitor it and see what happens. Hopefully I won't even need to screw with it.

I may try that screen idea on the bottoms though, because I am getting worried about the tendency for them to sit in the water with dead root material that has broke off.

By the way, this shit seems way faster than normal, which is great. The flower production seems to speed up significantly using this method. I am usually a Coco grower, so making this leap was pretty big for me. But I am continually impressed. I have had no noticeable deficiencies so far, except for some sort of problem with a certain strain that I always have problems with. It's basically a discoloration of lower leaves with small black dots (not mold), and then necrosis at the tips eventually. But it has always done this. I think it may just be my water, but I'm not sure. Doesn't really seem to effect growth though, and has gotten much better recently. So I'm not too worried about it. I have been told that it may be solved using a Cal-Mag supplement but I am weary about even using that shit. If it gets worse, I would consider it. But, what do you guys think? Any idea what the discoloration and subsequent death of the lower leaves may be due to?

Galt · 10-20-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGodDegree

I agree. The droplets are nowhere near as fine as it should be. The sprinklers are decent but they are not ideal. I will definitely spend a little more money next time and switch it up.

Galt, to your point about pH and temps: I currently am using Canna Aqua, which is remarkably stable when it comes to pH fluctuations. I pH it down to around 5.2-5.6, which is recommended by Canna, and I don't go over 6.0. My temps are between 69-74. It usually stays around 71 degrees. I may have some issues when winter comes, due to the reservoir sitting on a cement floor. Not too much I can do about that now though, other than get a water heater maybe. But I'll just have to monitor it and see what happens. Hopefully I won't even need to screw with it.

I may try that screen idea on the bottoms though, because I am getting worried about the tendency for them to sit in the water with dead root material that has broke off.

By the way, this shit seems way faster than normal, which is great. The flower production seems to speed up significantly using this method. I am usually a Coco grower, so making this leap was pretty big for me. But I am continually impressed. I have had no noticeable deficiencies so far, except for some sort of problem with a certain strain that I always have problems with. It's basically a discoloration of lower leaves with small black dots (not mold), and then necrosis at the tips eventually. But it has always done this. I think it may just be my water, but I'm not sure. Doesn't really seem to effect growth though, and has gotten much better recently. So I'm not too worried about it. I have been told that it may be solved using a Cal-Mag supplement but I am weary about even using that shit. If it gets worse, I would consider it. But, what do you guys think? Any idea what the discoloration and subsequent death of the lower leaves may be due to?

Cheap fix for the reservoir temp this winter; you could try a scrap of foam board insulation or just cut the side out of an old styrofoam cooler or shipping container packing. If the insulation isn't enough try a small aquarium heater.

If your water is suspect, and I would suggest it with an aero set-up anyway, consider going to an R/O filter system. If you have city water you can usually get a copy of their annual analysis. It's just a general indicator but it might help identify where to start looking. If it's your water though it seems that all of your plants would likely be effected. Me thinks it's more likely a fungus or bacteria. The actual disease black spot starts as black dots and the yellowing usually starts around the spot, not the tips, but ultimately the leaf dies as it weakens the plant. Got a microscope?

There are other issues that the water quality can effect that you really should think about before you start adding supplements though. Chances are the nutes your are using aren't that incomplete, but rather something is conspiring to lock certain nutes up and make them impossible for your plant to absorb. Temp is important, but dissolved solids, chloramine or chlorine (again you can get that from your city water supplier as to which they may use), turbidity and heavy metals, VOC's and other organics and inorganics all have the potential of complicating life if the combinations or concentrations are right. I'm not an organic chemist, but if your plants are suffering from some sort of deficiency I would try to I.D. the underlying culprit positively before taking any action against a symptom. Get a good water quality test kit and look at pH as well as iron, hardness, alkalinity, ammonia and maybe recalculate how much potassium you're running. Excess can make it more difficult for some plants to absorb calcium. there are others that can inhibit calcium uptake as well but I can't remember what they are right now.

I remember my chem teacher mumbling something about ions and anions and shit but I wasn't really payin' attention back then. Of course if he had told me that this was important shit that I might need to grow weed some day I'd have been a whole lot better motivated.

