life as an expression of circumstance

[verklingen]

i'm trying to do something extraordinary in this thread by removing the cold determinism from science and the creationism from. . . well, creationism. there are many very complex systems of matter expression throughout the universe. we call one such local expression "life." it was long assumed that life was something amazing, so amazing in fact that it was taken for granted that some higher intelligence must have ushered it in. but what if there was really nothing "special" about life at all? or at least, nothing any more special than a pebble rolling down a hill after being struck by a raindrop? it seems to me that life and, as far as i can tell, all existence is due solely to matter expressing itself through the base physical laws we recognize, and perhaps even some we have yet to recognize.

let's start with our solar system. it began as a rotating nebula of dust and gases. as the nebula continued its rotation it formed into an accretion disc, the innermost particles of which coalesced to form a ball of gas which would later become our sun. elsewhere in the disc particles were colliding and collecting into planetesimals, some of which would survive the ensuing tumult to engulf their brethren through gravitation and become the planets we recognize today. the plenetesimals likewise collided with eachother until such time that the most hardy (or lucky if you like) ones were left alone rather more often than they were bombarded violently. one such survivor became our planet earth.

our infant planet was molten at this time, heated by radioactive decay and straight-on collisions/glancing blows with less fortunate planetesimals and asteroids. the heavier metals (chiefly nickel and iron) were drawn by gravity into earth's core. as the metals collected together they began to rotate in the center of our molten planet. the completion of this process resulted, by happy coincidence from our point of view, in the creation of earth's magnetic field. the lack of bombardment gave the lighter elements on the surface time to cool and harden into a crust, but the molten interior was maintained due to the decay of radioactive elements. this ushered in an era of intense volcanism the likes of which our planet hasn't seen since, and volcanoes spewed and belched forth gases and water vapor which hung around to form our atmosphere and oceans thanks to the generation of that wonderfully convenient magnetic field.

already you can see how coincidence after coincidence stacked the deck in favor of our being here due to nothing more than the expression of a circumstance. but there is beauty in that expression. there is beauty in ALL expression. there's no point in imagining a grand designer of all this. what need is there when we can perceive and appreciate the process and its result for ourselves? it's what we are, it's what we're for. if we can love that and develop it on our own, creating wonder after wonder through the excitement that love and devotion can well up in us, we may purposefully take our expression of the circumstance into our own hands. . . beautiful hands whose only limits are the limits we place upon them. is that special? is that amazing?

[JcP]

awesome post Verk.

I still see a requirement for that raindrop to hit that pebble, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

[The Rev]

Life includes, to a greater or lesser degree, an extra factor beyond the expression of a causal chain, no matter how complex. It includes conscious awareness, which is a unique thing and cannot be reproduced, unlike any set of physical circumstances.



The Rev

[Waves]

Originally Posted by verklingen

it seems to me that life and, as far as i can tell, all existence is due solely to matter expressing itself through the base physical laws we recognize, and perhaps even some we have yet to recognize.

why? why is there base physical laws at all and why does matter express itself through them?

THAT to me is whats special. when it comes to matter i dont see how a rock is any more or less special than a human or a piece of poo. its all matter expressed in different ways. but what really startles me is the fact that any of it exists at all. and why. and how did existence come into existence, how does it work?

i know you cant answer these, but any and all input is fun just for the sake of discussion.

already you can see how coincidence after coincidence stacked the deck in favor of our being here due to nothing more than the expression of a circumstance.

And why should it be different for any other kind of existence, physical non physical or otherwise? its like in trainspotting, the kid says history is simply "one fuckin thing happening after another" and here we are right in the middle of it. in a system of infinity, coincidences are just different points in time and space where two things happened that created a result that wouldnt have been created otherwise. i dont think theres any randomness involved, just one fuckin thing happening after another. which creates the illusion of randomness to our singular, linear perceptions.

but there is beauty in that expression. there is beauty in ALL expression. there's no point in imagining a grand designer of all this. what need is there when we can perceive and appreciate the process and its result for ourselves? it's what we are, it's what we're for. if we can love that and develop it on our own, creating wonder after wonder through the excitement that love and devotion can well up in us, we may purposefully take our expression of the circumstance into our own hands. . . beautiful hands whose only limits are the limits we place upon them. is that special? is that amazing?

i quite agree with this tidbit.

another aspect of the whole religion situation is the idea of a creator or a prime mover or whatever you want to call it. which goes back to my first question of "why is any of this here in the first place and what made it be here as opposed to not being here?"

