karma refuted

[SageTree]

In my understanding the the 4th of the 5 aggregates which are Form, Feeling, Preception, Intention(Karma), and Consciouness, Karma is the point at which we choose how to act. First we see and object, then decide good/bad/neutral, then we observe if we have any habitual preceptions or 'know' this object. Karma comes in when we decide to act on previous neural pathways. Creating 'new karma' which is 'good', to me means that with the intention comes the result. Skillfull thoughts, from a wise mind, leads to establishing new means of beneficial pathways of Intention, more easily. Then next time we reach the same point of preception our 'knowing' acts how we did it last time and then the Karma is 'good' again when we choose to take the path that led to the most helping. Finally consciousness there is the factor that arises with each of the other 4. Ear eye taste smell touch and mind all act as we ponder our way through a moment.

Here is something I found that explains it pretty well, with some good examples.

So Karma, in other words, in Buddhist terms, is the intention on an action, and the practice is to establish a more peaceful benificial path(way).

In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.)

Therefore, the law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them.

This is where the 5 aggregrates are talked about, the sequence of arising of all our experience. -SageTree

Let's take an example of a sequence of events. An unpleasant sensation occurs. A thought arises that the source of the unpleasantness was a person. (This thought is a delusion; any decisions based upon it will therefore be unskillful.) A thought arises that some past sensations of unpleasantness issued from this same person. (This thought is a further delusion.) This is followed by a willful decision to speak words that will produce an unpleasant sensation in that which is perceived as a person. (This decision is an act of hostility. Of all the events described so far, only this is called a karma.) Words are carefully chosen in the hopes that when heard they will cause pain. The words are pronounced aloud. (This is the execution of the decision to be hostile. It may also be classed as a kind of karma, although technically it is an after-karma.) There is a visual sensation of a furrowed brow and downturned mouth. The thought arises that the other person's face is frowning. The thought arises that the other person's feelings were hurt. There is a fleeting joyful feeling of success in knowing that one has scored a damaging verbal blow. Eventually (perhaps much later) there is an unpleasant sensation of regret, perhaps taking the form of a sensation of fear that the perceived enemy may retaliate, or perhaps taking the form of remorse on having acted impetuously, like an immature child, and hping that no one will remember this childish action. (This regret or fear is the unpleasant ripening of the karma, the unskillful decision to inflict pain through words.)

If there are no persons at all, then there is no self and no other. There is no distinction between pain of which there is direct sensual awareness (which is conventionally called one's own pain) and pain that is known through inference (conventionally called another person's pain). Whether pain is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to quell it or an urge to cultivate it. Whether joy is known directly or indirectly, there is either an urge to nourish it or to quell it. In the conventional language of speaking of events personally, the urge to quell all pain and to nourish all joy is known as being ethical or skillful or (if you like) good. The urge to nourish pain and quell joy is known as being unskillful, unethical or bad.

Being fully ethical is said to be impossible for those who make a distinction between self and other and show preference for the perceived self over the perceived other, for such perceptions inhibit being fully responsive. Being fully ethical is possible only for those who realize that all persons are empty, that is, devoid of personhood.

[Center]

We cannot really take an unbiased look at our actions and classify them as moral or immoral, never mind the fact that life isn't that black and white, by your own admission our realities are clouded by our emotions and "energy" (wtf?). Thus, I would argue that we ourselves are unable to determine what implications our own actions have upon our Karma, making the entire concept completely moot.

Having the ability to calculate the possible implications of our actions is the playground of the sage.

Do you not agree that our realities are clouded with emotion and energy or were you simply being condencending with that (wtf?)?

[Kompressor]

Nice reads, though a little wordy for my taste. You guys gotta learn to make your points a little more concisely.

As I said, karma is a guide, not a tiedown. The more you focus on it, the less you're actually realizing.

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

Having the ability to calculate the possible implications of our actions is the playground of the sage.

Do you not agree that our realities are clouded with emotion and energy or were you simply being condencending with that (wtf?)?

I don't know what "energy" you're speaking of, however I would agree that our emotions do cloud our perception of reality. Having the ability to calculate the POSSIBLE implications of our actions is about as useless as not being able to calculate them at all. As others have said, Karma, in this respect, hinders ones spiritual growth more than encouraging it.

The Law of Karma cannot be explained away. Minds will sometimes reason themselves into doing any kind of offense to fellow beings, feigning some good intention etc.

Karma is a concept to be understood by the neophyte spiritualist, so that one may learn to take responsibility for ones every action, and master ones own destiny, by mastering cause and effect. When one truly understands the law of karma, one will not take life, one will practice carefulness and gentleness toward all life forms, one will not eat flesh, animal products etc.

This virtue and purification is absolute. Mind and body are purified, giving way to new consciousness and new vision. The flowers of great kindness and compassion blossom in the heart. A deeper understanding of the root of the teachings is attained. At this point, pondering karma is irrelevant. the higher self has been realized. Collective consciousness and a deep oneness with all beings is perceived.

