[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by snapshot

Just place a question mark at the end in place of the period.
I don't see how we've proven that.

And I still don't know exactly what you're talking about when you say "God"? It doesn't make logical sense to me, which is why I don't know. How can there be a creator of that which has always existed (a creator of infinite regression)? And how can something come out of nothing? How can something come out of nothing if something always existed and there never was nothing? If there is a creator of an infinite regression, then it's not really an infinite regression, since there is a starting point.

Would you say that the fact that I don't believe in that which you, or any other person who says they believe in God, makes me an atheist?

I feel like I'm being labeled an atheist by theists simply for not believing what they believe. If someone believes in something that I don't understand or that doesn't make sense, that doesn't mean I have faith; to me, it means there must be a contradiction somewhere, either in my thinking or theirs which is impossible to accept without some sort of irrational reasoning.

I don't consider myself an atheist, with regards to Sam Harris. I'm just trying to understand via reasoning. At its base, from what I've gotten so far, it seems like you're saying God is That Which Is, since I can't understand anything more than that because it all seems illogical:

So, from my point of view, these are logically bulletproof arguments against any sort of creator argument, since a creator, through logical consistency, also needs a creator; since infinity negates a starting or an endpoint; since something cannot come from nothing.

I'm not saying I know there is no God. I'm saying I don't have enough information to process, which would be able to lead me to begin to consider such a conclusion (that God doesn't exist). I am saying that logical contradictions cannot exist, and thusly any definition of God with a contradiction, I can safely say, cannot exist--nor, certainly, could one argue such a case. This is why I say that faith comes after thinking is ceased. If I believe there is a God, even after these considerations, I have to have ceased thinking about these considerations, because they are blocks which shield me from accepting the concept of God logically.

I'm not saying what you feel is wrong, or that your feelings are invalid, but I do think that, even though questioning may have led you to your belief, it is ultimately feeling, not thinking, which keeps people tuned into that belief.

we are human, our minds cannot wrap itself around the concept of God...sure we were created in his image, but our children were created in our image... if they were orphaned at 3 and 20 years down the road were told these are your real parents, you would have a tough time believing that...
Our brains are programmed to believe what we've been taught throughout the experiences in our lives, and have a hard time changing beliefs set in stone..something had to get the ball (humanity) rolling, and along the way people have picked and choosed which is the correct belief..THEY ARE ALL RIGHT (save the athiests), there is no possible way to know which religion is the right one to salvation....I think the J/W's 144,000 have long since been filled up, so where do the true believers go now?Every religion has an aspect of truth in it, so there is no wrong religion, except if your athiest, and you refuse to go with the angel guides upon immediate death, your soul will be trapped in-between.....not a good place to be, as I have witnessed souls trapped on this plane making ordinary household items defy Newtons laws of gravity...enjoy the time we have on earth, because for all intensive purposes, it is the only guarantees we have...

matthew