evolution

[verklingen]

i had something of a realization on the way in to work this morning. in a very physical, quite literal way, any limit imposed on our rate of development results directly from the limits we place upon our children. limiting thought and behavior is limiting possibility, and while some thoughts and behaviors are degenerate. . . am i wrong in understanding that such is a reaction to the very limits we place, and that these reactions intensify the more severely we impose?

i just had the thought that if we made all of our actions "for the children," to cultivate wonder, creativity, and appreciative amazement instead of fear and helpless hopelessness. . . well, i don't think it would be too long before we turn this ship around.

[Mafoo]

i agree, and its weird because i was just thinking something along these lines when i was driving home today.

[shelbert008]

but the question is, how do we do it?

[drunken13astard]

Thats a very good realizaton,verk. I think the source of all the limitation comes from school in general, we are taught at a very young age of what we can and can't do.

Not to mention many people would rather have a career with more money, than something that would inspire them or they have a passion for.

[Bodhisattva]

presuming THAT amazement doesn't NECESSARILY become helpless hopelessness

like how shock, if not momentary, can become horror, shock can go lots of ways, but amazement?

either way, shock and amazement have in common, a limited span

being more like children is in no way shape or form the solution to our Very adult problems, i couldent imagine a generation of snot-nosed whiny adults that like finger painting between orgies and eating pure cane sugar.. would have any answers to any modern problems big or small

i am boggled that you named this thread evolution.. the limitations?.. i want to throw around terms like bottleneck and competition, since you are keen on evolution

i wonder are you confounding the words expansion and evolution

'i don't think it would be too long before we turn this ship around'

i do not understand, do you claim to know in what direction humanity is headed? what do you mean?

[verklingen]

in my view our very adult problems are the result of how past generations limited us. racism, classism, sexism, religious hatred, etc are all cultural limitations that have been passed down in one way or another, generation to generation, to this day. children are unique, they are special. they haven't been "broken" in yet. i just read an article this morning that detailed research into the mind of infants. they are aware of much more of their surroundings than we are, because we are conditioned to filter out most of the "noise" that obscures what we've been conditioned to focus our attention upon. when we limit our children in the way i am describing, we are shattering their vision of the potentials for life on our world by forcing them into the same mold we were forced into.

i feel like i know what direction humanity is headed, i just don't know exactly how we'll get there or what will happen after. the way i see it all of our very adult problems are culminating like the end-game of a behavior that leads one to rock bottom. we're bending under the pressure and if we don't move to compensate for it, snap! and where will or esteemed, very adult problems have led us then? is that what you would call evolution? no, the name of that game for evolution is for a species to adapt to the circumstantial pressure of its environment. doing the same shit on a day that's different enough could get you killed, ya heard?

[Canuck Wisdom]

I agree with what your saying Verk.

I think people become trapped to a degree (not unforgivable though) in a mold because of family and social conditioning and it limits their true potential. A more optimal society would do what it can to shrink the amount of limits it puts on its people/children. Freedom.

A bit of a tangent, but for human biological evolution, we are not going to be waiting around for breeding to do the job. Cyborgs and genetic engineering will open up the next phases of human change and development beyond what we now consider a normal human body. Don't say goodbye to red hair yet.

[Bodhisattva]

im done here.. i would sooner convince a chimp that shininess does not bestow value unto itself

you talk of a new kind of people, with minds more apt than even your own for your perspectives, but with no regard or respect for evolutionary bottlenecks and their importance historically or their neccesity in acheiving any overhaul of any sort

ill let it rest i guess

[verklingen]

i don't speak of any new kind of people, just the same old people being allowed to develop in a new way. . . i.e. without placing social stumbling blocks before them.

i think there might be a semantic issue impeding our discussion. humans are purely social creatures, and therefor i consider the evolution of society no different from the evolution of our species. homo sapiens did not evolve to dominate the world. it took groups of homo sapiens working together through a social structure to achieve the level of development that led to our present circumstance. despite this circumstance being a world away from the those our ancestors faced, much of that original structure remains the same. this is why there are so many examples of tradition conflicting with reality. these social relics are like atavist genes carried through the generations. we would do well to rid ourselves of them imo.

