Debt Slavery

[Canuck Wisdom]

Oh yea, people are kinda obliged to survive.

[JainVeganBuddha]

debt is an artificial concept that means others have all the wealth and capital and you have to sell your work to them to even exist.

imm convinced that if we were smart, we would not use money at all.

[Canuck Wisdom]

Within a thousand years I bet humans will move beyond money. Sooner even. But for now, its a part of our lives and we'll start the movement by acknowledging what money really is.

[JainVeganBuddha]

we should abolish the use of money completely--and the people would have to do it ourselves. do you realize how much war and destruction that would eliminate?

[DubStyle311]

Explain debt slavery to me again. Maybe I can explain to you where you're getting off track.

[JainVeganBuddha]

just think social classes. the socioeconomics of the society is designed with slavery innate to it. hosts and hosted, host and parasites, hamster on a wheel, staff and guests, master and servant, Lord and peasants....you know the routine.

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by DubStyle311

Explain debt slavery to me again. Maybe I can explain to you where you're getting off track.

Can you explain trolling to me again, and why you consistently do it instead of contributing to the conversation?

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by Canuck Wisdom

Within a thousand years I bet humans will move beyond money. Sooner even. But for now, its a part of our lives and we'll start the movement by acknowledging what money really is.

I would like to hear your definition of money.

To me, money is whatever that which is of value. It really doesn't matter. It could be baseball cards. Whatever is in demand.

I don't think money we will ever evolve beyond money until we evolve beyond desire, which I don't see happening (since I don't see evolution on any unique path). Money will always be the medium of exchange, whatever that medium may be--information or conversation even.

I think money will always be apart of our lives. As we evolve--assuming that it's for the best--it will become less and less able to be corrupt.

[v3d4]

maybe moneys not so much the problem as it is of humans in general, because even if money were abolished tomorrow, downpression would persist

[JainVeganBuddha]

money is the crooked middle man between real things and people.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

I don't think money we will ever evolve beyond money until we evolve beyond desire, which I don't see happening

In order to evolve beyond desire, don't you have to evolve beyond desire?

Or, in other words, perhaps you don't see money becoming useless because you still desire money? Be the change, and all that :-)

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by JcP

In order to evolve beyond desire, don't you have to evolve beyond desire?

I don't see how it's possible for me to "evolve" beyond desire if we're talking about evolution, since individuals can't evolve.

I have a hard enough time changing simpler things in my own life, let own my ability to desire.

Or, in other words, perhaps you don't see money becoming useless because you still desire money? Be the change, and all that :-)

I don't want to give up my desires. I don't see money becoming useless because money is anything which we desire or require that is able to become our property through our labor or trade. Here's what I don't see happening:

I don't see people working for free for the rest of their lives.
I don't see people giving away everything they work for for the rest of their lives.
I don't see people giving up on the idea that trade is a bad thing.

I see working for a living, keeping what you work for, and trading for what you want as good things. These things make for a better quality of life, especially when it's 100 degrees outside and you want some ice cold lemonade.

[Canuck Wisdom]

Well first of all, I didn't say anything about [biological] evolution, perhaps social evolution, or growth.

Right after making that post I considered editing it to say that, at the very least, as you say Snapshot, money will become less susceptible to corruption.
First, (in my pretty picture of the future of human social evolution) money will be cleaned up; meaning that usery, and loan sharking will end. You should not be making money off of just having money, that is wrong. And as much as it is hard for our society to accept that (certainly I benefit enormously from my parents investments and using other peoples money) because of how it benefits us, I feel it is necessary to make human existence together 'fair'. My definition of money, or ideal use for money, would be as the common lubricant which allows humans to easily trade with one another. No more than that. In this view, everyone would contribute, and work for a share, which allots them that much social value (society has decided a job is worth, 80k units of value/money a year), and in a way (more truthful then today) it would be true to say that rich folks are more valuable to society.