TheGodDegree · 10-20-2011, 08:22 PM

I do believe that my water is high in chloramine. I do not have any confirmation on this but I've always been told that, and you can smell it. It is not city water and I'm not sure if they offer a water analysis, but I will check. I will start to let it sit overnight at least from now on, which I should have already been doing.

The EC and PPM levels are relatively low though - I have checked them. They don't even show up on a regular Bluelab Truncheon PPM meter. I do not, however, have any analysis on the TDS. The thing is though, it only seems to occur on this one particular strain. Previously, when growing in Coco, I upped the A+B on the plant, along with lowering the pH, and that seemed to work, however it gets extremely bad in flower, to the point where almost all leaves were yellowing with necrotic edges and tips turning upward. It felt similar to a fallen leaf in Autumn. Obviously this is to an extent expected during the flowering period but this wasn't normal. It still produced nice quality chunks (around 4-5 oz./plant) but I know others that have pulled off around 8/plant on the same strain, without that visible leaf issue. They did, however, use a cal-mag supplement during veg, and I believe somewhat in flower. He was also using the same nutes I was.

Keep in mind, these plants are obviously clones, so this particular strain could have had some sort of disease that has been passed down or something. But you'd figure with a system like mine, that disease would spread to the other strains, right? It's an interesting situation.

Galt · 10-21-2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGodDegree

I do believe that my water is high in chloramine. I do not have any confirmation on this but I've always been told that, and you can smell it. It is not city water and I'm not sure if they offer a water analysis, but I will check. I will start to let it sit overnight at least from now on, which I should have already been doing.

The EC and PPM levels are relatively low though - I have checked them. They don't even show up on a regular Bluelab Truncheon PPM meter. I do not, however, have any analysis on the TDS. The thing is though, it only seems to occur on this one particular strain. Previously, when growing in Coco, I upped the A+B on the plant, along with lowering the pH, and that seemed to work, however it gets extremely bad in flower, to the point where almost all leaves were yellowing with necrotic edges and tips turning upward. It felt similar to a fallen leaf in Autumn. Obviously this is to an extent expected during the flowering period but this wasn't normal. It still produced nice quality chunks (around 4-5 oz./plant) but I know others that have pulled off around 8/plant on the same strain, without that visible leaf issue. They did, however, use a cal-mag supplement during veg, and I believe somewhat in flower. He was also using the same nutes I was.

Keep in mind, these plants are obviously clones, so this particular strain could have had some sort of disease that has been passed down or something. But you'd figure with a system like mine, that disease would spread to the other strains, right? It's an interesting situation.

The thing about chloramine is that it doesn't dissipate like regular chlorine when left to sit overnight, even when you add a bubbler. The main reason chloramine is used is because it is so much more stable than chlorine. It has to be neutralized by another chemical agent or physically filtered from your water. Again, if you're likin' what your seein' with aero so far, and you figure to stay the course, than I would strongly suggest an R/O system in the future. I think I might'a paid about $180 for a pretty fancy 5 stage that's not too horrible with the water waste, and makes a whole lot more than I need. Makes for better tasting beverages and ice cubes too.

If ya know somebody else workin' with the same strain why don't ya swap clones and see how theirs does for you and visa-versa. That would answer the question about the plant as a carrier at least.

I know that calcium is a big problem in terms of importance to the plant and the number of things that can screw with it, but the description you gave of your symptoms with the black spots kind'a throws me off. Calcium deficiency will cause the issues you experienced although the leaf spotting is usually brown and not black, but I've been lied to by plants before.

I found this rather old paper on calcium deficiency as it relates to nitrogen uptake and the reduction of nitrates. I don't recognize it but perhaps a Ca deficiency caused an N deficiency and that's what caused the black spotting? I'm just throwin' darts now. Good luck, and get yourself some R/O lovin'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00291-0154.pdf

TheGodDegree · 10-21-2011, 09:12 PM

The thing is, I have never noticed any signs of a nitrogen deficiency throughout all my cycles using Canna. The only things that occasionally show up are a slight magnesium-looking deficiency that can usually be solved by increasing the dosage of the A+B. Others throw the cal-mag in and get similar results.

To your point about whether they are black or brown, they could easily be dark brown rather than straight black. In fact, that is a great possibility. However, the dots are not the dominant issue when you look at the leaf. It is mainly the discoloration and the imminent death of the leaf that is the thing that stands out. The dots are kind of in the backround. I am switching up strains after this anyway. I'm done with that strain. It's a pain in the ass and it's not doing what I need it to do. And it's like a 90-day flower period, which imo, is not worth it for this particular strain.