[Bodhisattva]

ok i think i am seeing what you are saying now, atleast more than before, further clarfication may be needed

but i disagree about this being a cultural issue, its genetic as far as i can tell

i would go so far as to suggest genes determine the culture we create, returning to the necessity of the dieing off of much of the gene pool for the world you invision to manifest, culture grows independently, but what direction it grows in and what shape it takes isnt the result of 'ignorance' as much as preference.... genetic?

the only point remaining.. even if i were born into a culture where every last individual was totally liberal to the tee

i would not find men equal

i would not find people equal

im confident of atleast this much.. in a world where everyone embraces everyone.. i am not a victim of my environment, i would not be welcome, because i am incapable of being that free of preferences, and i insist that is not a cultural brainwashing, but a genetic advantage, in precisely the area of adaptability, being 'open to much' makes you open to stupidity and a single cult leader would love a world filled with the innumerable neural connections present in children

childrens minds are like a garden with many small plants growing, its impossible to preserve them all, they NECESSARILY change into the more adult format of a few strong plants, thats evolution, survival of the fittest, whatever that may mean

culture is far too soft a force to change this, culture is onyl strong after it developes for a while but a 'people' are what develop it can independently take the shape of some progress or whatever, evolutionarily, this format of the many seeds a few of which succeed is precisely the format that adaptability has taken, adaptability is unfulfilled without the weeding out, a state of extremely rapid change would be necessarily to preserve such fluid amiability, over time a situation would situate itself.. without constant flux

[Mafoo]

too me the glaring problem with adults raising children is that it seems to be a limiting upbringing. how can adults, who have been conditioned to 'function' in society, expect to raise children who will prosper, excell, envision, change, and concieve of new ideas? it seems like being raised by functionaries will always breed more of the same

[Bodhisattva]

and yet it hasn't their have been remarkable differences in each generation, people naturally rebel like no other species

individuals, incalculably more important, portraying the exceptional in some way

a discussion of the many sheepish lemmings that make culture less of a project and more of a struggle..

so rare, so uncalled for, such a topic wets my lips

[verklingen]

i would go so far as to suggest genes determine the culture we create, returning to the necessity of the dieing off of much of the gene pool for the world you invision to manifest, culture grows independently, but what direction it grows in and what shape it takes isnt the result of 'ignorance' as much as preference.... genetic?

i understand culture -- like writing, art, music, myths, and fairy tales -- to be a storehouse of extra-genetic information. it lives and breathes, transforming before our very eyes. if it were limited by our genes, it would develop slowly like mutations in our genetic material do. no, our behavior is not determined by genetics. not absolultely, anyway. imo we've overstepped that boundary with what i refer to as "society."

im confident of atleast this much.. in a world where everyone embraces everyone.. i am not a victim of my environment, i would not be welcome, because i am incapable of being that free of preferences, and i insist that is not a cultural brainwashing, but a genetic advantage, in precisely the area of adaptability, being 'open to much' makes you open to stupidity and a single cult leader would love a world filled with the innumerable neural connections present in children

interesting. i would argue that in order not to be victimized by your environment, you MUST have the ability to be free of preferences. being "open to much" means "open to the right solution" as much as it means "open to stupidity." but remaining steadfast in your preferences, you could easily miss a very tangible solution which your preferences simply didn't allow for and was therefor never considered. for example, imagine if our ancestors in the ice age had a preference against dressing in the skins of dead animals. if you're open to doing so you may also be open to. . . swimming in a frozen lake. but if your goal is not to die the choice is obvious. being open to choosing is no detriment.

childrens minds are like a garden with many small plants growing, its impossible to preserve them all, they NECESSARILY change into the more adult format of a few strong plants, thats evolution, survival of the fittest, whatever that may mean

yeah man, you're right. children's minds are fertile ground where interests take root and grow like beautiful plants in a garden. and not only are some not preserved in our society, most are never given the chance to fully develop or blossom. you might say they're being victimized by their environment. . . an environment WE, as the caretaker generation, maintain and pass on to them. i believe cultivating an environment where they can develop in peace would be a fantastic jump start for a better human experience, aka evolution.

culture is far too soft a force to change this, culture is onyl strong after it developes for a while but a 'people' are what develop it can independently take the shape of some progress or whatever, evolutionarily, this format of the many seeds a few of which succeed is precisely the format that adaptability has taken, adaptability is unfulfilled without the weeding out, a state of extremely rapid change would be necessarily to preserve such fluid amiability, over time a situation would situate itself.. without constant flux

sorry man i just don't buy it. culture is determined by people and people make choices and they can make choices as quickly as they like. personally, i see evidence that we are being pressured to make the kind of choices that will bring about conditions for something like what i'm describing here. we're just being forced to think more carefully and, dare i say, be more open to new considerations and possibilities. we're as adaptable as we decide to be.

[verklingen]

here's that article about baby brains, some of you will likely find it interesting

Inside the baby mind - The Boston Globe

[SageTree]

I think deconstruction of what is 'true', when 'truth' is based on something that has been repeated enough times to be accepted, is the beef here.

