an interesting time to be alive

[tedkennedy]

Originally Posted by Waves

no offense but this barely makes sense

do you really think we've only been around for 3000 years?

i understood what he said to mean we only have a written history since the past 3000k years or to 3000 bc, which is actually correct.

the old testament primarily takes place in the years from 3000-1 AD. and archaeological evidence has supported the truth of many of the stories (and disproved others).

i am taking a middle eastern studies class so i know a lot about it...

behaviorally modern humans have been around for about 90k years when the atatl (an ancient weapon that helps you throw a spear better than with your hand) was invented and you started seeing stuff like cave painting. it wasnt until the bow was invented that we started becoming socially advanced and developed agriculture, formed towns, and started writing shit down. basically you can actually trace the movement of the invention of the bow, and whereever the bow was found an agricultural revolution shortly followed.

it is because once you have the bow you can project coersive threat and you force non-kin to cooperate. once you have the bow, people started living in stationary settlements, shortly after agriculture developed.

a common misconception is that agriculture preceded sedentary livestyles, however this is proven false. It is THE BOW that led to sedentary settlements and then the adaptive revolution follows due to larger groups of humans working together and exchanging information. and im not making this up its pretty well proven theory.

[matthewmunari]

What I meant to say is humans have been around since 3000 b.c., so we're roughly 5,000 years old

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

Something, or someone interferred and taught us how to harness electricity, the combustible engine, telephone, etc.

Originally Posted by Waves

and they built the pyramids too! humans just CANT be THAT smart right!

to PERFECTLY align the three pyramids of giza with orion...within a 1/10th of a degree, with no instruments to guide them.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by tedkennedy

i understood what he said to mean we only have a written history since the past 3000k years or to 3000 bc, which is actually correct.

the old testament primarily takes place in the years from 3000-1 AD. and archaeological evidence has supported the truth of many of the stories (and disproved others).

i am taking a middle eastern studies class so i know a lot about it...

behaviorally modern humans have been around for about 90k years but it was only till the atlatl and more so until the bow was invented that we started becoming socially advanced.

i took it to mean that he was claiming we have only been on this planet 3000 years. if thats not what he is claiming then my bad.

as for whether the old testament happened or not, i really doubt most of the stuff happened. like god destroying two entire cities and giants existing that young boys could go take slingshots and kill to save their tribe and stuff.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

What I meant to say is humans have been around since 3000 b.c., so we're roughly 5,000 years old

yup. waves is right.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

to PERFECTLY align the three pyramids of giza with orion...within a 1/10th of a degree, with no instruments to guide them.

they had plenty of instruments. the egyptians were way more advanced than we think they were. archaeologists have found instruments and tools from egypt that they still cant explain. they simply have no clue what they are. they had batteries man. they could create electrical currents! to make the leap from "the pyramids are perfectly aligned to the stars in the sky" to "aliens must have come built the pyramids" is not a leap i am willing to make, considering our minimal knowledge of their culture.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

What I meant to say is humans have been around since 3000 b.c., so we're roughly 5,000 years old

ok then. this is where i sit back and am amazed at myself for spending 20 minutes seriously conversing with someone who believes humans are 3000 years old.

[tedkennedy]

Originally Posted by Waves

I also find this hilarious. So since we've had the same cognitive abilities for thousands of years that means that we should also have the same technology? i dont understand.

waves is correct, i couldnt find the post whom you quotes but i will add to WHY this phenomeon occurs. because after all if we have been genetically and physiologically the same human for the past 90k years then WHY all of a sudden are we so advanced?

sigh... i already explained why the technological explosions have occured but i will say it again. please read it so i dont feel like a dousche because its actually pretty interesting and very true. im not making this shit up.

HUMAN TECHNOLOGICAL EXPLOSION IS A DIRECT RESULT OF OUR ABILITY TO PROJECT COERSIVE THREAT. every time a new novel weapon is invented throughout history it was followed by an adaptive revolution followed by an adaptive stasis until the next better novel weapon was invented. WITH THE INVENTION OF THE NUCLEAR WEAPON AND SIMILIAR EXTREMELY EFFICIENT WEAPONS you have a huge unit of humans working together (GLOBALIZATION) and pooling their knowledge leading to huge technological leaps.

[tedkennedy]

you guys are posting so fast i cant keep up.

yea matt... "homo sapien" as we know it has been around for about 200k years. behaviorally modern humans didnt occur until about 90k years when the atatl was invented

before we invented the atlatl we were basically nothing more than apes. we used rocks and sharpened rocks and that was the extent of our technology. then with the atlatl we became slightly smarter. then the bow made us start forming towns.