Karmic calculations are washed away by a deep and wise kindness, courtesy, respect, and the natural characters of the purified spirit. One is not only nonviolent toward all beings, one cares for them, loves them, marvels at their wonder and qualities, knows them as part of ones very own self. One not only does not harm, but one is extra careful and attentive not to do harm with ones every activity and bodily movement.

Yet until one truly understands the law of karma, one will not accomplish the revision of conduct, the purifications of lifestyle and body, the guidance of purified consciousness, and one will imagine and hypothesize, but will never taste these purified states. In this case more study and meditation, seeking other teachers, or more life experience may be required.

I simply do not believe this to be true. A person cannot possibly "master" cause and effect, there are simply too many variables to predict the outcome of any situation accurately.

I don't necessarily agree with you that an enlightened person will do no harm to anything/anyone, the fact of the matter is that this impossible. By simply scratching your arm you are destroying hundreds of thousands of tiny microscopic organisms.

I do not necessarily believe that Karma is the "key" to enlightenment that you bill it to be.

[verklingen]

nice thoughts all, thanks so much for sharing

i wouldn't really say i disagree with any of you, it's abundantly clear that any of our differences are due to semantics. we can all agree that our actions, intentions and expectations affect our. . . navigation through the cosmic fullness. the question is exactly how that navigation can be executed. it's almost like we're discussing strategy in a computer game, like swapping notes on starcraft or some shit. and ultimately, we're all "right" in how we see the playing unfolding with the game. . . i just think i see an exploit.

i think that instead of working through our "karma" (or farming for resources if you like ), we can shift our state from one of negative karma to karma free, and back again. we have control of a switch known as our awareness, which allows us to properly apply our thoughts, behaviors, intentions, etc in mindfulness. once you flip that switch you can literally shift from a state of karma to a state of something that i suppose approaches bliss. christ/krishna consciousness, nirvana, all that jazz.

but to get to the point, it can be flipped off just as easily. you can climb right back aboard the wheel of karma and rocket full steam ahead along the meandering course you set up for yourself. if you ask me our expectations are the culprit. the more we plan or try to anticipate our existence than being fully there for it, to fully experience it, the further we plumb into the trenches of drama our ego has created. this is the seat of karma for me, and i think we can all agree it's anything but comfortable. ever thought you could just get up?

[v3d4]

yes and i have wondered why i dont, since i seem to keep slipping back into bad habits even tho i know i am doing it, and i do it anyway. i think that for most ppl it is a very slow process... well im not saying anything new.

for me it all goes back to Jesus' instruction to overcome evil with goodness, and also what He says in the gita about "action without regard for the fruits of action" which i read as good for the sake of good rather than for any other reason.

therefore on the battlefield of your ear, i encourage you to fight

[Center]

verk - I agree you CAN choose that reality and live it. Doesn't mean that the "karma" or emotions that are following you in the mind of other men are going to be reading on the same page.

To me karma is simply an equal and equivelant (decided in the mind of the subject being affected) response to that of your actions.

This entire thread surely is semantics. I like your Starcraft analogy. I'm 1337 at that game.

I'm running zergling at your entrance while dropping hydra/lurkers in your mineral line!



EDIT - Somebody play Terran!!

[verklingen]

yes and i have wondered why i dont, since i seem to keep slipping back into bad habits even tho i know i am doing it, and i do it anyway. i think that for most ppl it is a very slow process... well im not saying anything new.

it's slow for us all collectively, too. society at large is only just now -- at least for the first time on a scale where some change could actually come about -- recognizing the need to use our behavior proactively and in harmony with our surroundings. that's the macro for our micro. . . and we each have a unique "scale" in use that, when tripped, awakens us into being motivated to seek something better.

given how comfortable we are in our old habits it only makes sense that we tend toward coursing through life along the deep grooves they've worn. i think it's enough that we are aware of this happening, and that we make an effort to shorten the time between slipping back and finding the motivation to pop out again. it seems like that's all we can do, and with that in mind life's definitely becoming a game of finding little reminders in everything to me.

for me it all goes back to Jesus' instruction to overcome evil with goodness, and also what He says in the gita about "action without regard for the fruits of action" which i read as good for the sake of good rather than for any other reason.

therefore on the battlefield of your ear, i encourage you to fight

i always remember luke ch 12:

29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. . .

. . .31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

i feel that behaving in this way -- living beyond the ego and seeking something beyond its gross machinations, in a peace which only faith in our mindfulness can allow -- is the kingdom of god. it's found right here, in this moment, "hidden" in plain sight behind all the clutter of our life's distracting drama. so if you ask me it's more something to open ourselves up to or bring ourselves in sync with than something to be sought outwardly. it's living the life of a new wine bottle fit for the new wine which is flowing in abundance, and promises peace.

[v3d4]

amen

[kamikazi89]

that's a nicely edited version of *karma in post one..sometimes it's good to keep in mind that weather has always been with us and out of our control(HAARP) engineering advances not withstanding

*re-incarnation and caste (social)systems..it gets complicated

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

that's a nicely edited version of *karma in post one..sometimes it's good to keep in mind that weather has always been with us and out of our control(HAARP) engineering advances not withstanding

*re-incarnation and caste (social)systems..it gets complicated

?!!!?!?!?! por que?