the truth, i believe, lies outside of logic and our ideas about reality.logic works for us, and our beliefs work for us, but to assume we are the only beings in existence is pretty silly to me. we see our reality as our universe, our world, what we know and perceive. before we had ideas of universes and planets our reality was our world of blue skies and starry nights. and we had no way to explain any of it. as our view of the picture grows to the universe, we ask "why created the universe" and then perhaps we make some grand discovery about that and we discover we are but one single universe in a system of many, perhaps infinity universes. and then the question expands to contain these universes and on and on it goes until we find an end point, a fixed finite system that our minds can comprehend that explains everything.

i dont think thats ever going to happen. what i think the situation is, really, is that we cant comprehend it because we're not equipped to. any more than a beetle can comprehend the universe, as the old saying goes. we are animals, organisms, with a finite structure and perception and we are born inside of a system and we work inside that system to formulate our beliefs. making conclusions about the greater system that we cannot perceive is sort of like a fish making conclusions about what living on dry land would be like! they arent equipped to even start thinking about that! until, of course, a fish flops out onto dry land and evolves the mechanisms necessary to live in that environment. which is presumably how we got here if i remember the theory of evolution correctly. and that itself takes much time, which to us is important but in the context of infinity is meaningless.

anyway this all ties into our beliefs and our religion because as i said we are making conclusions about the greater reality beyond our perceptions BASED on our limited perceptions of this reality. For all we know reality outside of physical life could be extremely different and expressed in completely different ways than matter and energy is expressed here in our universe. But this is not meant to knock religion. Its pretty much a case of people working with what they were given to formulate these complex systems of belief and ways of interpreting the data through their senses. we fashion our gods after ourselves! i mean really the greeks seriously believed that the gods were some kind of afternoon soap opera rejects!

but that just goes to show you how people will evolve and change. and i think the time of looking at a god as something that lies outside of us in the sky somewhere judging us and watching our every move is coming to an end. its simply not practical anymore. science is going to come in and show the religion camp that alot of the stuff they held as firm beliefs is certainly wrong, and religion will have to cope with that as people start waking up and now following these hierarchical institutions that suppress and limit the individual ego. like the christians beliefs that basically tells us that sex is wrong and we should be ashamed of ourselves. the time of limits and people controlling other people is over. ironically while i say this it might seem the exact opposite in the world, what with tibet and the middle east and shit, but i believe these are all symptoms of that type of institution coming to an end, i.e. it gets worse before it gets better. and like you said verk, its time for the human race as a collective to take that expression of circumstance into their OWN hands. its getting HOT in here man. the renaissance aint got nothin on whats comin up!

anyway just exploring ideas, i like your thread verk. thanks

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by Waves

anyway this all ties into our beliefs and our religion because as i said we are making conclusions about the greater reality beyond our perceptions BASED on our limited perceptions of this reality. For all we know reality outside of physical life could be extremely different and expressed in completely different ways than matter and energy is expressed here in our universe. But this is not meant to knock religion. Its pretty much a case of people working with what they were given to formulate these complex systems of belief and ways of interpreting the data through their senses. we fashion our gods after ourselves! i mean really the greeks seriously believed that the gods were some kind of afternoon soap opera rejects!

well said man. we can see the story of our expression, but we can only perceive other expressions as we relate them to our own. for example, there could be a race of energy beings who developed on the planet jupiter and the red spot is a giant orgy they've been having for the past hundreds of years. but they would be forever hidden from our view because we are only able to relate to the story of jupiter's expression as it applies to what we know about the expression of our own earth. even my musings on what beings might inhabit it are inexorably reflective of my own being-ness! we can perceive its size, its age, its mass, the strength of its magnetic field, its composition, etc but nothing more because beyond that the similarities end. we are in essence seeing the sense we hold for our own planet reflected in the other heavenly bodies we observe, and our observation perceives only what we can relate to.

so we don't only fashion gods after ourselves, we fashion the entire universe after ourselves! like you said i can't answer your initial questions, but perhaps the mechanisms and physical laws which gave rise to our particular expression are likewise reflected in our observation of the universe. maybe the physical laws which govern things on earth seem so "universal" because they are the only ones we have the capacity to comprehend. we would therefor only observe phenomena which agree with our comprehension. imo there could even be physical things and physical life our particular expression of physicality limits us from perceiving. dark matter, anyone?