[tedkennedy]

i wish you guys would fucking comment of the fucking theory i presented, i found the shit mind blowing...

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by Waves

they had plenty of instruments. the egyptians were way more advanced than we think they were. archaeologists have found instruments and tools from egypt that they still cant explain. they simply have no clue what they are. they had batteries man. they could create electrical currents! to make the leap from "the pyramids are perfectly aligned to the stars in the sky" to "aliens must have come built the pyramids" is not a leap i am willing to make, considering our minimal knowledge of their culture.

cause they DID find things that required some form of battery to make a current...


also, what about the chichen itza crop formation? (i think its chichen itza) theres a bird, a phoennix, and a few others that skip my mind at the time... they theorize they were using them as landing beacons, or meeting spots, those formations were intended to be looked down upon!
time to smoke

[Waves]

ted- i dont see our progress in terms of "threat presented- threat neutralized- threat presented- threat neutralized" and on and on until we get to the A bomb. i see it as a natural evolution of concepts and ideas. I dont think we are ever in an 'adaptive stasis' as we are constantly making new discoveries, constantly exploring and generating novelty in many areas not specifically limited to military progress. in fact i would say the military progress is a result of our technological progress, not the other way around. before we invented jet planes we invented hot air balloons.

[tedkennedy]

Originally Posted by Waves

i took it to mean that he was claiming we have only been on this planet 3000 years. if thats not what he is claiming then my bad.

as for whether the old testament happened or not, i really doubt most of the stuff happened. like god destroying two entire cities and giants existing that young boys could go take slingshots and kill to save their tribe and stuff.

well obviously...

but there is alot of the old testament that reads simply like a history book. there were a shit load of different civilizations in the middle east from 3k bc- 1 ad and they were all fucking killing each other and shit.

the old testament and other old documents are the only sources we have. obviously we take them with a grain of salt and we either prove or disprove whatever we can by cross reference them with other sources as well as ancient artifacts.

Originally Posted by Waves

ted- i dont see our progress in terms of "threat presented- threat neutralized- threat presented- threat neutralized" and on and on until we get to the A bomb. i see it as a natural evolution of concepts and ideas. I dont think we are ever in an 'adaptive stasis' as we are constantly making new discoveries, constantly exploring and generating novelty in many areas not specifically limited to military progress. in fact i would say the military progress is a result of our technological progress, not the other way around. before we invented jet planes we invented hot air balloons.

it has nothing to do with threat present and neutralized. it has to do with the fact that humans are like animals and like any animal they have a non-kin conflict of interest. every individual simply cares about his own genetic information. until you can have a weapon that allows you to easily kill an opponent without risk you have no reason whatsoever to communicate with non-kin because you are ultimately in competition for mates and resources. it is only until you have a weapon that can project co-ersive threat that you can set up an environment where humans work together for fear of being killed. would our society ever work if there werent police men with guns? quite frankly, NO.

im telling you , whether you agree or not, everything i said has been proven with strong fossil record evidence. after the atlatl was invented there was an adaptive stasis where humans were nothing but hunter gatherers for another hundred thousand years. then the bow was invented. then villages and city states rose. the idea of the nation didnt come around until about the period the gun was invented. is this a coincidence? .... people are always making advancements you are correct, but you are talking about a whole different ball game. you are talking about modern times, where we already have the system and society set in place. do you think people would be making advancements if there wasnt an extremely stable environment caused by the coersive threat that the police and military impose? no, it would be chaos. you would be more interested in fighting for your life, and you sure as hell wouldnt share your innovations with your neighbors because they would be your enemies

OK even further. think about pre-nuclear bombs. think about world war 1 and 2. quite literally the world was at war. do you think germany would share its information and inventions with the united states? do you think the united states would share its information with germany? hell no.

but what happened once the nuclear bomb was invented. war suddenly became a lot more dangerous. there was the cold war for a while , but eventually that crumbled. and now all countries for the most part freely exchange information and inventions. is it a coincidence that now we are just that much smarter and more innovative? no...

i dont think you can really argue with anything i just said.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

cause they DID find things that required some form of battery to make a current...