The other variety, however, is flourishing. It's actually unbelievable, to be honest. By far the best results I've ever had.

On another note, I realized why one of the buckets was holding stagnant, dead water. It was because I am using 1/2'' PEX lines and one of the small, deformed hydroton pebbles ended up falling out of the net pot and getting stuck in the drainage lines. It wasn't the roots that were clogging it. I ended up cutting the bottom of the root base that has been sitting in water, due to their sub-par appearance. They were the color of piss, and I could smell a certain dirt-like mustiness that I knew right away was not proper. I also unclogged several sprinkler heads.

Galt · 10-22-2011, 03:27 AM

Hydroton pebbles? Next time try a neoprene ring and support from above. The whole pebble thing would actually make this even more of a Hydro set up, but if you like the results you're seeing - just imagine how blown away you'd be by something even better. More oxygen Scotty...

TheGodDegree · 10-23-2011, 08:26 PM

Yea, well my buddy had a huge bag of hydroton unopened, so I ended up using them instead. Like I said before though, there will be a few tweaks to this system before my next cycle. I have seen many things that need improvement, or complete eradication.

Regarding the roots hitting the bottom, do you think it is wise to cut off the very bottom portion that has formed itself into the shape of the bottom of the bucket, even if they look healthy?

Also, I would like to clean the insides of the buckets as they are developing kind of slimy surface. It's not really visible, but better to be safe than sorry. Do you think I should scrub them with a cloth using a peroxide/water solution? And if so, assuming I use 1 gallon of water, how much peroxide should I put in? I am completely unfamiliar with the application of peroxide as I was always told not to use it due it's effect on roots and components in my various additives.

farmergiles · 10-24-2011, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGodDegree

Regarding the roots hitting the bottom, do you think it is wise to cut off the very bottom portion that has formed itself into the shape of the bottom of the bucket, even if they look healthy?

Not unless the roots are clogging something up or caising a problem. The more healthy roots the better.

Quote:

Also, I would like to clean the insides of the buckets as they are developing kind of slimy surface. It's not really visible, but better to be safe than sorry. Do you think I should scrub them with a cloth using a peroxide/water solution? And if so, assuming I use 1 gallon of water, how much peroxide should I put in? I am completely unfamiliar with the application of peroxide as I was always told not to use it due it's effect on roots and components in my various additives.

Is the slime green? If so you this indicates light is getting to the nutes, which is bad, the green slime uses up oxygen and chokes everything.

Otherwise it is probably just a residue from the nutes. In this case it is not a major problem, though it is always best to keep everything clean.

TheGodDegree · 10-25-2011, 10:18 PM

Nope, the slime ain't green. It just felt slimy. Maybe it's not a huge issue. I do have to do something about my drainage situation soon though. It's becoming a pain in the ass and getting clogged somewhat frequently, especially with the large roots. That is why I've been cutting some. I really have no other choice right now.

To be honest though, some of these chunks are just ridiculous. Wicked dense, where they wouldn't normally be and I haven't even used Boost yet, mainly due to lack of funds. I'm only at like day 20 (btw, I count day 1 where green growth stagnates and serious pistils emerge. I don't count from the switch to 12/12. In that case it would be day 29.)

**Pharm Girl** · 10-26-2011, 03:38 AM

^ keep it up u guyz....

and i'll sticky it!!

Galt · 10-26-2011, 06:03 AM

Have you tried the false bottom yet? You can take a spare bucket and cut the bottom out, making it about 1/4-1/2" smaller radius than the inside bottom of your grow buckets. Stick a couple of short pieces of PVC to the bottom to keep it off of the bottom. Whatever you use I would cut or drill the bottom edge of your pipe supports to waste them down to where they only contact the bucket bottom at three points so nutes don't get trapped inside and putrefy. Do the same on top of that and lay a piece of plastic craft mesh over that if ya need to keep your roots from jammin' up the edges of that. Sounds crazy but cutting roots also tells the plant "hey... gotta grow roots", which of course is takin' away from what you're trying to accomplish upstairs.

