Evolution/Creation

[North_of_Sanity]

I smoked a fattie in my backyard yesterday, was watching squirrels and birds and that - just sipping on a rum+coke letting my high sink in. And I had this stoned epiphany that I have been thinking about ever since.

We seem to think that humans are a superior being to animals. But I had a thought that it is the total opposite. Humans can use their hands to make tools, weapons, and destroy the environment which we're doing pretty well. But other than that, what else can we do? We can't fly, we don't have a keen sense of smell like dogs or lions. We can't really do anything to benefit the Earth is seems. Whereas bees carry pollen from plant to plant creating/sustaining life. Worms help keep dirt loose to help roots breathe and get nutrients and water. What the fuck do we humanoids do?

I don't believe in God and the Bible and all that horseshit. But there obviously is a creator. It makes more sense to see that animals were created to sustain life and clean up the humanoids useless mess, then to think we are more evolved.

What do you think?

[Della Nooch]

this whole matter is very confusing to me

i would like to believe something, but the whole creationism seems like a load of bullshit, and evolution seems to be the more sensible explanation

i think i beleive in a little of both

[North_of_Sanity]

I also had a theory that we are really aliens from outer space that morphed with apes to create humans.

Humans are so inconsistent with the rest of Earth's life. Most animals have a purpose - sustaining their ecosystem. But humans have no purpose at all. Any purpose - slaving to the rat race, investing, retiring is all shit we created.

We really have no reason for being whatsoever.

[SublimePhish187]

there has to be creation, physics dictates that, energy cannot be created or destroyed, so where did everything needed to start the big bang, there has to be a creator

[SmokeSomeDoja]

not modern man at least...but historically, humans have been in a much smaller part of an ecosystem and thus the effects of humans had a much smaller effect on the ecosystem as a whole...humans had small plots of land to cultivate food, a few livestock...people were self sufficient

look at what extensive agriculture and the manipulation of species has done to the earth (for the sake of human survival?) we are the top of the food chain, just because we are humans, this does not mean we are exempt from the laws of nature...what happens when the predator becomes too many? there arent enough resources to sustain that "predator"... what happens when a group doesnt have enough resources?

soil continually loses its nutrients...the air, earth, and water are contaminated with countless pesticides and chemicals...species are dying left and right....we as humans have overstepped our bounds and our role as caretakers of the planet...we shouldnt be raping the land by continually growing agriculture (but what choice do we have? we have to take care of the human overpopulation?)

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by SublimePhish187
...there has to be a creator

I know what you mean when you spoke of how matter can't be created or destroyed - Therefore there must be a creator.

But what I don't get is why someone/thing would create humans (who are supposed to be superior) - Then allow them to just destroy the Earth. It makes no sense.

The Adam and Eve stuff is SUCH bullshit it's not even funny. Why do we have so many different races if we were all created by two people?

Heaven and Hell?! Does anyone really believe that fairy tale?There is no wrong or right, no rules. It's all fabricated cult propaganda.

For now, I'm still sticking with my theory that we're aliens morphed with apes. The aliens that discovered Earth saw monkeys had the most potential and converted them into humans. The reason the Earth is so fucked and the ecosystems are all shot is that the aliens didn't understand these guidelines, and therefore created a monster they couldn't have imagined. And then the reason outer space is so empty and purposeless is that those aliens saw what they did, discarded this project, and we are just forgotten to die and eventually perish once the sun explodes.

I'm gonna go smoke a joint and ponder that...

[SmokeSomeDoja]

Originally posted by North_of_Sanity

But what I don't get is why someone/thing would create humans (who are supposed to be superior) - Then allow them to just destroy the Earth. It makes no sense.

who said "god" is going to "allow" it?

and that alien stuff is bullshit

[Wizard In Black]

In science terms, we're created by carbon. In Religious terms, by God and his 7 days of boredom. There is no point to our existence apart from reproducing if your thinking in science and evolution terms, but there is a point to our existence and the way we live our lives on a daily basis in human terms. I don't believe in God, but I do believe in a higher spirituality and while it's pretty much scientifically certain that we were created by space dust, I do believe that we are here for a reason. It's a shame that while we have this amazing gift of life on this planet, the only thing we want to do is fuck it up even more. Sea temperatures have gone up 2 degrees in the past 10 years and the o-zone is getting thinner by the minute. If theres a single nation to take heed of the problems resulting in the ecosystem, it's America, but is Mr Bush gonna take notice? I don't really think so, after all, theres all that oil in Iraq to use up!

