an interesting time to be alive

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by xMSx

Do you have any theories on how this triggered verk? im interested now

to be honest, no. i can only read the effects of it. my experience of these effects, how my consciousness works, etc. is all subjective, and therefor very personal. but i can say that it seems to me that we have a very important distinction between animals: the ability to develop behavior which is not coded within our dna. i don't mean the way physiological evolution works, which i understand to be a specimen developing a successful new behavior which is then selected for. that behavior also becomes coded in the dna, which serves to evolve the species. i mean behavior that can turn on a dime and adapt to meet different circumstances on a day to day basis. that important ability is what we consider "intelligence," "thought," "consciousness," etc.

it seems like one behavioral effect of this change was using our past experiences to serve as a guide in projecting our circumstance into the future. . . linear thinking. we go with what has worked, the tried and true. these behaviors becomes habits, and we engage them more often than not. i consider this no different from coded genetic behavior. it's a really sorry use of the capacity i outlined in the last paragraph. . . but i digress. from birth this confused, detached consciousness meanders about physicality: testing and remembering, building networks of acceptable, successful behavior. this is the development of the ego, and by the time the consciousness reaches maturity it has a virtual stranglehold on behavior.

if we can break out of that, i believe we can realize our full potential. i see tell-tale signs of this happening in my personal life and on a global scale. if that doesn't make this an interesting time to be alive, i don't know what the fuck would!

[Waves]

Originally Posted by tedkennedy

then how can you explain the fact that there is an adaptive stasis between the time the atlatl was invented and the time the bow was invented? for a hundred thousand years very few new inventions came into the fossil record. a common misconception about human history is that it is a steady slope upwards. but infact it is a series of explosive "adaptive revolutions" followed by a stasis. this is a fact proved by the archaological record.

I agree with this aspect of the theory, that we advance in what looks a series of explose revolutions followed by a stasis. the only aspect i disagree with is that this advancement is a result of a threat to us. i ascribe the advancement in part to threats, but also a huge part of it is simple human innovation.

im trying to make the point that collectively the intelligence of a human being is limited by how much extra-genetic information he has available to him. if you live in the animal world, non-kin conflicts of interests severely limit the exchange of extra-genetic information and this is the sole reason why animals are not as smart as humans are, in some cases they actually have larger brains than us and some birds have vastly better vocal chords. why dont they act like humans then? the only reason they dont speak is because exchanging information would be dangerous for them.

i will try to use an example that is outside of the realm of biology. think about "the system" and "criminals". if there wasnt some way to stop criminals from exploiting the system, how could you ever have an orderly society? nature is dominated by "criminals". animals have not developted to the point of humans simply because they do not have a way to threaten "criminals" from exploiting the system. thus they treat all non-kin as potential threat and thus they do not speak to each other.

the reason that humans have all of a sudden progressed so far in the blink of the eye on the timeframe of history is that every time we stumble upon a new weapon that supresses conflicts of interest with increasing efficiency we increase the pool of individuals whom can work together. also, once you have a human village you can have people whom specialize in certain trades and then share their services with other people. the better you are at supressing non-kin conflicts of interest the more people you have working together, the more ideas you are pooling, the more inventions and ideas you are trading.

when i say non-kin, progressively the definition of kin evolves with every new weapon. origanolly kin would be considered your actual blood relatives. but with the evolution of weapons you have the evolution of villages, so now your kin is your village. then with nation-states you have an entire nation of "kin". i dont know if that clarifies anything.

bdat.

yeah man, the more i understand what your saying the more i agree with it. there were just some aspects that jumped out at me personally, and i dont claim to know much about biology. it really is interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

i don't believe that slowly but surely, over time, we are what we are what we are today..(as in our human body structure)... you cannot tell me that an ape is a genetic precursor to a human, because that's just not true... we might be similar in the # of chromosones, but humans and animals (lucy falls into that category) are two different species..Why didnt the humans that you say lived 160,000 years ago create a writing system, or make rudimentary documentation of their lineage? .. they werehumans living like animals...plain and simple

I'm more than happy to agree (for the sake of argument) that aliens landed and created modern humans, or that God intervened and created modern humans, or whatever theory you have that explains modern humans.

That being said, your belief that modern humans were not around 160,000 years ago because they didn't have technological and psychological advancements is batshit crazy.

1) modern human fossils have been found up to 160,000 years old. This is not "belief" or "what I say" unless you believe those fossils were put there to deceive us.

2) You are making the argument that because modern humans didn't have a writing system, they weren't modern humans. By this logic, I should be able to say that because humans hadn't invented the computer in 1900, modern humans didn't evolve until the past few decades. Perhaps the word "modern" is what is confusing you? The fossil of a man from 400BC is going to look the same (as any two fossils of the same species can) as the fossil of a man from 100,000 years ago, and from a fossil of a man today.

Listen, man. I have no issue with you believing in stuff. But if you're going to use science to DEFEND your positions, then you can't dismiss it when it destroys your position.