People accept what 'is', without really looking at it more closely. Inquiry is the problem, there isn't enough on a low, normal lay basis. This allows 'truths' to be formed without restraint.

Circle schools and the like are good for children in this manner. Also Unitarian Universalist Religious Education enables children to inquire freely with minimal adult guidence.

Post Modern is a concept I'd like throw in here. Not in a generic, cliche way. Really it means looking harder at what we 'know'. Science without inquiry, is suseptable to becoming a faith based on us thinking we know all the variables to consider.

What if there is a level of consciousness in which we could conceive ideas that would melt the 'knowledge' we have now and make it look foolish in some aspects.

Einstien said "a problem can't be solved in the same consciousness with which it was conceived."

This resonates with me.

Step outside the womb of comfort and question more. Lead by example. People are looking for leadership, embrace that sheepness and show people how to live rightly by action. Start f-in with the status quo of what people think happiness is. Find a comfortable valunerable place and live there moment to moment, question everything, and make it true for yourself, or disgaurd it. Read more. Personal inquiry. See where the source is coming from.

Metta,
Sage

[Bodhisattva]

the thing is that i am whole-heartedly of the opinion that we must BECOME like children, in mental ability, maybe after becoming adults or perhaps even elderly, something like that

but disagree entirely, that children/childhood must be preserved/fostered for the express purpose of preservation/ to avoid ever being 'closed-minded'

so this thread is troublesome for me to navigate

i want to pose the hypothetical... everyone on the planet has become super open-minded, adaptable, and im speaking strictly in the sense of a great plasticity in neural connections, as i now understand to be your point?, so disregard my 'snot nosed sugar fiends' comment

what in the world makes you think this would be a peaceable world?

with great adaptability in human interaction, i see great exploitation and great attempts at Every opportunity

presuming adult intelligence still develops?

or do we all get-along with this neural-plasticity preserved and undisturbed from childhood because we have also retained child-like neediness and weakness? if so i repose my 'snot nosed suger fiend' comment

[verklingen]

it's not that childhood must necessarily be preserved, just that their interests and skills representative of those interests ought to be fostered in a meaningful way which allows them to fully blossom. with the advent of culture, every generation is a chance at creating a new species. but for the large part we have treated our culture like part of our biology: seeking to preserve it (look at conservatives and fundamentalists around the world) even to the point of doing so against the circumstances of our environment. imo the maintenance of this biological paradigm within the more adaptable cultural framework generates all our societal ills. biological evolution has been a game of reacting to our environment. it should follow then that the potential for cultural evolution offers us a new strategy to be proactive, enabling us to create the conditions for life we prefer and thereby greatly accelerate the progress of our species. we can recognize that this potential exists all we want, but unless we begin fostering a generation that is not weighed down by our past it will never be realized. i believe this begins by raising our children for the sake of our children as opposed to raising them for our own sake.

if we were to take this prospect seriously we would create a peaceable world because i believe our current non-peaceable world is built upon the illimitable transgressions and inequities of our past; these having been generated by old paradigms that have proven to be antiquated on our shrinking planet. doing away with the material of a building removes its structure also, and thereafter, being burdened by past behaviors and dis-integrated paradigms no longer, we can break new ground and get creative with our new materials. an integrated society, an integrated world. . . these are the very hallmarks of peace.

ps man, have you heard of ANUS? reading your posts i think you may find something of worth there.

[Ego Tripping]

i had something of a realization on the way in to work this morning. in a very physical, quite literal way, any limit imposed on our rate of development results directly from the limits we place upon our children. limiting thought and behavior is limiting possibility, and while some thoughts and behaviors are degenerate. . . am i wrong in understanding that such is a reaction to the very limits we place, and that these reactions intensify the more severely we impose?

i just had the thought that if we made all of our actions "for the children," to cultivate wonder, creativity, and appreciative amazement instead of fear and helpless hopelessness. . . well, i don't think it would be too long before we turn this ship around.

It's literally and investment. I find that investments better yourself and the generations below, but they sacrifice immediate gratification. I find them to be humble acts however and feel that investing in our own evolution is one of the most selfless acts any individual can perform during their time here.

[xMSx]

I like this, it is kind of something latent that no one really thinks about very frequently. But if problems were done to one generation, wouldn't the problem simply repeat itself? Where does the change have to take place?

[verklingen]

^ imo the change starts with simple recognition, and truly manifests itself through actions that are representative of an intent to do something about it. same with any habit. you have to realize you're doing it, realize it no longer serves you, and then do something to change it. it's that simple!