Odds n Sods

[farmergiles]

Originally Posted by Dandaweedman

Here is a view out the front window today...

That looks pretty bleak man. Hopes you is keeping warm.

[Dandaweedman]

It rained then started snowing.
Spent a fair piece of the day avoiding the more aggressive drivers doing the running about thing. But overall a nice day spent with some nice smoke.

[Dandaweedman]

Originally Posted by Pharm Girl

Looks quite similar here too.

I guess we may as well get used to it.

[Dandaweedman]

Stolen, shhhhh

Originally Posted by yerbero1 of Canna Cabana

Scientific Approach for the Cannabis Researcher

The clinical potential of cannabis is a tremendous leap forward for patients. Nevertheless, “marijuana continues to be classified as a so-called Schedule 1 drug, alongside LSD and heroin. As such, it is defined as being potentially addictive and having no medical use, which under the circumstances becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy (Scientific America, Marijuana Research, Current restrictions on marijuana research are absurd, November 22, 2004)." Hence, as a response to the lack of support for utilizing cannabis to heal ones aliments, many cannabis aficionados grow their own medicine.

The proliferation of cannabis breeding continues to become widespread in communities throughout the world. With the lack of support for cannabis, the future of the seed will rely more and more on the common breeder to breed their own seeds. One will find thousands of cannabis breeders throughout the world from closet breeders to more sophisticated breeding programs.

Cyberspace has become a major communication avenue for cannabis aficionados to learn about breeding the future generation of seeds. However, too often, one hears about an assumption on a cannabis plant obtained from ones own biased views. In response to this problem, this article was aimed at providing the cannabis breeder with basic tools to reach intended outcomes.

Genetic Diversity

First and foremost, the plant breeder must educate themselves on the vast diversity of forces behind the seed. The whole genetic history of a plant is stored in the seed. The genetic engineering of a plant is as diverse as a human fingerprint. In plant breeding, you will find a well spring of endless possibilities. No two plants are exactly alike. Thus, a multitude of factors come into play from both external and internal forces that makeup the seed. A general knowledge of the forces behind the seed is an essential component for a successful plant breeder.

A basic component for the breeder will be to make an attempt to trace the origins of the seed. Is the seed genetically engineered toward outdoor-or-indoor environments? What soils allow the seed optimum performance? Is the seed more acclimated for hot or cold climates? Hence, the more you know about the origins of the seed will allow you to better understand the seed and meet your intended outcomes.

"A short cut to plant breeding is to look for seeds that have well-established traits and thoroughly formed habits (Burbank, Luther (1921) Plant Breeding Volume I, P.F. Collier & Son Co., pg.178)." The best way is to look for stored up traits in a seed as compared to what could take years in searching for your own traits. "Emerson (p.59) indicated that some traits can be fixed and permanent in any stock, by painting and repainting them on every individual, until at last nature adopts them and bakes them into her porcelain."

Research Question

The first component of a research program is clearly defined goals. What are you looking to create in your breeding efforts? Are you looking for a particular type of high? Are you focusing on developing hardy plants resistant to disease? Are you looking for plants better acclimated to your area? Are you looking to increase weight? Are you looking for a type of color or flavor? Thus, begin with the end in mind.

By utilizing basic research tools serves the community by increasing the efficiency of plant breeding efforts. By utilizing goals as a catalyst to breeding will keep one centered on intended outcomes. On the other hand, the uneducated plant breeder could severely pollute the gene pool by crossing bad traits as well as good traits in the future seed.

Open Pollination Method

Mother Nature's basic tool to create the next generation of seeds is the open pollination method. This process would be the primary tool used when trying to preserve a strain. One advantage of the open pollination method would be to maintain the vast genetic diversity of the specimen in future seeds. In trying to preserve a strain, the open pollination method would be an effective tool to preserve a strain.

Random Polycross

This process is utilized to pollinate at random as many specimens as possible. Though, this method is not desirable IMHO to zero in on specific traits, one will have a diverse population in future seeds. One benefit would be to make as many crosses as possible with very little work. Strength of random polycross breeding would be to capture the vast diversity of traits in the seeds with as little work as possible. A weakness of this process would be obtained a varied population with a multitude of endless possibilities. And, some bad traits might be continually reproduced utilizing this method.

Recurrent Mass Selection (RMS)

The RMS breeding method looks for the best individuals (superior specimens) to increase levels of desired traits. The breeder selects the best individuals for breeding. One would make numerous selections of superior males and females from a multitude of plants. One crosses a superior male with superior female showing desired traits as a continuous active process that leads to producing superior plants. This process is repeated for as many generations as needed to reach desired traits. In this process, the inferior types are discarded and superior types are retained and crossed with the existing elite lines. The progeny go through a series of testing for performance on desired traits. Subsequently, the testing and retesting produces a consistent line of seeds.

Crossing specimens that are out of kind from one another, such as indica and sativa, will produce more radical changes in future seeds. Crossing within kind, such as an indica crossed to an indica will lead to more definite ends. Nevertheless, the key factor is the skills and goals of the educated breeder in reaching intended outcomes. Both crossing in-kind and out of kind have definite benefits to the seed.