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by Wizard In Black
...it's pretty much scientifically certain that we were created by space dust...

Explain...

[Rich]

Originally posted by Wizard In Black
... is Mr Bush gonna take notice? I don't really think so, after all, theres all that oil in Iraq to use up!

errr... If you want to get into politics, at least do your DD. Their are no values in political parties its all about power. Parties take sides on issues not necessarily because its popular but because they have to take some side on an issue to be elected.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Wizard In Black
... is Mr Bush gonna take notice? I don't really think so, after all, theres all that oil in Iraq to use up!

errr... If you want to get into politics, at least do your DD. Their are no values in political parties its all about power. Parties take sides on issues not necessarily because its popular but because they have to take some side on an issue to be elected.

Think about this though, we could just drill in Alaska if nothing but oil was our prerogative. If we were to allow gas prices to sky rocket, our economy, along with all the players in this global economy, would be sacrificing potential reinvestment opportunities to perform research into new more eviromentally-friendly alternatives, due to the decrease in consumer demand (reflected upon the unsubstantiated spike in oil prices).

just my 2 cents.

[Ego Tripping]

I used to be evolutionist, and an atheist, but that's changed over the years.

Evolution does seem to make sense, but once I started studying more, I realized it contradicts itself by The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy to be more specific.

Entropy is described as:

en·tro·py ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-p)
n. pl. en·tro·pies
Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.


Everything in our life, post-Big Bang is decaying. The 'natural order' of things is to decay. But what Evoultion won't account for, is it requires a system that gets better over time. One that has more information being put into it, to become adapted. For some reason, we've become smarter, while other animals' intelligence remains constant. Why are we getting more efficient though? Where's all the extra information for our DNA coming from?

The next problem I ran into was how we come together to begin with. Our bodies have cells in them. In the cells are DNA, and within the DNA strand is 20 amino acid chains. These have to be a certain exact pattern to work right. If even one is off, it could turn out to be something entirely different.

20p = 2432902008176640000 possible combinations (I believe I did this right). That means the chance of your DNA being as it is, has a once in chance probability out of the number above.

That bassically contradicts the other definition of Entropy, that order cannot come from disorder.

Lets say you have a glass tube filled with red + blue sand, both perfectly seperate. If you shake it enough, what are the chances they will mix almost entirely? 100%.

If you keep shaking, what are the chances that both colors will be come perfectly seperated again? 0%

But Evolution needs this to work.


At it's most detailed view, Evolution still needs a "motivation" behind it. A reason for all components to come together perfectly, in a world where everyday physics state it's a near impossibility. If Evolution is how we got to be the way we are today, the idea of a "god" simply must be applied for it to make sense. Otherwise, "it just is", and in Science, that's not an acceptable answer. Evolution is like taking a huge gamble, and winning every single time, with not one miss. Any hardcore Evolutionist can admit (if they are well versed on it) that it doesn't make sense, compared to the world around us. And even Darwin died a Christian.

[North_of_Sanity]

Whatever...I still think we're aliens morphed with apes.

[North_of_Sanity]

Originally posted by SublimePhish187
there has to be creation, physics dictates that, energy cannot be created or destroyed, so where did everything needed to start the big bang, there has to be a creator

It's "matter" that supposedly can't be created or destroyed - only "changed in form."

If that's true, then how do you explain how a seedling can turn into a huge 200ft tall redwood tree?

Things create itself all the time. It's LIFE!

[Ego Tripping]

Originally posted by North_of_Sanity
It's "matter" that supposedly can't be created or destroyed - only "changed in form."