This is why when trees are transplanted that have been in the ground for a while, nurseries will ideally dig the tree a few days before it gets moved. They ring the root ball with a tree spade or shovel to cut the tips of the feeder roots and then let it sit in the ground til moving day. This allows the tree start diverting energy to replacing/extending the damaged roots - a good thing for newly transplanted trees but not so much for aeroponc flowering weed.

Regarding the H2O2 use, again... do not use the off the shelf shit (usually about 3% concentration). Get ya some 35% and dilute to a 3% solution with distilled or R/O water. If you use tap water the H2O2 will react with the dissolved solids, chlorine/chloramine, fluorine and essentially be all used up before you get a chance to put it to work. The ready availability of the extra oxygen atom makes the compound pretty unstable which, is why it will react so quickly when it contacts other compounds. Use 3% for sanitizing/cleaning between crops, 1% for prophylactic feeding/treating (I only run that concentration for a half hour or so when replacing nutrient solution). If you notice improved vigor and want to run it more frequently I would suggest a 1/4% solution. Make certain that you monitor your pH very closely before and after introducing any additional O2 to the root zone, or CO2 upstairs. Dissolved CO2 in your water will lower pH and excess O2 will raise it.

For wiping the inside of your bucket down while you're still growing I think I'd stick with a 1% solution and see how that does for ya. Basically the more contaminants that are present, the more quickly the solution will react and expend itself, so it's not necessarily gonna work like a more concentrated oxidizer at that low concentration, and should pose no real threat to your plants.

Another thing to be mindful of is that any dead plant material will host bacteria that will break down the organic matter and form all kinds of subsequent bacteria that feed on that over time. This is part of the common aquarium cycle (ammonia>nitrification) that is to be avoided, so keep it clean. I'm pretty sure that the nitrifying bacteria are inactive below a pH of around 6, but you don't wanna be that high anyway, and ya don't want any dead organic material sittin' around. There are all kinds of other bacteria (aerobic and anaerobic) whose digestive and respiratory functions can give off anything from alcohols and acids to bases, so less contamination is always gooder.

The roots will get pretty insane, and it can be a challenge doin' the juggling act, but it's all worth it in the end.

I would still suggest playing with your timing some, if your timer can handle it. Soaking the roots will encourage more and longer water roots that only exacerbate the problem. The ideal is always damp, never dry and never dripping wet. This is where the droplet size and controls get a little nuts. Most of the cheaper timers don't give you that fine control in a recycle, I had to build mine (the alternative was stupid expensive). Now I can vary my on/off cycle in increments of 1/2 seconds if need be. Of course like everything else, fixing one problem always seems to create a totally new one.

I thought I was bein' slick adding a dump valve to relieve the back pressure on the pump between cycles (I run a higher pressure diaphragm pump). Thought that would alleviate the drip during the off cycle, and prolong the pump's life - which as yet remains to be seen. Because I run such a short 'ON' time, the unloading combined with my line run conspired to make me crazy 'cuz the first bit of the on cycle was consumed just recharging the line. Either way, the constant on/off and shorter cycles does seem to help reduce emitter clogging somewhat, but I now give them a quick wipe with vinegar before running the H2O2 cycle. Eventually I want to reset my nozzles so that I can quickly pop them off and swap them out. That way I can soak a set clean while the other set is gettin' used.

There's definitely a learnin' curve, but it sounds like your first shot out of the box is goin' great. My first couple just made a lot of compost.

08-18-2011, 12:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
TheGodDegree YaHookan Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 157 Thanks: 7 Thanked 67 Times in 46 Posts	Homemade Aeroponics System I am in the process of building a homemade aeroponics system using eight 5 gallon buckets connected with 1/2" PEX tubing and fittings, each bucket equipped with two 180-degree shrub sprinkler heads to spray the roots for 45 seconds every 4-5 minutes or so. 45 seconds produces approximately a gallon of water in each bucket, each time. I bought two 27 gallon reservoirs, one for the main solution, and one for drainage. I built it so the buckets are on a slight angle and higher than the drainage reservoir. I was considering using a 2245gph pump for the main reservoir. Do you think that is overdoing it? Also, I thought about using an automatic bilge pump in the drainage reservoir to return the nutes back to the main reservoir. Have any of you heard of doing this? And do you think this is a good idea? Or do you think I should probably just buy another pump and put it on a timer? Any input would be appreciated. __________________ "All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move." - Benjamin Franklin