[kamikazi89]

sometimes bad things happen to innocent people, through no fault of their own..

Karma and Rebirth: Post Classical ... - Google Books

[verklingen]

^true, but there are still those things people would be held to atone for

when i say "karma" i mean any sense of our actions binding us to experience. and while that perception is valid, i see it as the tail wagging the dog

[kamikazi89]

as long as they're actual things, and not just perceptions

[Center]

verk - I agree with you about society being more able to cause change. Thing is, this state of betterment that you are speaking of isn't always for the betterment of mankind. Some people want war.

I definately have a core belief in the idea of human goodness but the premise of the my beliefs are always challanged, rightfully. I see the vanity and pleasures can be used to overcome peoples beliefs and foundation. People crumbling under waves of women,money and status. In this grind of life they find out if they are winners or losers.

It's disillusioning and quite honestly sad. This is the process of becoming 'mature' in this day and age. Realising the vanity programmed as automaton in the people living boring and energy-less lives. It's like you have to constantly rise above it and see past it into the heart and soul of everything. It's like taking an observers eye on everyone and most surprisingly YOURSELF. Which by very definition seperates you from the crowd which you must combat in itself.

[verklingen]

you really do have to see your responsibility as an observer, and treat it as such. it's easy to get lost in judgment and further displace yourself from this crucial role. i try to always ask myself: are you really taking in all the data required for you to act in this moment? are you truly meeting the moment in unbiased clarity, or are you expecting/implanting data that is not available and projecting false conclusions? our minds are trained to bring a lot to the table when deciding to act, and i feel that any considerations beyond how to bring harmony and joy into each moment can only weight us down. if past experiences do not serve that means, why not cut it off from the moment? they say the winners write the history books. . . well i'm the winner in my book and that's how i'm writing it. the plot might not be all worked out yet but i know i'll be there right to the end: finding lessons, integrating, appreciating and growing.

maybe we can't decide what comes to us every moment, but i at least know i decide what to bring with me. anything other than observations made with a positive intent always finds a way to work against me and the life i say i want.

[Scion]

first, I feel that anyone quoting sciptures and talking about god is befooled by fake organized religion, so id advise thinking with your own brain. I wont even get into the dirty origins of organized religion, basically theyre organs of the state (kingdoms empires etc) and closely akin to military, and awash with the lowest ilk of humanity. Just the fact.

Next, someone said that karma is the intention on action. Im not sure how he surmised that, it seems sage was quoting something, but that does not seem correct.

Karma literally means action, but the connotation is for actions and reactions. Surely intention plays a role, it may even 'soften' karmic reactions, and ill give an example later. But the action itself, despite how it was intended, is the seed of the reaction it caiuses in your existence. Unfavorable karma can resulted from actions that were
1) well intended
2) intended with malice
3) careless or unintentional

Having good karmic intention means taking the time to learn understand develop and evolve the ways of good karma and find the truly enlightened spiritual practices. This is the territory of the true seeker of wisdom and the spiritual scholar, not someone attached to any religious dogma or without a broad range of knowledge and experience with those of the highest spiritual cultures.

The organized religions are the slavery trash the belligerent strain of northern europeans brought with them when they invaded the rest of the world. they are not true spirituality, no matter how flowery the words or persuasive the manipulation. Its all lies/propaganda for the naive. They have mucho blood on their hands and evil secrets in their closets.

Good karma means not causing offense harm or suffering to any living entities, as much as possible. if you can get to where scratching your arm-as someone said before--is the worst karma you do, thats pretty good. Good karma is the way of kindness, restraint, austerity, cessation, consideration, and carefulness. Cars are quite bad karma, a lot of what is norm in the modern world is bad karma. One must be aware of all ones actions in the sensitive living universe...and life is everywhere all around os. It is a way of walking, moving, and behaving with gentleness.

Ultimately, the best form of karma is no-karma, the karma free state, manifested as meditation or akarma (no karma), in which the mind and body are still and pure, and in a state of heightened, clear awareness (consciousness). Stillness, silence, detachment, contentment...

oh, and an example of intention softening karma...basically the reaction caused from a harmful action that was well intended or careless will be, although unpleasant, somehow well-intended, unintentional, careless, or accidental in origin, rather than receiving harm from purposeful malice, etc. Such injury, physical or subtle, will therefore be less traumatic and severe, just as your action was not intended with malice. The reaction will nevertheless come.

On the subtle metaphysical level, however, reactions may be minimized if a person immediately realizes their offense, misconduct, or carelessness, and takes steps to atone for what was done directly or in some way. In this way, it seems, karmic reactions can be checked or transformed into, say, an oppurtunity to help someone/some being, which will rehabilitate the spirit and counteract the effects of the negative karma--or cleanse that karma away.

[Scion]

One more tidbit about karma:

In some of the oldest eastern spiritual traditions karma is considered as the finest form of matter. It gets bound up with the subtle soul, and is at the root of temporary, impure, material existence.

[SageTree]

Thanks for sharing you wealth of info Scion, muchas gracias

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

yes that was a very informative and interesting post!

namaste and thank you.