karma refuted

[verklingen]

so i've had this ear infection for the past week and it occurred to me that putting these antibiotic ear drops in my ear every 4 hours is very literally waging heinous genocide against a burgeoning society of microorganisms. what karmic ramifications can arise from this, and indeed from the treatment of all infections/diseases? who pays a higher price: the doctor, patient, manufacturer? do alexander fleming and louis pasteur occupy a downward spiral of unfortunate incarnations? life being life, undoubtedly the slaughter of untold trillions outweighs the scant number of lives their work has saved.

it's not that i don't believe in karma, i just don't believe it's the be-all end-all to guide our experience. i think it's an insufficient approximation of how experiences are generated. the premise misses the mark in my estimation. it is not strictly our actions that dictate our reality experience, but much more so the emotion, the feeling with which we infuse that action, and also how that action and its effects leave us feeling. this is much more dynamic and, i feel, reflects the generous power we have over our reality and life experience.

karma to me is no different from the condemnation or even "original sin" of mainstream christianity, the only difference being that it is of a temporary sort. i feel it can be used as a crutch to explain away hard times ("i must have done something wrong in a past life") and in that way can severely hinder true spiritual growth. we exist here, now. this is what we have to work with, and we have as much or little control over our station as we allow our belief to buy into. i believe the extent of that work is limited only by our imagination, and i see necessary penance of a karmic sort every bit as limiting the vision as a fiery hell. we each determine the path of our development, and if we think we must stumble later because we've stumbled now or stumble now because we stumbled in the past. . . well, we might never quite get where we like to think we're going, and it will sure as hell be harder to enjoy the ride. self-fulfilling prophecy and all that.

[Kompressor]

It's your actions and intentions, so it's your karma.

Karma isn't a concept to tie you to your previous lives, it's a guide to further your future. Whatever hardships you face, the actions you choose will determine how close you can get to realizing the Beyond Within.

Though you are right, Hinduism/Jainism had no concept of microbes and/or modern biology. It is quite a struggle to judge 'how well' you are doing in this life with the realizations of sharing the world with soooooo many different lifeforms, but they themselves are causing you pain and accumulating 'bad' karma themselves, of which their consequences may be an antibiotic death.

[verklingen]

i agree that the mechanics are in place, like a template for potential experiential manifestation as it were. i just don't believe that it must manifest or be expressed absolutely and in all cases. our experiences are definitely tied to or influenced by our actions, but karma, at least in my understanding, creates a link of chains where i see something more like a bow knot. i feel that with proper understanding/proactive application of one's self, intentions, feelings, desires etc, the knot can be undone and the karmic deficit immediately overcome.

i guess this sense arises mostly from my conception of a nonlinear existence, because karma is absolutely linear. i feel that our life's influences act in a quantum state from which the whole can be rearranged moment to moment if the proper application is realized (i.e. the cat can change from alive to dead, dead to alive, alive to dead. . . etc). thus karma is rendered not invalid, but ineffectual in its supposed absoluteness. just imo of course.

[420smokeman]

Karma is sanskrit means "action," the law of karma means the law of causation: whenever there is a cause there is an effect. There is no argument that every action has a result, its a fact you can expirence yourself. Drop an apple and something will happen.
True spiritual practice is beyond the conceptual mind. If we precive reality within the minds concepts we are still trapped in the "illusionary dimension." What does good and bad action mean? good and bad have nothing to do with reality as it is: they are simply mind relevent concepts, that at the end of the day have absolutly NO meaning, except for the one which defines them at that particular moment. True spirituallity is never involved with fear or reward. if we talk about karma in terms of punishment, we speak from fears. If we talk about karma in terms of reward we speak from expectation. Talking about punishment and reward make spirituallity no differnt from religion. The use of punishment and reward is a passive-aggressive way to controll the masses. So lets talk of karma on a higher level of knowing. Every action and thought carries a frequency of energy. If the actions and thoughts come from the need to survive, the frequency of the actions energy will be low and dense. If it comes from epirienceing reality from the "higher,true,ego less self," as being in union with everything the frequency will be high. Low frequency energy leads to low consciousness and expirenceing reality with limited perception, high frequency leads us to HIGH consiousness: seing reality as it truly is.

[Kompressor]

Karma is not linear. You can rise or fall, progress or regress throughout time. Hinduism itself even in the most literal sense is cyclical. Everything is reborn and remade unless you break away from the cycle of this existence and achieve Enlightenment. They don't call Samsara the wheel of life for nothing, hell it's even on the Indian Flag.