08-18-2011, 01:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
farmergiles Yahookan Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sick of the hatred and the lies Posts: 7,779 Thanks: 2,272 Thanked 3,734 Times in 2,546 Posts	Long time no see man Don't see why a bilge pump wouldn't work except- Lol 2245 gph sounds like a lot. That's nearly a gallon a second.. Would the bilge pump keep up? __________________ Cultivate a stoic calmness *Fuck the Monkeys* Every Kind of Vice

10-16-2011, 10:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	So wha' happened? If ya didn't pull the trigger on the pump, pressure is more relevant than flow rate. There are a lot of aerated hydro morphs bein' done that aren't true aero, so decide which one ya want, then pick your pump. True Aero basics require a 65+ PSI system pressure and emitters capable of producing 5-50 micron droplet sizes in a <2 second feed atomization followed by a 1 1/2 - 2 minute off cycle round the clock. That's a lot of starting and stopping so a quality pump is a must. A lot of folks mistake wetting roots for getting and keeping them damp. The difference can be a 25-30% increase in productivity or more over true aero. The typical lawn and garden sprinkler/splash system will work, but it will also form water droplets running down the roots, which inhibits the potential for 100% oxygenation and consequent nutrient uptake. There are all kinds of plant physiology and fluid dynamics issues at work that are interesting but bore most people, so the best way of thinking of it is that it's the difference of running face first into a sprinkler and running into a fire hose. One you can still breath while the other is like water boarding. Same for your plants. The pump pressure capability has to do with two issues; emitter restriction back pressure, and generating the velocity necessary for your atomized nutrient droplets to fully penetrate a well developed root mass. Again, this can be accomplished by soaking the mass with a deluge, but that becomes a self defeating process as the outer roots get soaked and begin forming larger droplets of water coming together and running down the outer roots. Droplet size is critical for maximizing uptake and oxygenation. The latter is a directly correlating function of the former. If a soil system delivers 30% available atmospheric oxygen, a hydro system will usually be around 50-55%, whereas true aero is nearly 100% (supposing the root mass is suspended without any interference from net pots,etc. (another common use item that can also contribute to root pathogen development). The lawn sprayers still work, they just don't unlock the fullest potential. Hydro is a WHOLE lot more forgiving, and still easy enough by itself to fuck up. Love the PEX and individual buckets (make sure to use black), but stick with gravity drain and a shield/false bottom to keep the roots from clogging. More pumps are just more shit to go wrong. If your pump quits plants die fast. True Aero works great as long as your equipment doesn't fail and you catch feed/pathogen issues quickly. Lower zone roots that may lay in accumulated nutrient solution may prevent death in a pump fail, but they will never develop as well as the roots in the misted zone, so try to make the drainage as efficient and complete as possible. Anyway, good luck. The results are worth the effort if you have the time. Get some good quality test equipment if you plan on doing more. It'll pay for itself with the first save. Also plan on spending a lot of time with it during the dial in period. Like all things it requires a bit of tweakage. __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

