Evolution/Creation

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by SublimePhish187
it took nutrients from the soil, and water, using it's energy, transforming it inot the 200 ft tree

Then why isn't there a 200ft hole in the ground in front of it?

You can't explain it. It's just a miracle.

[theorangejulius]

most of the 200 ft comes from CO2 in the air, but i guess photosynthesis can be considered a miracle.

[Hedons]

google "evolution of photosynthesis"

There are some pretty interesting papers there.

-Hedons

[BUDFORCE]

Originally posted by North_of_Sanity
I smoked a fattie in my backyard yesterday, was watching squirrels and birds and that - just sipping on a rum+coke letting my high sink in. And I had this stoned epiphany that I have been thinking about ever since.

We seem to think that humans are a superior being to animals. But I had a thought that it is the total opposite. Humans can use their hands to make tools, weapons, and destroy the environment which we're doing pretty well. But other than that, what else can we do? We can't fly, we don't have a keen sense of smell like dogs or lions. We can't really do anything to benefit the Earth is seems. Whereas bees carry pollen from plant to plant creating/sustaining life. Worms help keep dirt loose to help roots breathe and get nutrients and water. What the fuck do we humanoids do?

I don't believe in God and the Bible and all that horseshit. But there obviously is a creator. It makes more sense to see that animals were created to sustain life and clean up the humanoids useless mess, then to think we are more evolved.

What do you think?

I tend to agree with you. We are no longer in a symbiotic state with our home, and are destroying this planet, and I believe we can all agree on that. The animals are perfect in every way, even adapting in many cases to the damage their ecosystems have sustained at our hands. They have evolved into pefection, and we, we have evolved to the point where we will eventually die off as a spicies due to our careless raping of this earth...now as for the Adam and Eve stuff...I have a thought on that...You are pretty correct in saying that everyone here could not come from one couple...sciece tells us this is so, but, some reaserch will show that in that time, Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able...well...Cain kills Able and is banished into the land of Nod, which was already populated. Able then breeds in the land of nod, infusing his geneics among these other life forms...The Creation of Adam and Eve in the garden of eden may have been Divine, but was it really an all powerfull being that created them, or was it some other advanced race infusing genetics on a lower life form and attempting to rear up a new race of beings, for whatever purpose...thus creating the human intelectual mind, and fostering its advancement. I don't particularly believe any of what I just typed, just ponder it from time to time when I look up at the stars and think...

[espiex]

I can see where both Ego Tripping and theorangejulius are coming from, but I tend to lean more towards the evolution side of things.

"Only furthers my point. Evolution is a theory based on chance, yet it seems detrimental variables never succeed"

That's the point of natural selection. Detrimental values don't do as well at consuming resources and reproducing as the very occasional advantageous values. There are heaps of small mutations going on in life forms all the time, but most convey no advantage or at worst a disadvantage, thus halting or reducing their own reproduction and removing themselves from the system.

That would appear to go against the second law of thermodynamics, in that we have a natural system progressing itself towards higher order, but it's doing so by constant self-feedback in the form of reproduction.

The better an organism is at reproducing, the more of them there are to start randomly mutating and very occasionally taking a step upwards via a beneficial mutation.

Where it's all come from, of course, is a matter purely for speculation. We don't know what happened at or even just after the big bang, we don't know what happened before our own physical laws came into being. Therefore we don't know how they came into being. Might be god, might be a celestial rubber duck. Who knows?

My money's on the duck though.

[North_of_Sanity]

No one can explain for sure where we came from. It's fun to make up stoned epiphanies though, just for laughs.


This guy I used to play music with had a theory that life is just a video game, and when you die an alien pumps in another quarter.

It was funny at the time, but I've actually thought of points that might make sense.

- The universe seems neverending. Maybe it's just a computerized loop like in video games and cartoons.

- Why do we sometimes get fuzzy-TV vision, even with our eyes closed?

Fun to think about...


I've had a theory that life is just some alien science project, like when we were in grade 6 and we had the baking soda/vinegar volcanoes.

Feel free to share others. They can just be funny, don't need to be realistic because...nobody knows for sure anyway.

[v3d4]

oh, everbody thinks that consciousness is an emergant property of the universe

but obviously the universe is an emergant property of consciousness

[moldyorangepeel]

[quote]Originally posted by Ego Tripping
I used to be evolutionist, and an atheist, but that's changed over the years.