I see you're diving into Shrodinger's vision of multiple universes/outcomes, which of course is an interesting debate in and of itself, but ultimately we perceive that a choice has been made which guide our individual thoughts/actions.

Karma is also the main schism between Hinduism and Jainism. Hinduism believes in gaining 'good' karma to attain nirvana while Jainism believes in shedding all karma to realize Truth. Intention plays a huge role between the two as well. How you feel about something, regardless if you act on it, also determines 'karmic value.'

[The Rev]

Self defense is a tricky issue. Causing harm is bad in all cases, but I generally tend to think that allowing someone to come to harm without taking action is bad as well. With self defense, it's a matter of deciding the lesser of two evils.



The Rev

[verklingen]

Karma is not linear. You can rise or fall, progress or regress throughout time.

you mean like how a line on a line graph can rise and fall?

Hinduism itself even in the most literal sense is cyclical. Everything is reborn and remade unless you break away from the cycle of this existence and achieve Enlightenment. They don't call Samsara the wheel of life for nothing, hell it's even on the Indian Flag.

i see what you're saying man, it's surely a difference of semantics/beliefs and nothing more. but cyclical or no, this rising and falling follows a kind of linear pattern which i feel karmic conceptions serve only to ever more deeply engross oneself in, while also serving to further ensconce oneself within "this existence," as you put it. imo enlightenment isn't any different from this existence, it is merely this existence realized or approached in a different way. so there's nothing to break away from, and it seems to me that conceiving it like there IS something to break away from makes that realization needlessly difficult and painstaking.

please understand that i do not at all mean to discredit the potential for growth these conceptions offer, for hindu thought and karma have helped me grow very much as a spiritual being. but a tool's application changes with circumstance, and i can only say that for myself the tool of karma can be readily seen as an obstacle as i continue (edit: or more precisely accelerate! ) this growth.

Karma is also the main schism between Hinduism and Jainism. Hinduism believes in gaining 'good' karma to attain nirvana while Jainism believes in shedding all karma to realize Truth. Intention plays a huge role between the two as well. How you feel about something, regardless if you act on it, also determines 'karmic value.'

in this case i would more closely align with the jains. can you expound a bit on their method of shedding karma? truth be told i could consider what i'm talking about to be shedding karma!

[Kompressor]

Heh, i knew you were gonna bring that up.

Yes there is progress/regress with each life, but upon the verge of reincarnation is a clean slate. Plus in a linear sense, you really cannot 'regress.' In all this, even the Gods/Time itself die and revive themselves as well as the world, albeit in different timescales. What you did in a past life has no bearing to the choices you make in this one, besides the 'level' of life you exist in. The choice of free will is what defines the soul in Hinduism. Yes, hinduism has its classifications [or caste-ifications if you really wanna get specific] but it's that stratification of society that caused the Gurus/Sannyasins [aka the truly Enlightened] to repel from the structured rule that developed on what they considered false pretenses. Even after achieving nirvana/moksha, a soul can choose to remain in physical form to help others, in Buddhism they are known as Bodhisattvas. History and Indian religions are deeply connected to each other, you can't truly understand one without the other, as they are considered non-revealed religions. I personally believe in a more helical [corkscrew/3D] structure, in that history/humanity repeats itself, but not quite in the same way. Much like DNA, it can mutate.

Jainism is pretty close to Taoism [imo] in that both have an extreme reverence in nature/life, in a kind of 'do nothing, just exist' philosophy. Jains believe Karma is 'krud' on the soul, the desire/intention to be good or bad is what hinders us from the Ultimate Reality.

Taoism however foucses on Immortality, whereas obviously Jains/Hindus believe in reincarnation.

[Blue_Dolphin]

My 2 cents:

Everything happens for a reason.

[Lurker(W.Can)(M]

I think it can be put this way: a man's fate is his character, and a man's character is his fate. This is straight out of the Sibylline oracle, and when combined with the capability of people being able to initiate or perpetuate sequences of cause and effect, I think all bases are covered.

[Ego Tripping]

Taoism however foucses on Immortality, whereas obviously Jains/Hindus believe in reincarnation.

The answer always seems to fall into that gray area between the two.

I believe it's evolutionary. I think karma and reincarnation are there to eventually move beyond them. Total free will in which you are open enough to live with your neighbor and not affect his free will is the ultimate attainment of freedom. It seems reincarnation is the process while karma is the playout of the dramas within that framework...eventual ly both are merged and evolve into free will which itself evolves to....?