10-20-2011, 05:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	Net pots and grow medium are the principal breeding ground in these set ups for the gnats and pathogens. You can run a very, very low concentration of H2O2 to add dissolved oxygen as well as provide a sanitizing effect that should help, but DO NOT undertake its use lightly. It is an oxidizer similar to bleach, and in too high a concentration can and will kill everything, including your grow. The other thing is that you DO NOT want to use the shit off the shelf from WalMart. The concentrations vary wildly and they have stabilizers added that may prove incompatible with the biology involved. Locate the lab grade 35% solution, wear gloves and dilute, dilute , dilute. Great stuff, but can be quite dangerous. If ya slept through chem class like me you should definitely do some thorough due diligence on it first. Yellow sticky traps might also help clean up the gnats if they're not too bad. You can add a false bottom of plastic screen to your root chamber to help keep the roots up out of the soup. Also, I would strongly recommend an uninterruptable power supply (UPS) back-up. Very cheap insurance over-all. Just do the math to make sure that you size it to accommodate a reasonable run time. My bud picked up a nice one for free that had a dead battery. He rewired with some deep cycle boat batteries that he already had, and ended up with a crazy looking but ultimately extremely effective back up for cheap. If you water until there is water dripping off of your roots, you are for all intents and purposes running a highly oxygenated hydro set up. They still work fine and produce outstanding results, just not to the level of a fully optimized true aero system. Healthy roots are all the proof ya need that you're doing something right, but yellow, brown or dead ones in the bottom of the chamber are indicators that sumthin's up. These things can produce fantastic results, but when they go bad, they go directly to worse real friggin' fast, so like Barney Fife said... "nip it, nip it in the bud" figuratively speakin' of course. Leave the buds alone... for now. I've gone to progressively finer filtration, and with well dissolved nutes I have no problem running with 150 - 50 micron filters set up in parallel and series. I'm using water filtration chambers though instead of straight bags, but it all works. I just happened to have this stuff layin' around already. If you're feelin' adventurous try tweakin' your times. Instead of soaking it with a 35 second cycle try shortening it up and monitor how long your roots are staying damp. Also try to get a look at just how much water is dripping off of them after your current cycle ends. Once they're damp, the job is done. I know it seems antithetical but don't think of it in terms of "watering" your plant(s). What you're doing is trying to enhance a gas exchange by creating an oxygen rich environment, and so too much water is essentially working against that end after a point. As the root mass develops this becomes even more of a juggling act 'cuz it becomes more concerning that you get the droplets to adequately penetrate. I'm experimenting with some mechanical solutions to help that, but so far inconclusively. Also try to monitor your temperatures. There's a sweet spot close to 70 degrees F. that allows for optimum nutrient uptake and gas exchange. Keep checkin' pH and nutrient parameters too 'cuz roots don't just die, sumthin' makes 'em dead. Just a thought, but by running shorter feed cycles you also reduce the amount needed to circulate and maintain an adequate level in your reservoir. Might save you a few shekels. The danger being however that the smaller the volume the quicker and easier it is to get knocked out'a whack. The larger volume does have a certain buffering effect. Good luck. __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968) Last edited by Galt; 11-21-2011 at 05:57 AM. Reason: had wrong filter sizes named

10-20-2011, 05:38 AM	#7 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	Forgot to mention, make sure that you have a back-up pump on hand just in case. If you're running one of the ubiquitous communist Chinese mag drive pumps, like many of their products, if they work at all - they tend to work quite well... right up until the time that they quit working altogether and without warning. I've had it happen with everything from high frequency spindles to compressors and pumps. Don't fall victim to Mr. Murphy's Maxims. __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

10-20-2011, 07:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
K10 Lazy lightning Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: out in the cold rain and snow Posts: 3,142 Thanks: 133 Thanked 337 Times in 184 Posts	First off, I don't know much about growing aeroponically, although I do know a bit about commercial vegetative propagation. It seems to me that you would be better off running floramist nozzles. The way he's doing it in the video seems that it would just soak the shit out of everything and what you would really want is a fine mist covering a large surface area. __________________ Just because you tie dye your wool, doesn't mean you're not a sheep. R.I.P. Alice D.

10-20-2011, 07:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	The ideal droplet size is about 50 microns. Foggers are too small, in the sub 5 micron range, and many of the sprinkler type emitters are too large. I've seen the Floramist nozzles in use to add humidity and provide evaporative cooling. I have have no idea of their droplet size, but they may be another that is just right. __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

10-20-2011, 08:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
TheGodDegree YaHookan Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 157 Thanks: 7 Thanked 67 Times in 46 Posts	I do believe that my water is high in chloramine. I do not have any confirmation on this but I've always been told that, and you can smell it. It is not city water and I'm not sure if they offer a water analysis, but I will check. I will start to let it sit overnight at least from now on, which I should have already been doing. The EC and PPM levels are relatively low though - I have checked them. They don't even show up on a regular Bluelab Truncheon PPM meter. I do not, however, have any analysis on the TDS. The thing is though, it only seems to occur on this one particular strain. Previously, when growing in Coco, I upped the A+B on the plant, along with lowering the pH, and that seemed to work, however it gets extremely bad in flower, to the point where almost all leaves were yellowing with necrotic edges and tips turning upward. It felt similar to a fallen leaf in Autumn. Obviously this is to an extent expected during the flowering period but this wasn't normal. It still produced nice quality chunks (around 4-5 oz./plant) but I know others that have pulled off around 8/plant on the same strain, without that visible leaf issue. They did, however, use a cal-mag supplement during veg, and I believe somewhat in flower. He was also using the same nutes I was. Keep in mind, these plants are obviously clones, so this particular strain could have had some sort of disease that has been passed down or something. But you'd figure with a system like mine, that disease would spread to the other strains, right? It's an interesting situation. __________________ "All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move." - Benjamin Franklin