If you believe fossils are real, then you have to believe that modern humans were around 160,000 years ago. That's not a point of debate.

To suggest that the fossil dating 160,000 years ago that I linked to you is not the same species as the one you are is, I'm sorry, retarded.

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by verklingen

to be honest, no. i can only read the effects of it. my experience of these effects, how my consciousness works, etc. is all subjective, and therefor very personal. but i can say that it seems to me that we have a very important distinction between animals: the ability to develop behavior which is not coded within our dna. i don't mean the way physiological evolution works, which i understand to be a specimen developing a successful new behavior which is then selected for. that behavior also becomes coded in the dna, which serves to evolve the species. i mean behavior that can turn on a dime and adapt to meet different circumstances on a day to day basis. that important ability is what we consider "intelligence," "thought," "consciousness," etc.

it seems like one behavioral effect of this change was using our past experiences to serve as a guide in projecting our circumstance into the future. . . linear thinking. we go with what has worked, the tried and true. these behaviors becomes habits, and we engage them more often than not. i consider this no different from coded genetic behavior. it's a really sorry use of the capacity i outlined in the last paragraph. . . but i digress. from birth this confused, detached consciousness meanders about physicality: testing and remembering, building networks of acceptable, successful behavior. this is the development of the ego, and by the time the consciousness reaches maturity it has a virtual stranglehold on behavior.

if we can break out of that, i believe we can realize our full potential. i see tell-tale signs of this happening in my personal life and on a global scale. if that doesn't make this an interesting time to be alive, i don't know what the fuck would!

We are only using 94 or so % of our brain, rest of it Dr.'s & scientists don't have a clue what the unkown portion is for.Imagine being able to send somone a thought, as if you were speaking in a voice but not opening your mouth and using your vocal chords. That is a possibility, thats one thing about the human species, if it can be thought of, someway/when/where it will be possible.

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by JcP

I'm more than happy to agree (for the sake of argument) that aliens landed and created modern humans, or that God intervened and created modern humans, or whatever theory you have that explains modern humans.

That being said, your belief that modern humans were not around 160,000 years ago because they didn't have technological and psychological advancements is batshit crazy.

1) modern human fossils have been found up to 160,000 years old. This is not "belief" or "what I say" unless you believe those fossils were put there to deceive us.

2) You are making the argument that because modern humans didn't have a writing system, they weren't modern humans. By this logic, I should be able to say that because humans hadn't invented the computer in 1900, modern humans didn't evolve until the past few decades. Perhaps the word "modern" is what is confusing you? The fossil of a man from 400BC is going to look the same (as any two fossils of the same species can) as the fossil of a man from 100,000 years ago, and from a fossil of a man today.

Listen, man. I have no issue with you believing in stuff. But if you're going to use science to DEFEND your positions, then you can't dismiss it when it destroys your position.

If you believe fossils are real, then you have to believe that modern humans were around 160,000 years ago. That's not a point of debate.

To suggest that the fossil dating 160,000 years ago that I linked to you is not the same species as the one you are is, I'm sorry, retarded.

i agree that he is the same species as us..i meant to say lucy wasnt...dude, i have witnessed and been through things that defy words....ANYTHING is possible..i just think that its kind of funny how modern technology all of a sudden jumped on the scene in the last 100 years...... you saying the fossil is 160k years old even strengthens my argument...something happened between 160k years ago and now, and it changed our future forever..but what was it?personally i believe the greys crossbred with us so would have their intellect. For survival of their race it was vital......cause 160kbc till 1700 no notable changes, no electricity, no phones, etc. then Viola'...I'm just human man like everyone else (supposedly). I have the capability to learn, and retain, something animals have trouble doing......anyways hope i cleared that up

[JcP]

so you are of the opinion that sometime within the last 300 years, aliens landed, crossbred with humans, and the new hybrid humans have increased intellect and therefore able to create new things like telephones?

Okay. That's your belief system. If we're in agreement that humans have been around since at least 160,000 years ago, I have nothing else to take issue with. Beliefs are personal.

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by verklingen

matt, are you of the belief that the human genome was altered by extraterrestrials to give rise to the human we recognize today?

that's a cool theory, but i think it serves only to take responsibility away from the person. a few thousand years ago, something happened: a shift in paradigm. we became aware of who and what we are as individuals, and what we can do. maybe aliens screwed with our genetics, and maybe this potential was there all along. either way, the paradigm shift served as a kind of implant in our consciousness; allowing us to conceptualize our needs and methods for providing them in a completely novel way. in that manner, it really was "alien."

just throwin some ideas out. your belief's as valid as any other.

thats one of many options it serves, it also serves up a.i.d.s., any many other situations we might not have, if we hadn't merged. The impregneted women were probably whores who had no one to take care the child. How do you explain race? If we live long enough we'll all be about Ted's color , and accordng to Southpark we will have penis' protruding from our foreheads...(funny epidsode) serioulsy Aliens could being attacked by their own version of A.I.D.S., and whatever they are suffering from, could be allieviated by human transfusion....

matthew

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by JcP

so you are of the opinion that sometime within the last 300 years, aliens landed, crossbred with humans, and the new hybrid humans have increased intellect and therefore able to create new things like telephones?