Yep, and there are many different forms of tools from antiquety in different museums sitting there collecting dust with no explanation as to what they are. humans are smarter and more resourceful than we give ourselves credit. i dont put it past ancient egyptians, considering their cultural longevity, to come up with some fascinating stuff that would blow our minds today. the thing about the egypt batteries though, is that you can TELL they were made in ancient egypt. if there had been some kind of extraterrestrial technology being used we would have found some evidence of it and it would probably look like nothing ever seen on earth. but we've found nothing like that. just a bunch of really cool tools that we have no clue how they work.

also, what about the chichen itza crop formation? (i think its chichen itza) theres a bird, a phoennix, and a few others that skip my mind at the time... they theorize they were using them as landing beacons, or meeting spots, those formations were intended to be looked down upon!
time to smoke

lol, yeah the nazca strips is what you are referring to i believe. you sound like me a couple years ago when i was reading Erich Von Daniken, lol. i think theres alot of currently unexplainable stuff that went down in the past but im just not willing to make the leap to extraterrestrial contact of any kind without evidence.

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by Waves

Yep, and there are many different forms of tools from antiquety in different museums sitting there collecting dust with no explanation as to what they are. humans are smarter and more resourceful than we give ourselves credit. i dont put it past ancient egyptians, considering their cultural longevity, to come up with some fascinating stuff that would blow our minds today.

lol, yeah the nazca strips is what you are referring to i believe. you sound like me a couple years ago when i was reading Erich Von Daniken, lol. i think theres alot of currently unexplainable stuff that went down in the past but im just not willing to make the leap to extraterrestrial contact of any kind without evidence.

Von Daniken is what I was meaning, but u knew it somehow

Ted, your question I think I answered right off the bat, there is gonna be no 100 years in the future...extinction through an overtly, money hungry gov't, willing to do anything to keep its secrets, even kill its own...i.e. The Russian leader before Putin....I forget his name, they poisoned him and he became grossly disfigured as a result from it...I believe this is it pal, this is the last 100 years.....We couldn't even go from 1900 - 2000 without 3 or more major wars...but the real threat is the sleeper agent in our country just waiting for the right time when the coast is clear...

[matthewmunari]

Has anyone here seen zeitgeist? the beginning of the film explains alot of what we're philosophising (sic ) about..

[Waves]

Originally Posted by tedkennedy

well obviously...

but there is alot of the old testament that reads simply like a history book. there were a shit load of different civilizations in the middle east from 3k bc- 1 ad and they were all fucking killing each other and shit.

the old testament and other old documents are the only sources we have. obviously we take them with a grain of salt and we either prove or disprove whatever we can by cross reference them with other sources as well as ancient artifacts.

Yeah i agree. taken with a grain of salt you can find alot of truth in the bible. as with any religous text that exists.

it has nothing to do with threat present and neutralized. it has to do with the fact that humans are like animals and like any animal they have a non-kin conflict of interest. every individual simply cares about his own genetic information. until you can have a weapon that allows you to easily kill an opponent without risk you have no reason whatsoever to communicate with non-kin because you are ultimately in competition for mates and resources. it is only until you have a weapon that can project co-ersive threat that you can set up an environment where humans work together for fear of being killed. would our society ever work if there werent police men with guns? quite frankly, NO.

this brings up some aspects of evolutionary theory that i personally disagree with. i dont think humans need to be ruled by fear, i dont think we need the ability to kill each other easily to get along. i think our environemtn has PROMOTED such behavior and i DO think that sometimes it ends up happening the way you describe, but not most of the time. why do people become social workers or why do people do volunteer work or why do people help at old people homes if they are only interested in passing on their genetic information? evolutionary theory just leaves out too much for me to agree with it.

im telling you , whether you agree or not, everything i said has been proven with strong fossil record evidence. im telling you, it is already proven.... we have the fossil record to prove it. after the atlatl was invented there was an adaptive stasis where humans were nothing but hunter gatherers for another hundred thousand years. then the bow was invented. then villages and city states rose. the idea of the nation didnt come around until about the period the gun was invented. is this a coincidence? .... im telling you waves... its already proven.

i dont think these things are coincidences at all, i think they fit in with the technology being developed at the time and the progress happening at the time. do you think if guns had never been invented we would have never invented the idea of a nation? no, we would still be living in geographical areas that we have created borders out of and labeled different things. we just needed to get to a point where we KNEW the environment enough to section it off into different areas that are labeled. before the gun came around we hadnt even populated the entire earth yet. simultaneously we had to get to a point where we KNEW our environment enough to take the materials in it and fashion them in specific ways to create a gun. it all fits together in a natural progression is what im arguing, military novelty is tied into that progress just like any other area of our lives, social, political, economical, etc. basically you are arguing that technological development is the result of response to threat. im saying technological advancement is a natural progression for a species, it would happen if a threat was there or not. another way