[verklingen]

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

right on. i see your point of view.

i don't believe you do, because you've written all the following as if everything i've said in this thread was disregarded. i'll do my best to oblige once more, providing some clarity in hope that we can forgo the endless dance of "i'm right and you're wrong because my beliefs say so" and actually begin some real discussion on this interesting topic.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

but let me ask you a few ?s.

are you eating meat currently?

would you yourself want to go through the experiences that the animals you (or others) are eating went through?

i don't eat much but i do eat meat. please don't make this a talking point, my words would carry the same meaning whether i ate meat or not because even if i were to give meat up again i would not disrespect another's choice to eat it. this is as much due to my beliefs as your disrespect for that choice is due to yours, and in fact i think it's time to talk a bit about my beliefs for the sake of clarity.

i believe that all conceivable experiences are innately devoid of meaning until a consciousness engages them. when this engagement occurs, the consciousness' definitions for the experience determine the way it is negotiated. for example, imagine a single father of an infant has an important meeting in the morning. while he is sleeping the child cries, waking him. is he frustrated by having to get up, or does he simply understand that this is his duty? that will depend upon the definition he holds for that type of experience: whether he consider it an offense or a delight or whatever. and in turn, that definition will determine his action and his action will determine the quality of the experience. in this way our definitions become a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy, determining our experience of life.

i also believe that like attracts like, which is to say our definitions for past experiences determine exactly what experiences we are likely to encounter. this is the wheel of karma, and it operates it by our attention. if we were offended in the above example, attention is given to the experience of a child waking us in the form of negative expectation. this attention serves to solidify such experience and the expected result of such experience in our life, digging a karmic groove of habituation. this principle applies to all aspects of our life, and our feelings/actions put it to work.

it's more than possible to stop relating the present circumstance to our past experiences and pop out of that groove. it all begins in the mind. . . nothing comes to fruition until we decide how to meet an experience. if we go with "the tried and true" ego-driven methods, we get more of the same and maintain the progression of our karma. if we accept the experience and define it as providing a positive result (rather than act against it, thereby creating a negative result), we loose the bonds of karma and begin to take conscious control of our existence.

this can be done from no other state than a state of understanding and acceptance: understanding that no experience or circumstance means anything more than what we allow, and accepting that the provision of meaning defines the experience for us and serves to welcome more of that experience into our life.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

it seems to me those who are violent--directly or indirectly--are always hypocritical because no being desires to get hurt, abused, wounded, and killed. why do that when you can eat so many other things?

here you are projecting your own desires/fears and assuming they apply universally.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

so nonviolence is a spiritual/moral principle--not a belief.

like i said earlier, everything is an idea and a belief is simply an idea you feel strongly about. you are right to say that nonviolence is A spiritual/moral principle because spiritual and moral principles differ from person to person.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

i will warn against excessive mental proliferation, because the mind can be used to justify any number of abominable things....like the intellectual philosophies of nazis, racists, various warmongers. rather heart and consciousness must guide.

you're exactly right. what would you call excessive mental proliferation: believing that all experiences are neutral or believing that eating meat is a negative experience because meat is a bastardized version of the sun's life-giving energy? your justifications serve to debase a large percentage of the entire world. . . how is that any different in quality to the debasement of nazis, racists, and various war-mongers?

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

i say meat-eating degrades the consciousness because aggression and consuming the hormones and vibes in the stuff--as well as doing the deeds of capturing, imprisoning, and killing shape the mind, dull subtle sensitivity, and give rise to rage and aggression. any young child would naturally be horrified by watching these acts. these acts cultivate brutality and killing. those who kill animals are much closer to killing other humans and prone to do so.

again you are using your conception to paint a universal conception of experience.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

meditation/zen is all about clearing the mind of all these endless thoughts and rationalizations and seeing through to our original pure nature--which one will find is one of gentleness, respect for other life forms, and nonviolence. but excessive (conditioned) thoughts, language, and rationalizations dull this pure awareness.

but that respect runs short when someone chooses a behavior you disagree with, eh?

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

so im not really addressing belief thats an endless issue. im talking about practice. with nonviolence all beings concerned win.

all beings concerned "win" no matter what the case, as all experience is neutral. this thread is about oneness, a lack of division. thinking in terms of wins and losses creates a sense of division (a sense which can be explored eternally, as our entire history bears solid testimony). there is no division, only energy influencing energy. if we pay mind to what we influence and what influences we welcome, it's all winwinwinwinwin no matter what the circumstance.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

negative growth and development toward 'the dark side does occur. just consider that over the course of some people's life, some become more kind, wise, and enlightened, while some become more violent, mean, and aggressive/angry. we can guide this procees through our choices of lifestyle and association etc...

again this is merely a semantic difference between us. i simply don't believe in negative growth.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

i dont feel im debasing others. it is all in how you take it. only one with a humble and open mind inclined toward increasing morality and also experimentation can learn and advance. i just realize that people do take time to learn grow and develop in stages...this process may even take many many lives in various forms.... but at the pinnacle of this development is the best that is found in this world: nonviolence toward all life forms; receiving subtle knowledge of the universe through meditation, purification, etc; non-possessiveness; silence and equanimity...and the other transcendental enlightened qualities that have been associated with the buddhas/jain teachers.

ANYONE can learn and advance, in whatever way they choose. there's no one-way road to enlightenment. . . there are as many roads as there are people. also there is no pinnacle of development, only an endless unfoldment of mystery and revalation: a continual realization of oneness. saying who and in what way one can and cannot advance is working against this realization.

Originally Posted by JainVeganBuddha

through this path of learning and association i have cultivated qualities of sensitivity and friendship toward all beings, understanding of oneness with ALL, skill in karmic navigation, and a distaste for violence in all its forms. i accept and respect those that have not accepted or come to that point, but only wish to share the subtle yet profound benefits of such with those interested. i guarantee every person, little creature, and animal that i help, befriend, set free, care for, spare the life of, give good vibes to...etc appreciates that.

i respect the gradual ascent, but how can i deny the profound universal truths of nonviolence and liberation?

that's awesome man! i'm glad you've found what works for you. just please understand that what works for you does not necessarily work for everyone. i would also remind you that feeling distaste for something keeps the door to that experience wide open and ensures the feeling keeps walking through.