Theoretical Physics: The Kardashev Scale of Civiliation Types

[Tai-pan]

In an excellent book titled, "Hyperspace", theorical physicist Michio Kaku mentioned the Kardashev Scale and that got me thinking on just how much of a turning point in our species growth we are. We have the ability to either save or destroy ourselves and all life on this planet yet it seems that the times keep getting scarier and scarier.

Anyway for those who don't understand what I mean, The Kardashev Scale says that there are 4 basic ages that an intelligent race would go through in it's lifetime (and 2 possible ages that most would not achieve...if any would.)


So we have Type 1, 2, & 3 Civilizations


Type I – this civilization harnesses the energy output of an entire planet.

Type II – this civilization harnesses the energy output of a star, and generates about 10 billion times the energy output of a Type I civilization.

Type III – this civilization harnesses the energy output of a galaxy, or about 10 billion time the energy output of a Type II civilization.


A Type I civilization would be able to manipulate truly planetary energies. They might, for example, control or modify their weather. They would have the power to manipulate planetary phenomena, such as hurricanes, which can release the energy of hundreds of hydrogen bombs. Perhaps volcanoes or even earthquakes may be altered by such a civilization.


A Type II civilization may resemble the Federation of Planets seen on the TV program Star Trek (which is capable of igniting stars and has colonized a tiny fraction of the near-by stars in the galaxy). A Type II civilization might be able to manipulate the power of solar flares.


A Type III civilization may resemble the Borg, or perhaps the Empire found in the Star Wars saga. They have colonized the galaxy itself, extracting energy from hundreds of billions of stars.


By contrast, we are a Type 0 civilization, which extracts its energy from dead plants (oil and coal). Growing at the average rate of about 3% per year, however, one may calculate that our own civilization may attain Type I status in about 100-200 years, Type II status in a few thousand years, and Type III status in about 100,000 to a million years. These time scales are insignificant when compared with the universe itself.


On this scale, one may now rank the different propulsion systems available to different types of civilizations:

Type 0 <----(Humans)
Chemical rockets
Ionic engines
Fission power
EM propulsion (rail guns)

Type I
Ram-jet fusion engines
Photonic drive

Type II
Antimatter drive
Von Neumann nano probes

Type III
Planck energy propulsion


Given where we are now, it's good to know that we will reach Type 1 within one hundred years....if we don't blow ourselves up first. If we make it through to Type 1 how long would it take us to hit Type 2? According to Dr. Kaku it would take several thousands of years.

What does everyone else thinks? Would we hit Type 0 or will we just blow ourselves up first? Can we evolve and leave our Caveman instincts behind us or will we be doomed to be the scared, scheming, superstitious apes we are currently?

[Smaerd]

well the main problem is the unity. We cannot harness the universe's powers with such segregation, you know? There may be 6 billion of us but if we're all divided by the million in to segregatory groups there's no way our species can advance without some form of group death or all death.

So stop the hate, cuz there's someone in Iraq and Russia who if we all worked with, could solve any of these. I believe it is because it is easier on the human mind to Limit everything. Hence why emotions are developed though evolution, and there is something known as "tradition" or "conservitism".

Think of it like tripping. If your afraid of the unknown then you will scare yourself when in reality you have the potential to embrace and love the ten strip or quarter ounce of mushrooms you just gobbled... So we(as the human race) developed hatred for differences because it's scary to some, to believe that there are other things to believe in. And for those of us who don't hate, we are quiet in fear of being hated. Fear, Hatred sadly are the double edged sword of Comfort, and Love. Without one the other cannot exist, you know?

Like someone once said "to destroy slavery, we also must get rid of Anti-Slavery". Could you personally change what you are raised to believe is "Love" and "Comfort", to erase "Hatred" and "Fear"? I know I already have taken this vow.

[grieves]

Hate is far from the problem, poor resource management based on a litany of other variables is what is holding us back...If anything the minds that are working on these kinds of answers aren't petty enough to discredit based on ignorance of that magnitude...This is not a problem to be solved by the everyman, sure everyone has/will have their part but there are bigger minds at work than the common man who hates who he is told to hate...

The answer truly lies in asking ourselves, do we want to achieve the next step in evolution or not? Based on the global answer the time could be soon(50 years) or never...

[Smaerd]

How is hate/segregation not the issue? Think about it Iran/Iraq(pardon my knowledge) and the US are both racing to the moon for resources. Apply this principle for every single non-personal accomplishment possible. If we just all intertwined our programs together it would take half as long? But one has to be better then the other, similiar to seeing the girl you like mingle with your worst enemy, it becomes a competition.

EDIT - ADDITION: Shit preppy kids can't(well they can but they chose a barrier) even hang out with Emo kids? Think about how primitive that is. Even the only chance we know of to be young, we chose to limit ourselves and reality? A kindergarden play ground is segregated between girls and boys. If we wish to evolve past pack animals, then we must act on that.

Conservatives hate/fear liberals, liberals fear/hate conservatives. If we all just dealt with it as an always accepting family we'd progress in all directions faster. No boundries = all directions of access(and believe it or not we live in a boundless world).

Stoned Tangent -
Think it wasn't too many generations ago when flying was a dream. Now some are telling me time travel is not achievable? Fuck, we already went to outer space a generation or two ago...

[verklingen]

i see only two real classifications: those who cooperate and those who do not.

anyone know about the cambrian explosion? until then, life consisted of single cells competing among each other for resources. when the paradigm shifted and cells began cooperating and working together, their potential literally exploded into the greatest diversification our biology has ever seen. one branch which shot off from these roots led to a race of apes whose proliferation covered the face of the planet. as we rediscovered ourselves we melded through trade -- of genes, ideas, and goods -- to form a global society which knows, collectively, that between it and the horizon which once seemed so distant lie brothers, and beyond that horizon, sisters. we're not looking to harness the power of our planet, star or galaxy. those powers we can use to destroy like every other power we've harnessed. no, if we hope to evolve we have to relearn an old trick. we have to harness the power of ourselves.