Plant Cloning

Cloning is a process of making seeds from an identified male and female. The breeder subsequently keeps the clone mother and father in vegetative state until ready to make seeds, or one could make a multitude of cuttings from the clone mother and father and continually make hundreds of seeds for years on end. One advantage to keeping clone mothers and fathers was that you are aware of the seeds the clones will produce. Many longstanding seed banks keep clone mothers and fathers to produce thousands of seeds with similar outcomes.

For a novice breeder, first obtain the seeds with heredity desired. Then, grow a large selection of seeds and search for superior specimens. Then, you experiment by crossing, for example, male plant A with Female Plants A,B,C, and D and make seeds (or visa versa). You keep the clone mother and father in vegetative state until you identify the male and female that produced the seeds closer to your intended outcome. Subsequently, you save the clone mother and father to keep making seeds that you desire. IMHO, on the one hand, one might say that the cloning method severely cripples the ability to work with a diverse gene pool, on the other hand, this method continues to be at the leading edge of making seeds closer to intended outcomes.

[Dandaweedman]

still stolen

Originally Posted by yerbero1 of Canna Cabana

Cubing

In breeding terms, cubing consists of breeding for specific traits in a special plant by backcrossing with its progeny. In this process, one identifies with traits desired. Then, one continually backcrosses the progeny of males back to the clone mother. In theory, with each backcross to the mother plant, the breeder will get seeds that are closer to the mother plant. Although, one will never obtain seeds that are identical to the plant mother. The cubing process works as follows:

1. First, you need to identify the plant mother you are trying to hone in on traits desired and keep her in vegetative state. Take cuts of the clone mother and your ready for breeding;
2. First Backcross: a desired option would be to breed the mother plant to the brothers, father, or children. You grow the seeds and collect the pollen to pollinate the identified mother clones;
3. Second Backcross: Take pollen obtained from step 2 and pollinate the mother clones;
4. Third Backcross; Take pollen obtained in step 3 and pollinate the mother clones;
5. One can continue this process until satisfied with the offspring obtained from the seeds made.

The cubing process was not as easy as one thinks. Existentialists would argue that one can not completely narrow down the possibilities in a plant to mathematical terms. Hence, in agreement, the genetic and environmental diversity of a seed carries a multitude of endless possibilities. Nevertheless, cubing consists of continually backcrossing the siblings to the identified mother in search of fixed traits. With each backcross, each batch of seeds produced will produce specimens with traits closer to the identified mother. In the end, similar to a human finger print, the cubing method will not capture the absolute genetic diversity of the identified mother. Preservationists would argue that a weakness of this method was that by breeding for specific traits, a multitude of other traits could be breed out of a particular specimen. However, a breeder can not discount the benefits of the cubing method as another important tool for plant breeders who are looking to breed for specific traits of a particular plant.


Other Methods

There are many methods that one could utilize in plant breeding. "No breeder (Burbank, p. 24) has a patent on his methods." Nevertheless, the more you know about a plant, the better you will be prepared to reach your intended outcome in making seeds. Some breeders emphasize the utilization of specific males in breeding. On the other hand, other breeders focus on the females in breeding. Other's focus on late flowering males and females for breeding and so forth. The creation of feminized seeds has gained popularity as well. In the end, the search is for basic scientific tools that lead to reaching your intended goals in making seeds.

Eclectic Approach

Plant engineering is not completely understood. There continues to be a well-spring of unseen factors and endless possibilities to plant breeding. Thus, what might work for one type of seed might not work for the other? For example, some specimens might be more adaptable toward the cubing or crossing to others specimens while others might not. Some indicas might perform better in climates with specific soils and ingredients, and the same soils and ingredients might work the opposite for other specimens. Some plants might be more suitable for indoors while others not. Hence, the breeder must first make an effort to learn and understand a particular specimen as compared to hundreds of specimens. Some plants perform better in crosses while others don't. Each breeding method has its strengths and weaknesses. Hence, an eclectic approach is more applicable to plant breeding. One must keep an open mind and observe what the plants are saying.

Conclusion

In summary, by adhering to simple yet fundamental principles in plant breeding will assist the breeder in meeting intended goals. The future of the seed will become more and more dependent on the common breeder to breed their own seed. Henceforth, the breeder will need to educate themselves on the holistic components to plant breeding. The intelligent breeder will open doors of infinite potential of the seed. Once the key to her mysteries are unlocked will allow the seed to express her true beauty; the future of the seed (she) depends on you.

[Cerebro]

Cant say I've heard much talk about cubing at yhka, thanks for bring some.
What's your thoughts re F1 vigour vs benefits of cubing?

[Dandaweedman]

Well, the hybrid vigour is when you cross 2 unrelated plants and the resulting offspring grow like mad. And they do too.
Cubing is taking a plant line and crossing the babies to the mother/father until you get results as close to the plant you originally had as you can get (usually).

short form

[Dandaweedman]

homozygous---Relating to a cell that has two identical alleles for a particular trait at corresponding positions on homologous chromosomes?