10-21-2011, 09:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
TheGodDegree YaHookan Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 157 Thanks: 7 Thanked 67 Times in 46 Posts	The thing is, I have never noticed any signs of a nitrogen deficiency throughout all my cycles using Canna. The only things that occasionally show up are a slight magnesium-looking deficiency that can usually be solved by increasing the dosage of the A+B. Others throw the cal-mag in and get similar results. To your point about whether they are black or brown, they could easily be dark brown rather than straight black. In fact, that is a great possibility. However, the dots are not the dominant issue when you look at the leaf. It is mainly the discoloration and the imminent death of the leaf that is the thing that stands out. The dots are kind of in the backround. I am switching up strains after this anyway. I'm done with that strain. It's a pain in the ass and it's not doing what I need it to do. And it's like a 90-day flower period, which imo, is not worth it for this particular strain. The other variety, however, is flourishing. It's actually unbelievable, to be honest. By far the best results I've ever had. On another note, I realized why one of the buckets was holding stagnant, dead water. It was because I am using 1/2'' PEX lines and one of the small, deformed hydroton pebbles ended up falling out of the net pot and getting stuck in the drainage lines. It wasn't the roots that were clogging it. I ended up cutting the bottom of the root base that has been sitting in water, due to their sub-par appearance. They were the color of piss, and I could smell a certain dirt-like mustiness that I knew right away was not proper. I also unclogged several sprinkler heads. __________________ "All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move." - Benjamin Franklin

10-22-2011, 03:27 AM	#15 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	Hydroton pebbles? Next time try a neoprene ring and support from above. The whole pebble thing would actually make this even more of a Hydro set up, but if you like the results you're seeing - just imagine how blown away you'd be by something even better. More oxygen Scotty... __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

10-23-2011, 08:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
TheGodDegree YaHookan Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 157 Thanks: 7 Thanked 67 Times in 46 Posts	Yea, well my buddy had a huge bag of hydroton unopened, so I ended up using them instead. Like I said before though, there will be a few tweaks to this system before my next cycle. I have seen many things that need improvement, or complete eradication. Regarding the roots hitting the bottom, do you think it is wise to cut off the very bottom portion that has formed itself into the shape of the bottom of the bucket, even if they look healthy? Also, I would like to clean the insides of the buckets as they are developing kind of slimy surface. It's not really visible, but better to be safe than sorry. Do you think I should scrub them with a cloth using a peroxide/water solution? And if so, assuming I use 1 gallon of water, how much peroxide should I put in? I am completely unfamiliar with the application of peroxide as I was always told not to use it due it's effect on roots and components in my various additives. __________________ "All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move." - Benjamin Franklin

10-25-2011, 10:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
TheGodDegree YaHookan Join Date: May 2008 Location: USA Posts: 157 Thanks: 7 Thanked 67 Times in 46 Posts	Nope, the slime ain't green. It just felt slimy. Maybe it's not a huge issue. I do have to do something about my drainage situation soon though. It's becoming a pain in the ass and getting clogged somewhat frequently, especially with the large roots. That is why I've been cutting some. I really have no other choice right now. To be honest though, some of these chunks are just ridiculous. Wicked dense, where they wouldn't normally be and I haven't even used Boost yet, mainly due to lack of funds. I'm only at like day 20 (btw, I count day 1 where green growth stagnates and serious pistils emerge. I don't count from the switch to 12/12. In that case it would be day 29.) __________________ "All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move." - Benjamin Franklin

10-26-2011, 03:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
Pharm Girl Weeding the Garden.~ Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,534 Blog Entries: 13 Thanks: 2,996 Thanked 1,176 Times in 894 Posts	^ keep it up u guyz.... and i'll sticky it!! __________________ .....The Time has Come to 'Walk the Talk'.....~ ......A message for ALL from the Deer Tribe...~ It is a great journey — but you must do the walking and have the willingness to change and make the leap into the next level of human evolution. Become an inquisitive free thinking individual that takes responsibility for your life and the spiritual accountability to live life to the fullest. *Fuck the Monkeys*