Originally Posted by Waves

but that just goes to show you how people will evolve and change. and i think the time of looking at a god as something that lies outside of us in the sky somewhere judging us and watching our every move is coming to an end. its simply not practical anymore. science is going to come in and show the religion camp that alot of the stuff they held as firm beliefs is certainly wrong, and religion will have to cope with that as people start waking up and now following these hierarchical institutions that suppress and limit the individual ego. like the christians beliefs that basically tells us that sex is wrong and we should be ashamed of ourselves. the time of limits and people controlling other people is over. ironically while i say this it might seem the exact opposite in the world, what with tibet and the middle east and shit, but i believe these are all symptoms of that type of institution coming to an end, i.e. it gets worse before it gets better. and like you said verk, its time for the human race as a collective to take that expression of circumstance into their OWN hands. its getting HOT in here man. the renaissance aint got nothin on whats comin up!

right on!

Originally Posted by Waves

anyway just exploring ideas, i like your thread verk. thanks

my pleasure bud. thanks for dropping in with your juicy hunk of brain food.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by verklingen

well said man. we can see the story of our expression, but we can only perceive other expressions as we relate them to our own. for example, there could be a race of energy beings who developed on the planet jupiter and the red spot is a giant orgy they've been having for the past hundreds of years. but they would be forever hidden from our view because we are only able to relate to the story of jupiter's expression as it applies to what we know about the expression of our own earth. even my musings on what beings might inhabit it are inexorably reflective of my own being-ness! we can perceive its size, its age, its mass, the strength of its magnetic field, its composition, etc but nothing more because beyond that the similarities end. we are in essence seeing the sense we hold for our own planet reflected in the other heavenly bodies we observe, and our observation perceives only what we can relate to.

Right on!

its like that south park that was on the other night, about the lice in the kids hair. they couldnt fathom that they were living on a living, conscious being because they could only relate their experience to what they know, which is being lice and interacting with other lice.

I do think that over time our view of the picture enlarges, we keep digging deeper at whats there. I just dont think it ever stops

so we don't only fashion gods after ourselves, we fashion the entire universe after ourselves! like you said i can't answer your initial questions, but perhaps the mechanisms and physical laws which gave rise to our particular expression are likewise reflected in our observation of the universe. maybe the physical laws which govern things on earth seem so "universal" because they are the only ones we have the capacity to comprehend. we would therefor only observe phenomena which agree with our comprehension. imo there could even be physical things and physical life our particular expression of physicality limits us from perceiving. dark matter, anyone?

yep! and whats really cool is to think that perhaps this whole system was set up this way specifically so we could develop the understandings that we have so far, and explore and experience the wonders of this physical universe! and to conceptualize other "frameworks" that might exist similar to our physical dimension that are capable of manifesting experiences that would seem totally alien to us!

i'll bet as time goes on and our view of the picture enlargens, we discover similar universes or frameworks and explore those much like we now explore space. inter-dimensional astronauts if you will

[verklingen]

waves, did you see the transcript of a channeled message from "6th density sirius energy" i posted? it describes, in an extremely roundabout way, EXACTLY the kind of awesome shit you're talking about.

edit: a message from 6th density Sirius energy

[Waves]

i did not mate, ive been traveling all over so ive missed a shitload of threads. lemme go look for it.

[suburbanlights]

You need to be a teacher. Of children. Seriously. Kids need someone like u teaching them. Too bad you're a pushover! LOL

[espiex]

That's a very anthropic view Verk... and it definitely has the ring of truth about it. So far I've met no more elegant explanation for the extraordinary chain of coincidences leading up to our present form and existence, than to look back from the other end and say that we see the universe the way it is, precisely because the universe is such that we see it at all!

Waves goes a step further back when asking why the universe is such that we see it at all... and of course we can only speculate given that our whole context is this universe. Logic and reason and feeling and understanding may not even apply 'out there', but my humble human mind sees infinitite possibility as the most satisfactory explanation for the unlikely combination of values our universe has - if all possibilities exist, then so does ours.

[ziplock]

Wicked thread

I have come to suspend my conscription to the notion of something from nothing. I have sort of challenged myself to find compelling evidence for the very possibility of "nothing" to exist, let alone to have "something" come from it. Instead I find it a great deal easier to compel myself that there was never "nothing" but there has only always been "everything."

After heavy experimentation with mushrooms I was drawn to thoughts much like Buddhist's. I was interested in ego-loss and a dissolution so to speak into oneness. It was appealing, but also somewhat frightening. Something also bugged me... Can a true state of oneness as far as consciousness goes truly claim totality? Sure, it's one, it contains all, but if the expressions of all those various possibilities aren't realized how can it be the "totality" of existence? This particular shared possibility we are currently experience... doesn't it have a right to be acknowledged as a part of totality? This moment? Nirvana is just as dependent on suffering as it is on enlightenment.