Ummm, you are way over my head here.

Homogonous? -- Having all the flowers of a plant alike in respect to the stamens and pistils

I am going to assume more of the latter. If you cube it enough the notorious "they" say that it will become homogonous with the parents (clone used in the cubing) traits.
But like you have said, when you do the next seed run you could be fine, or not. But subsequent seed lines could turn into a veritble hodge podge of what have you.

[Pharm Girl]

Last edited by smallarmsfire; Today at 04:20 PM.

Time to light one up........

[Dandaweedman]

You have just proven the absolute impossibility of successful breeding based on any best possible traits being truly stabilised in this day and age.

heh heh heh

Feel good? j/k

But what you typed is quite true, even saying that the male is not really like the female in that it also has dominant and recessive traits. And it will have all the recessive traits good and bad.

And what I typed is also quite true. It would have to be a legal commercial crop for that to become reality.

Looked at it from the breeders eyes, they would not care much for stability past the first cross if going from clone parents. Then the first seed run would have much less variables come out than say the 3rd or 4th run.

What were we talking about again?

[farmergiles]

Originally Posted by Dandaweedman

It would have to be a legal commercial crop for that to become reality.

Lack of such sucks. Things happened so fast in the eighties when there was more scope.

[Dandaweedman]

And I think thats the attitude to take. It's kinda fun getting a silk purse out of a sows ear, or a flop from legendary seeds. (shows that negative streak I may or may not admit to )

Reminds me of todays music scene, too fast paced to support the market place for long.

[Dandaweedman]

Originally Posted by farmergiles

Lack of such sucks. Things happened so fast in the eighties when there was more scope.

Ahhh The 80's.
When skunk was unmistakable, gas could be bought without an armed guard and the women were still trusting...
someone

[farmergiles]

In many ways the eighties sucked but skunk was good.

Idk my weed history as well as I`d like to but I read an interview with Ben Dronkers somewhere saying breeding programs in Holland have been severely limited in scope in recent years, the implication being that`s why there has been relatively few interesting strains from Holland compared to a decade or two ago.

In the same interview he was talking about designing a giant hemp harvesting machine.

[Cerebro]

I thought it was cool when tga/subcool was trying to uncover recessive genetics.
You forgot to mention them saf, tt,ss,hh. If you think about cc for colour i think you'd find purple to be recessive, same for some of those candy tastes etc. If you're looking for TTSSHH then you look into the skunk#1 pool etc, but looking between the gaps is where you find the gems imo. If you got a male that was ttsshh that would be pretty awesome. But, unfortunately, we aren't growing peas in a lab. We have T1, T2, T3 etc out there to confuse things and I hear Arnie has plans for more.

[SublimeStylez]

Originally Posted by smallarmsfire

well you're onto something. i'm working from a pretty limited knowledge base as well , always always learning (or trying to!)

but imagine a few different mothers. consider that they all appear exactly the same.. if we assigned them a few desirables, lets say Taste, Smell, High.

If we look at how these traits appear on the chromosomes that are passed along to offspring, we would still find differences between these seemingly identical plants.


Each would carry a pair of alleles for each trait, ... they could be dominant (T) or recessive (t).

Mum1 looks like Tt, SS, Hh
Mum2 looks like Tt, Ss, Hh
Mum3 looks like TT, SS, HH

they all appear the same on the outside, because they each share the dominant Taste Smell and High traits that we are after.

Well.. only Mum3 is going to pass along consistent results to offspring. If you were attempting to cube from Mum1 or Mum2, thing probably wouldn't work out as planned.. and as you problem-solved, you'd find that even if you used the same male successive times, your progeny would show variation in your desired traits from the Mother plant, because she cannot breed true with heterozygous genes. Irregardless of how stable the males used were, you'd never see consistent results because of the variation in the makeup of the mother.

So breeders are essentially forced to flower out crops using different males to determine variation & then hopefully use a means of elimination to distinguish what traits the mother breeds true for, versus what is only represented in her based upon a single dominant gene that may be hard to match up in any future male stock.

you just blew my brain through the back of my ass.

Srsly

[Dandaweedman]

I would be up for that... I'm pretty sure Jenna would beat me there

Sounds like a commune of hippies there was at a town close to us back home. We used to go visit and buy weed when I was quite a bit younger.
Laid back is the word

[Dandaweedman]

Originally Posted by SublimeStylez

you just blew my brain through the back of my ass.

Srsly

And that's the long way

[Dandaweedman]

Originally Posted by smallarmsfire

there are good leaks from everyone to read.. dj short, chimera, steve, sub.. lots of experience to share.. hope some of you had the chance to see Sannie's thread before it was deletd.

Sannie from sannies seeds had a thread here?

[farmergiles]

Originally Posted by smallarmsfire

you know i think the best a guy on his own could ever hope for is to be an "educated" chucker, but if we assembled a team of the best Yahookans here & got us a lab over in Espana ya never know

I`d be there like a shot.