Okay. That's your belief system. If we're in agreement that humans have been around since at least 160,000 years ago, I have nothing else to take issue with. Beliefs are personal.

yes......not the telephone per say, and maybe not even crossbred, but gave technology to our govt. We made too many advances, too fast, we're imploding....

[espiex]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

i agree that he is the same species as us..i meant to say lucy wasnt...dude, i have witnessed and been through things that defy words....ANYTHING is possible..i just think that its kind of funny how modern technology all of a sudden jumped on the scene in the last 100 years...... you saying the fossil is 160k years old even strengthens my argument...something happened between 160k years ago and now, and it changed our future forever..but what was it?personally i believe the greys crossbred with us so would have their intellect. For survival of their race it was vital......cause 160kbc till 1700 no notable changes, no electricity, no phones, etc. then Viola'...I'm just human man like everyone else (supposedly). I have the capability to learn, and retain, something animals have trouble doing......anyways hope i cleared that up

Physical evolution is continual but far from constant, there just aren't many fossils for all the hundreds of billions of creatures that have lived. It's really unlikely anyone gets to be a fossil.

Mental evolution has also been continual since we started using thought as an evolutionary strategy at all. Continual and accelerating. Early steps did take a long time, but our mental and societal evolution has accelerated as knowledge has built on knowledge. There was no one magic event x number of years ago, we sort of just 'emerged' over time.

[espiex]

Originally Posted by Waves

I agree with this aspect of the theory, that we advance in what looks a series of explose revolutions followed by a stasis. the only aspect i disagree with is that this advancement is a result of a threat to us. i ascribe the advancement in part to threats, but also a huge part of it is simple human innovation.

Right on - the ability to threaten others with fists, atlatls, bows and atom bombs has played a major role in the shaping of human culture, but the exchange of information, advances in medicine, art, music, science, even politics have all played their parts too, and not just because threats of violence are holding everyone in check.

[tedkennedy]

Originally Posted by Waves

I agree with this aspect of the theory, that we advance in what looks a series of explose revolutions followed by a stasis. the only aspect i disagree with is that this advancement is a result of a threat to us. i ascribe the advancement in part to threats, but also a huge part of it is simple human innovation.

yeah man, the more i understand what your saying the more i agree with it. there were just some aspects that jumped out at me personally, and i dont claim to know much about biology. it really is interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain.

cool, im glad i was able to open up your mind about some things

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by espiex

Physical evolution is continual but far from constant, there just aren't many fossils for all the hundreds of billions of creatures that have lived. It's really unlikely anyone gets to be a fossil.

Mental evolution has also been continual since we started using thought as an evolutionary strategy at all. Continual and accelerating. Early steps did take a long time, but our mental and societal evolution has accelerated as knowledge has built on knowledge. There was no one magic event x number of years ago, we sort of just 'emerged' over time.

to become a fossil, you have to be killed, or die, in a substance that will preserve your essence/dna... its unlikely that any of us will be fossils, but there are 5 + billion people waiting to die in a setting that will preserve their essence..look at all of the insect/dinosaur fossils...
PLENTY of them...

[matthewmunari]

Ted, you say you study theoretical physics at NYU, is Kaku one of your professors???

[tedkennedy]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

Ted, you say you study theoretical physics at NYU, is Kaku one of your professors???

not NYU homes, close tho.

Suny Stony Brook, its a very good biology school.

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

to become a fossil, you have to be killed, or die, in a substance that will preserve your essence/dna... its unlikely that any of us will be fossils, but there are 5 + billion people waiting to die in a setting that will preserve their essence..look at all of the insect/dinosaur fossils...
PLENTY of them...

your funny matt. it is cool that you show an interest in learning. however some of your ideas are a little off :P . fossils, at least the good type of fossils are actually bone that have deposited in a layer of sediment (this is essential) in an ancient sea bed. as the bone decays it is replaced atom for atom by certain minerals in the sediment, basically making a perfect stone replica, there is no dna there, it is simply an exact stone replica of the bone. you are right, the conditions for a perfect fossil to be made are rare, especially because the fossils can only be found if they are somehow uplifted by tectonic plate movement and placed where people can find them. this is why Olduvai gorge is so rich in fossils, because its where there are colliding tectonic plates which uplift the fossils and there used to be water there thousands of years ago.

[-Illfaded-]

the thing is, we have all the technology and knowledge already to implement many changes that could and eventually will benefit the world in major ways. solar power, nuclear power, wind turbines, etc.... all will be used once the oil runs out and the oil companies turn into energy companys that make the solar panals and wind turbines and shit like that. but for now, theres too much profit and tons of oil still left till that shit changes. as for the US, we will be around forever. i dont see the US ever falling... at the most, changing, like all other countries in the world have since the beginning of time. Rome didn't fall, its still there.... just not the dominant power in the world at this time... time will tell.