Evolution does seem to make sense, but once I started studying more, I realized it contradicts itself by The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy to be more specific.

Entropy is described as:

en·tro·py ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-p)
n. pl. en·tro·pies
Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.


Everything in our life, post-Big Bang is decaying. The 'natural order' of things is to decay. But what Evoultion won't account for, is it requires a system that gets better over time. One that has more information being put into it, to become adapted. For some reason, we've become smarter, while other animals' intelligence remains constant. Why are we getting more efficient though? Where's all the extra information for our DNA coming from?

The next problem I ran into was how we come together to begin with. Our bodies have cells in them. In the cells are DNA, and within the DNA strand is 20 amino acid chains. These have to be a certain exact pattern to work right. If even one is off, it could turn out to be something entirely different.

20p = 2432902008176640000 possible combinations (I believe I did this right). That means the chance of your DNA being as it is, has a once in chance probability out of the number above.

That bassically contradicts the other definition of Entropy, that order cannot come from disorder.

Lets say you have a glass tube filled with red + blue sand, both perfectly seperate. If you shake it enough, what are the chances they will mix almost entirely? 100%.

If you keep shaking, what are the chances that both colors will be come perfectly seperated again? 0%

But Evolution needs this to work.


At it's most detailed view, Evolution still needs a "motivation" behind it. A reason for all components to come together perfectly, in a world where everyday physics state it's a near impossibility. If Evolution is how we got to be the way we are today, the idea of a "god" simply must be applied for it to make sense. Otherwise, "it just is", and in Science, that's not an acceptable answer. Evolution is like taking a huge gamble, and winning every single time, with not one miss. Any hardcore Evolutionist can admit (if they are well versed on it) that it doesn't make sense, compared to the world around us. And even Darwin died a Christian.

I get the feeling you never really were a strong believer of evolution and are saying that you were to give yourself credibility. The second law of thermodynamics says that entropy must increase. Well believe it or not, the only way any life exists is by increasing entropy. We increase entropy when we eat a sandwich. We turned the energy stored in the sandwich (energy in storage has a low entropy) into mostly heat energy and store some of it in our body.

We have food to eat because plants take the low entropy, high energy from the sun, turn it into heat and store some of it. Life is breakig down the large clump of energy that hits the earth.

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by v3d4
oh, everbody thinks that consciousness is an emergant property of the universe

but obviously the universe is an emergant property of consciousness

That's a good thought.

You can compare this to the "If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound." - because no one is there to hear it.

How can the universe exist if you're dead?

[moldyorangepeel]

a lot of science is observing what happens, we can only get any idea of what's going on by observation. Therories and laws can only be made from our way of seeing things happen. Good point v3d4. The way we see the world must be filtered through our own way of seeing things.

[Jam Cruiser]

Originally posted by North_of_Sanity
The Adam and Eve stuff is SUCH bullshit it's not even funny. Why do we have so many different races if we were all created by two people?

Kidding, right? Think about that again...


I'm a believer on the creation. It just makes more sense to me than evolution. But the one thing that's always had me was...

If creation was true, when were the dinosaurs created? And when did they die?

Unless dinosaurs never existed...

[moldyorangepeel]

Originally posted by Miami Toker
Kidding, right? Think about that again...


I'm a believer on the creation. It just makes more sense to me than evolution. But the one thing that's always had me was...

If creation was true, when were the dinosaurs created? And when did they die?

Unless dinosaurs never existed...

Sorry dinosaurs probably did exist. You have to make an awful big effort to just try to damage the idea of evolution, but it takes little effort to damage creationism. A world full of creationists would be a low entropy situation, because the natural direction is toward that of least energy.

Why don't you try to refute North_of_Sanity's point? You could at least give it a try, come on.

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by Miami Toker
If creation was true, when were the dinosaurs created? And when did they die? Unless dinosaurs never existed...

Funny you seem to believe the "Adam and Eve" crock with absolutely no evidence other than a book translated and rewritten probably 10 000 times.

Yet, you question the existance of dinosaurs even after discovering bones - absolute physical evidence.

I guess we believe only what we want to believe.

[Frodo]

Ego Tripping -

The low probability of spontaneous life is irrelevant - our universe has been oscillating, that is, expanding and then contracting again, and at its most contracted point having another big bang - for an infinitely long time now. Given that it's easy to see that every so often out of an infinite timespan one universe will contain life.