10-26-2011, 06:03 AM	#20 (permalink)
Galt Si fecisti nega! Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: In the Great State of Denial Posts: 565 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 304 Thanked 316 Times in 208 Posts	Have you tried the false bottom yet? You can take a spare bucket and cut the bottom out, making it about 1/4-1/2" smaller radius than the inside bottom of your grow buckets. Stick a couple of short pieces of PVC to the bottom to keep it off of the bottom. Whatever you use I would cut or drill the bottom edge of your pipe supports to waste them down to where they only contact the bucket bottom at three points so nutes don't get trapped inside and putrefy. Do the same on top of that and lay a piece of plastic craft mesh over that if ya need to keep your roots from jammin' up the edges of that. Sounds crazy but cutting roots also tells the plant "hey... gotta grow roots", which of course is takin' away from what you're trying to accomplish upstairs. This is why when trees are transplanted that have been in the ground for a while, nurseries will ideally dig the tree a few days before it gets moved. They ring the root ball with a tree spade or shovel to cut the tips of the feeder roots and then let it sit in the ground til moving day. This allows the tree start diverting energy to replacing/extending the damaged roots - a good thing for newly transplanted trees but not so much for aeroponc flowering weed. Regarding the H2O2 use, again... do not use the off the shelf shit (usually about 3% concentration). Get ya some 35% and dilute to a 3% solution with distilled or R/O water. If you use tap water the H2O2 will react with the dissolved solids, chlorine/chloramine, fluorine and essentially be all used up before you get a chance to put it to work. The ready availability of the extra oxygen atom makes the compound pretty unstable which, is why it will react so quickly when it contacts other compounds. Use 3% for sanitizing/cleaning between crops, 1% for prophylactic feeding/treating (I only run that concentration for a half hour or so when replacing nutrient solution). If you notice improved vigor and want to run it more frequently I would suggest a 1/4% solution. Make certain that you monitor your pH very closely before and after introducing any additional O2 to the root zone, or CO2 upstairs. Dissolved CO2 in your water will lower pH and excess O2 will raise it. For wiping the inside of your bucket down while you're still growing I think I'd stick with a 1% solution and see how that does for ya. Basically the more contaminants that are present, the more quickly the solution will react and expend itself, so it's not necessarily gonna work like a more concentrated oxidizer at that low concentration, and should pose no real threat to your plants. Another thing to be mindful of is that any dead plant material will host bacteria that will break down the organic matter and form all kinds of subsequent bacteria that feed on that over time. This is part of the common aquarium cycle (ammonia>nitrification) that is to be avoided, so keep it clean. I'm pretty sure that the nitrifying bacteria are inactive below a pH of around 6, but you don't wanna be that high anyway, and ya don't want any dead organic material sittin' around. There are all kinds of other bacteria (aerobic and anaerobic) whose digestive and respiratory functions can give off anything from alcohols and acids to bases, so less contamination is always gooder. The roots will get pretty insane, and it can be a challenge doin' the juggling act, but it's all worth it in the end. I would still suggest playing with your timing some, if your timer can handle it. Soaking the roots will encourage more and longer water roots that only exacerbate the problem. The ideal is always damp, never dry and never dripping wet. This is where the droplet size and controls get a little nuts. Most of the cheaper timers don't give you that fine control in a recycle, I had to build mine (the alternative was stupid expensive). Now I can vary my on/off cycle in increments of 1/2 seconds if need be. Of course like everything else, fixing one problem always seems to create a totally new one. I thought I was bein' slick adding a dump valve to relieve the back pressure on the pump between cycles (I run a higher pressure diaphragm pump). Thought that would alleviate the drip during the off cycle, and prolong the pump's life - which as yet remains to be seen. Because I run such a short 'ON' time, the unloading combined with my line run conspired to make me crazy 'cuz the first bit of the on cycle was consumed just recharging the line. Either way, the constant on/off and shorter cycles does seem to help reduce emitter clogging somewhat, but I now give them a quick wipe with vinegar before running the H2O2 cycle. Eventually I want to reset my nozzles so that I can quickly pop them off and swap them out. That way I can soak a set clean while the other set is gettin' used. There's definitely a learnin' curve, but it sounds like your first shot out of the box is goin' great. My first couple just made a lot of compost. __________________ "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) _________________ "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

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