But I do think, in a time hard for us to imagine, that we will move beyond money. The world will become close, so close and aware of one another, because of speed of travel and communication and understood shared values of good lives, that money will cease to be important. People will be born into a world where everyone takes part, and everyone is looked after, because its the human thing to do. People will not want to 'freeload', because taking part (working) will be enjoyable and a group experience of bettering our world together and sustaining happy life for all. Taking part will be the best choice because it will be life, you will be alive when you take part and not recessing into a static being. Everyone will be looked after by no one in particular (ie government) but just by everyone else, because looking after one another and making sure everybody takes part, is a part of working and taking part of human sustainment.

We will all celebrate life and survival together, and recognize that we are 'one team', and because we are all one team we will show our fellows love, as one loves oneself, and overcome challenges with joy together. The paradigm will be so radically different from todays, that to not take part in the collective work will not be viewed as freeloading, but as an illness that needs treating, as something that deserves sympathy and understanding. People will know almost instrinsically in this paradigm that taking part in our collective sustainment is the way to life and love and everyone will be largely aware of everyone else.

I am sort of just rambling now, but I hope you get the picture, the feeling I am trying to convey, and understand why I think this is not only possible, but the certain eventual outcome for our people and this planet. As Bill Hicks says, eventually we will live in peace and explore outer space together forever.

[Canuck Wisdom]

How we get there, I don't know, but I am willing to bet, that the people who have the real power on this planet and really pull the strings, the sort of folks that are responsible for directing us towards globalization and bringing down trade barriers, homogenizing cultures etc, have a very very similar dream to me.

They unfortunately, have been burdened with the material power and responsibility to try and make that possible, and so in their all too human attempts to make it so, great evil is done in the name of this end.

And as will all things, good, from the little guy, you and I, must temper this great force and convert the direction they have chosen into a good means, and not just a good end. It is always the little things, unnoticed by history, that make the good out of a situation. This is why we must dissent and spread awareness about truth in life.

For me, Jesus, and other such characters, are a stepping stone in the course of human historical direction and taking control of our own lives, towards this final togetherness which all humans deserve to experience, and in a way is a full circle completion of this experiment of 'civilization'. Or, before civilization, when man was ignorant and didn't need to work like he does now, i.e. the garden of eden, to when civilization has realized itself and we go, so to speak, from Garden to Garden.

KnowhutImsayin?

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

I don't see how it's possible for me to "evolve" beyond desire if we're talking about evolution, since individuals can't evolve..

evolution in terms of thinking and consciousness is not the same thing as evolving a third leg. I 'evolve' all the time. Perhaps evolve is the wrong word choice here, but I was simply using your vocabulary

Originally Posted by snapshot

I have a hard enough time changing simpler things in my own life, let own my ability to desire..

then dont expect to see any changes regarding desire.

Originally Posted by snapshot

I don't want to give up my desires. I don't see money becoming useless because money is anything which we desire or require that is able to become our property through our labor or trade..

Again, I'm suggesting that you are therefore producing a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't want to give up your desires, ergo money will always be important.

Originally Posted by snapshot

Here's what I don't see happening:

I don't see people working for free for the rest of their lives..

assuming desire is irrelevant, why not?

Originally Posted by snapshot

I don't see people giving away everything they work for for the rest of their lives..

assuming desire is irrelevant, why not? What's your attachment to 'stuff' about?

Originally Posted by snapshot

I don't see people giving up on the idea that trade is a bad thing..

assuming desire is irrelevant, why not simply give?

Originally Posted by snapshot

I see working for a living, keeping what you work for, and trading for what you want as good things. These things make for a better quality of life, especially when it's 100 degrees outside and you want some ice cold lemonade.

This is fine, snapshot. My point is that I sensed a quality of resignation in your post in terms of money...that it's something we have to deal with because humanity won't evolve past the point of needing it.
My reply to that is: until you do, you're correct. If you believe money to be a force of good, and if you believe desire to be a quality that increases your compassion and the general well-being of humanity, that's fine.

[DubStyle311]

What the hell is wrong with money?

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by DubStyle311

What the hell is wrong with money?

Nothing, for those that have a big pile of it in their parents bank.