It seems at least as probable as a supernatural higher power to me.

[espiex]

Originally posted by North_of_Sanity
Funny you seem to believe the "Adam and Eve" crock with absolutely no evidence other than a book translated and rewritten probably 10 000 times.

Yet, you question the existance of dinosaurs even after discovering bones - absolute physical evidence.

I guess we believe only what we want to believe.

Word.

Funny how Christians and creationists always require the highest standards of evidence before they will even consider a scientific theory, without providing a single shred to support their own.

Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel, but where did their wives come from?

[Ego Tripping]

Originally posted by Lord_Frodo
Ego Tripping -

The low probability of spontaneous life is irrelevant - our universe has been oscillating, that is, expanding and then contracting again, and at its most contracted point having another big bang - for an infinitely long time now. Given that it's easy to see that every so often out of an infinite timespan one universe will contain life.

It seems at least as probable as a supernatural higher power to me.

Sorry, pure speculation. I assume you are referring to the "Bang and Crunch" theory, which has NOT been proven. For all we know, the Universe is infinitely infinite, and has never contracted yet.

[Ego Tripping]

Originally posted by user
I get the feeling you never really were a strong believer of evolution and are saying that you were to give yourself credibility. The second law of thermodynamics says that entropy must increase. Well believe it or not, the only way any life exists is by increasing entropy. We increase entropy when we eat a sandwich. We turned the energy stored in the sandwich (energy in storage has a low entropy) into mostly heat energy and store some of it in our body.

We have food to eat because plants take the low entropy, high energy from the sun, turn it into heat and store some of it. Life is breakig down the large clump of energy that hits the earth.

Your feelings are wrong. I was a very hardcore Evolutionist, and would get into hour long debates with Creationist trying to de-bunk Creationism. Fact is, you ignore the idea of information. As you eat that sandwhich, you are deconstructing it, making the system less complicated (always easier to destroy than to rebuild). What are the chances if you threw up or took a shit, that the sandwhich would come out whole again?

Evolution states that the systems become more complicated over time. Our brains went from a primitive form of hunter-gatherer that used rocks as tools, to a sentient life that can construct space stations. Why did we get smarter? Why aren't we STILL evolving? In fact, for the past 160,000 years, we haven't budged. A bit odd we went from a primitive form of ape 7 million years ago, and now we just stopped?

I'm not denouncing Evolution, but I hold heavy skepticism about everything lately.

[moldyorangepeel]

Originally posted by Ego Tripping
Fact is, you ignore the idea of information. As you eat that sandwhich, you are deconstructing it, making the system less complicated (always easier to destroy than to rebuild). What are the chances if you threw up or took a shit, that the sandwhich would come out whole again?

Evolution states that the systems become more complicated over time. Our brains went from a primitive form of hunter-gatherer that used rocks as tools, to a sentient life that can construct space stations. Why did we get smarter? Why aren't we STILL evolving? In fact, for the past 160,000 years, we haven't budged. A bit odd we went from a primitive form of ape 7 million years ago, and now we just stopped?

I'm not denouncing Evolution, but I hold heavy skepticism about everything lately.

I'm ignoring the idea of information??? Information is what I live for, sir. Yes, you make good points in that it is easier to deconstruct the sandwich .than it is the construct it. It takes energy to make the sandwich. Well in the same way, it's easier to deconstruct the energy coming from the sun than it is to change it into some even more ordered form of energy. The sandwich exists because something had to be made and to break down the energy from the sun.

Where do you get the idea that the human race hasn't changed for 160,000 years? Thats fucking rediculous!!!

The true fact is, that we, like all species, are necesarily changing all the time. For example, in america, some people are geneticly more prone to alchoholism. These people are more likely to die in a car accident. Therefore car accidents are a factor that reduces the amount of alchoholics in the population. People who are geneticly prone to skin cancer will die quicker as the ozone depletes. It's simple, goddamnit

[Ego Tripping]

Originally posted by user
I'm ignoring the idea of information??? Information is what I live for, sir. Yes, you make good points in that it is easier to deconstruct the sandwich .than it is the construct it. It takes energy to make the sandwich. Well in the same way, it's easier to deconstruct the energy coming from the sun than it is to change it into some even more ordered form of energy. The sandwich exists because something had to be made and to break down the energy from the sun.

Ok, so you're agreeing that deconstruction is infinitely easier than reconstruction. Apply this to the idea of an entire species becomin