[Captain Cannabis]

Originally Posted by verklingen

i see only two real classifications: those who cooperate and those who do not.

type 1 2 and 3 all seemed like theyd have to cooperate

[verklingen]

of course any advancement in technology requires cooperation. even type 0 takes cooperation. but i'm talking cooperation on a scale similar to how our many different types of cells cooperate to produce the life we enjoy. theoretically a civilization could advance through all these types and still find reason to kill one another. i'm just raising the point that technology does not equal or even precipitate evolution.

[Smaerd]

I kind of disagree with that Verk. I mean I haven't studied it or anything, but I'd assume a family fully familiar with computer programming then breed, wouldn't some sort transfer of mechanical understanding be passed as well? I mean if you know how a computer works that is knowledge, similar too knowing how to open a door. I guess evolution might not really work on principles of understanding/knowledge, but I don't really know.

I mean they have been teaching algebra to 13 year olds now days, but my parents said if you took algebra in high-school in their day, you were like brilliant. Once again, maybe it's just teaching changing, but I'm just working with ideas.

[verklingen]

it's hard to say man, nature vs nurture and all that. but that's not really what i'm on about, i'm talking more about how our evolution has more to do with the paradigms which rule our behavior than our technological prowess. for example the US could develop technology which allows us to manipulate the weather like a type 1 civilization, and then use that technology to ruin china or the mid east or wherever. a competitive, hateful spirit could carry us through every imaginable technological advancement, but our evolution as a species will have stagnated and i find it hard to imagine we wouldn't end up killing ourselves off before we got far. the problem, as you say, is our unwillingness to unite.

[Smaerd]

Oh I totally hear you, sorry for that haha. Sometimes I get confused when on the computer, but in person if I'm talking I never have such problems haha. Trueness I liked the little tid-bit about the apes I'm gonna have to look that up later.

[The Rev]

I believe the blame for our inability to acheive Type I status lies squarely on the shoulders of illegal immigrants.



The Rev

[Tai-pan]

Originally Posted by verklingen

it's hard to say man, nature vs nurture and all that. but that's not really what i'm on about, i'm talking more about how our evolution has more to do with the paradigms which rule our behavior than our technological prowess. for example the US could develop technology which allows us to manipulate the weather like a type 1 civilization, and then use that technology to ruin china or the mid east or wherever. a competitive, hateful spirit could carry us through every imaginable technological advancement, but our evolution as a species will have stagnated and i find it hard to imagine we wouldn't end up killing ourselves off before we got far. the problem, as you say, is our unwillingness to unite.

I think the real problem lays in the fact that we discovered element 92 and liquefied hydrocarbons. Once we developed the ability to literally kill all life on earth we began the true test of civilization. As a species we are basically just smart apes that have better tools. We haven't shed our evolution-driven emotions of fear or hate and we often look for 'tigers' that are not there.

Take any town in America, cut off all access to outside help or communication, kill all electricity, and scare the hell out of them. See how fast civilized people revert to the mindless mob...and you can duplicate that in nearly every country, not just the US.

If we can survive to Type 1 status....about another 100 years, I think we may be ok.


My biggest hope is that humans, as a species, get colonies established off earth. Our solar system is literally a shooting gallery and for our species to continue to Type 2 or 3 status, we would need to spread ourselves out. One good nuclear or biological war, one good asteroid, heck one massive coronal ejection from the sun and we as a species are done.

It's my belief we will get to type 1 status as long as we have level headed people in power around the world. All it takes is one crazy with a nuke or bio bomb and 'poof' it's game over.

[Patrick Rue]

Haters are a good fuel though.

[WildWill]

Given the context, I don't even think that we're out of the negative numbers yet, like perhaps at Civilization -2 or something.

Until we stop killing each other over stupid shit, we cannot gain a higher level of being.

[Terry]

In the graphic novel Watchmen, (without ruining too much i hope) the antagonist wants to put an end to human conflict by staging a massive alien attack and wiping out a huge section of New York City, thus brining mankind together to face the unknown alien threat. I sometimes wonder if maybe that's what it would take for mankind to unify.

Very, very good post Tai-pan, I will be looking for this book the next time I hit up Barnes and Noble.

[espiex]

Originally Posted by Tai-pan

Given where we are now, it's good to know that we will reach Type 1 within one hundred years....if we don't blow ourselves up first. If we make it through to Type 1 how long would it take us to hit Type 2? According to Dr. Kaku it would take several thousands of years.

What does everyone else thinks? Would we hit Type 0 or will we just blow ourselves up first? Can we evolve and leave our Caveman instincts behind us or will we be doomed to be the scared, scheming, superstitious apes we are currently?

Energy is the single most important issue to us as a species, nothing else matters more. We can solve almost any problem you care to name with enough energy - except the problem of ourselves.

What would it take for true unity, no more war or countries or organised religion? Perhaps just true communication, unmediated by language. Imagine if we did have a neural interface technology uniting us like the Borg - we would no longer be able to ignore any individual's pain or suffering in the whole world... Forget shitty governments leading us to war with each other over lies, forget central government altogether.

The first thing any government does in a war is depersonalise the enemy, both for its soldiers and its population. Everyone's 'just defending themselves', even when they fly halfway across the world to invade other countries.

But if you and they could feel every wound, know every thought... perhaps then there would be peace. No individuality or freedom perhaps, but as a species it might give a chance to survive.



I think we're fucked.