Life is like watching liquid in motion and the dancing whirlpools of energy that intermingle and interact. When you get caught up in the flow it becomes so difficult to distinguish where "you" end and "it" begins. Like when you play an instrument you're familiar with, you feel yourself pour into it, and through this expression this tool becomes a part of you to allow for the acceleration of this inner expression into existence. Beyond the body, beyond the physical, there is a reality that demands to be realized. We all have this need to express it into existence and have it's legitimacy validated. When you pick up that familiar instrument, you express that inner reality in a way that allows it to be appreciated in such a way that can be recognized by other people. Through this appreciation... the flow is easy, and all the lines, the boundaries, dissolve.

This universe of ours, this beautiful cascade... We love it, one cannot deny... You look at humanity's history and you see this almost childishly innocent admiration for the universe and it's provision. It has blessed us in many ways, the richness of experience we are provided through the body is at many times dumbfounding. We have created so many monuments of conscious architecture in our efforts to foster a deeper more intimate relationship with it.

Understanding, relation, intimacy. There's a preprogrammed attraction to these various things in our composition. Our ability to understand is, for the most part, largely determined by our ability to recreate. For example, school. We have to be able to express the meaning of what we've learned through a different set of words. If we accomplish this it's deemed we have understood what was taught to us. We then inevitably use our understanding of self to achieve an understanding of others. Isn't it only fitting that our ideas of the universe follow suit?

[greengreengreen]

please read my thread that i just posted
A Theory about God

honest to god (hah) i had not read your thread at all before i posted this. many many ideas tie into eachother. maybe we should write a bible, haha.

[medicinal only]

I believe that Earth was at the right place at the right time. Elegantly orchestrated chaos I say. I've been reading about Drakes Equations, as it relays to the SETI program and the odds of finding another planet with the same environment and the same evolution as our precious orb, is off the charts. Nil in fact.

[Waves]

Originally Posted by ziplock

Wicked thread

I have come to suspend my conscription to the notion of something from nothing. I have sort of challenged myself to find compelling evidence for the very possibility of "nothing" to exist, let alone to have "something" come from it. Instead I find it a great deal easier to compel myself that there was never "nothing" but there has only always been "everything."

After heavy experimentation with mushrooms I was drawn to thoughts much like Buddhist's. I was interested in ego-loss and a dissolution so to speak into oneness. It was appealing, but also somewhat frightening. Something also bugged me... Can a true state of oneness as far as consciousness goes truly claim totality? Sure, it's one, it contains all, but if the expressions of all those various possibilities aren't realized how can it be the "totality" of existence? This particular shared possibility we are currently experience... doesn't it have a right to be acknowledged as a part of totality? This moment? Nirvana is just as dependent on suffering as it is on enlightenment.

Life is like watching liquid in motion and the dancing whirlpools of energy that intermingle and interact. When you get caught up in the flow it becomes so difficult to distinguish where "you" end and "it" begins. Like when you play an instrument you're familiar with, you feel yourself pour into it, and through this expression this tool becomes a part of you to allow for the acceleration of this inner expression into existence. Beyond the body, beyond the physical, there is a reality that demands to be realized. We all have this need to express it into existence and have it's legitimacy validated. When you pick up that familiar instrument, you express that inner reality in a way that allows it to be appreciated in such a way that can be recognized by other people. Through this appreciation... the flow is easy, and all the lines, the boundaries, dissolve.

This universe of ours, this beautiful cascade... We love it, one cannot deny... You look at humanity's history and you see this almost childishly innocent admiration for the universe and it's provision. It has blessed us in many ways, the richness of experience we are provided through the body is at many times dumbfounding. We have created so many monuments of conscious architecture in our efforts to foster a deeper more intimate relationship with it.

Understanding, relation, intimacy. There's a preprogrammed attraction to these various things in our composition. Our ability to understand is, for the most part, largely determined by our ability to recreate. For example, school. We have to be able to express the meaning of what we've learned through a different set of words. If we accomplish this it's deemed we have understood what was taught to us. We then inevitably use our understanding of self to achieve an understanding of others. Isn't it only fitting that our ideas of the universe follow suit?

this was fun to read

[medicinal only]

Face it, even though we have made exponential strides in science, in the past 30 years, we are still in our technological infancy. Philosophy aside; look at what we've learned about Geomagnatism, and Oersted and Ampere: Study of the Magnetosphere of earth. Which jumps me into vortexes. Facinating stuff. If you look at the Magnetosphere Map and the so-called Vortex hot spots, it eerie. They align almost exact. One day we are going to wake up and realize that everything we ever learned or thought to be true and consistant, was wrong. I ask my self all the time, did philosophy and science kill God?