[SageTree]

nice topic you all. good reading, thanks for sharing

[kitchkinet]

I>disease

[SpankyMcLankey]

as I was reading this I had to reach over and turn on my vaporizer.

your first paragraph is a tongue twister straight out of Peter Pipers ass.

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

Self defense is a tricky issue. Causing harm is bad in all cases, but I generally tend to think that allowing someone to come to harm without taking action is bad as well. With self defense, it's a matter of deciding the lesser of two evils.



The Rev

I don't know about that, by killing something that, left unchecked, would kill you, are you not technically forcing that which will kill you from the path of adharma and back to the path of dharma? And in this way, having caused that which will kill you to NOT kill you, have you not done a good deed? A good deed in somebody else's interest to boot! +brownie points

as for the OP, my interpretation of this is that, operating under the assumption that cells/bacteria do not themselves have souls, their actions do not fall into the categories of dharma or adharma. Instead, they are engineered specifically to accomplish a task/set of tasks, having little or no choice in what they do and no conscience. I would then conclude they can have no impact on a person's "karmic tally chart", though if you believe in karma you're probably aware that it is largely irrelevant.

Karma is something bigger than "what goes around comes around", there's a deeper lesson to be learned from it.

[Center]

this growth.

Please tell me if you can see what your growing into!

it's not that i don't believe in karma, i just don't believe it's the be-all end-all to guide our experience. i think it's an insufficient approximation of how experiences are generated. the premise misses the mark in my estimation. it is not strictly our actions that dictate our reality experience, but much more so the emotion, the feeling with which we infuse that action, and also how that action and its effects leave us feeling. this is much more dynamic and, i feel, reflects the generous power we have over our reality and life experience.

Hit that right on the fucking head. It really is about the energy that we infuse and inject into the actions of everyday life. The amount of energy we harness and can contain in our souls and bodies is the same limit to the heights we will allow ourselves to strive and grow towards!

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

I would argue that he has missed the mark on that one completely.

Who decides what is righteous and what is unjust anyways? Can we subjectively decide where our actions fall on the great cosmic karmic tally chart? No. I don't believe Karma is a concept for the unenlightened to dwell upon.

[Center]

No one was arguing about the justice or injustice of an action. I was agreeing with his illumination of the fact that reality is shaded and enhanced by the energy and emotion you look at it with.

Who decides what is righteous and what is unjust anyways?

The subject.

Can we subjectively decide where our actions fall on the great cosmic karmic tally chart?

Yes. Doesn't mean we are correct.

I don't believe Karma is a concept for the unenlightened to dwell upon.

I don't believe the "enlightened" person dwells much.

[al-Mu'akhkhir]

We cannot really take an unbiased look at our actions and classify them as moral or immoral, never mind the fact that life isn't that black and white, by your own admission our realities are clouded by our emotions and "energy" (wtf?). Thus, I would argue that we ourselves are unable to determine what implications our own actions have upon our Karma, making the entire concept completely moot.

[Scion]

The Law of Karma cannot be explained away. Minds will sometimes reason themselves into doing any kind of offense to fellow beings, feigning some good intention etc.

Karma is a concept to be understood by the neophyte spiritualist, so that one may learn to take responsibility for ones every action, and master ones own destiny, by mastering cause and effect. When one truly understands the law of karma, one will not take life, one will practice carefulness and gentleness toward all life forms, one will not eat flesh, animal products etc.

This virtue and purification is absolute. Mind and body are purified, giving way to new consciousness and new vision. The flowers of great kindness and compassion blossom in the heart. A deeper understanding of the root of the teachings is attained. At this point, pondering karma is irrelevant. the higher self has been realized. Collective consciousness and a deep oneness with all beings is perceived.

Karmic calculations are washed away by a deep and wise kindness, courtesy, respect, and the natural characters of the purified spirit. One is not only nonviolent toward all beings, one cares for them, loves them, marvels at their wonder and qualities, knows them as part of ones very own self. One not only does not harm, but one is extra careful and attentive not to do harm with ones every activity and bodily movement.

Yet until one truly understands the law of karma, one will not accomplish the revision of conduct, the purifications of lifestyle and body, the guidance of purified consciousness, and one will imagine and hypothesize, but will never taste these purified states. In this case more study and meditation, seeking other teachers, or more life experience may be required.