If that's true, then how do you explain how a seedling can turn into a huge 200ft tall redwood tree?

Things create itself all the time. It's LIFE!

You are mistaken. That seedling fell off a 200ft Redwood to begin with. Then you're back to the age-old question, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

The Big Bang states that all the matter and energy in our Universe was condensed into a singularity, which exploded at one point. But no Astronomist can tell you what came before, or how the matter was created. Simply, 'it always was', and that means it's eternal, and that means it's "God." It might not be the Christian or Catholic definition of "God", but it's still a higher power or force. Without it, life makes no sense.

Keep in mind, everything you see isn't really what's there. Atoms, the very essence you are made of, are a complete mystery to us. Normal physics don't apply in the subatomic world.

[theorangejulius]

Originally posted by Ego Tripping
I used to be evolutionist, and an atheist, but that's changed over the years.

Evolution does seem to make sense, but once I started studying more, I realized it contradicts itself by The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy to be more specific.

Entropy is described as:

en·tro·py ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-p)
n. pl. en·tro·pies
Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.


Everything in our life, post-Big Bang is decaying. The 'natural order' of things is to decay. But what Evoultion won't account for, is it requires a system that gets better over time. One that has more information being put into it, to become adapted. For some reason, we've become smarter, while other animals' intelligence remains constant. Why are we getting more efficient though? Where's all the extra information for our DNA coming from?

The next problem I ran into was how we come together to begin with. Our bodies have cells in them. In the cells are DNA, and within the DNA strand is 20 amino acid chains. These have to be a certain exact pattern to work right. If even one is off, it could turn out to be something entirely different.

20p = 2432902008176640000 possible combinations (I believe I did this right). That means the chance of your DNA being as it is, has a once in chance probability out of the number above.

That bassically contradicts the other definition of Entropy, that order cannot come from disorder.

Lets say you have a glass tube filled with red + blue sand, both perfectly seperate. If you shake it enough, what are the chances they will mix almost entirely? 100%.

If you keep shaking, what are the chances that both colors will be come perfectly seperated again? 0%

But Evolution needs this to work.


At it's most detailed view, Evolution still needs a "motivation" behind it. A reason for all components to come together perfectly, in a world where everyday physics state it's a near impossibility. If Evolution is how we got to be the way we are today, the idea of a "god" simply must be applied for it to make sense. Otherwise, "it just is", and in Science, that's not an acceptable answer. Evolution is like taking a huge gamble, and winning every single time, with not one miss. Any hardcore Evolutionist can admit (if they are well versed on it) that it doesn't make sense, compared to the world around us. And even Darwin died a Christian.

An interesting standpoint, but I think you misunderstand the implications of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. What the law states is that order will not spontaneously spring from disorder in a closed system. The story is different though, if there is energy coursing through the system, providing the 'fuel' to create order. In our case, the sun provides energy to the Earth, so the Earth cannot be considered a closed system. The 2nd law says that if left undisturbed, with no outside influences, a closed system will not become more ordered (a messy room stays messy). Enter an outside influence, such as the energy from fusion reactions in the sun's core (someone using energy to clean up and organize the room), and order can be created from disorder.

If I put enough energy into it, I could separate all of the red grains of sand from all the blue ones, and create order from disorder. I call that energy the result of nuclear fusion, you call it god.

Macroscopically, the entropy of the universe (a closed system) will never decrease. If you zoom in a little bit, you'll see that in certisolated instances entropy CAN decrease, with the simple addition of energy.

If one is looking for a 'motivation' behind evolution, look no further than the sun, natural selection, and the fundamentals of life itself. One of the fundamentals of life is the tendency and ability to replicate. Natural selection governs the manner in which life replicates, by only allowing those most fit to replicate further. In the grand scheme, these miniscule changes 'motivate' the progress of evolution.

Otherwise, "it just is", and in Science, that's not an acceptable answer.

I'm not going to pretend to know how small, isolated systems (prebiotic systems) initially began to replicate. But, I'm also not going to assume that just because we don't know how it started that a god must have been responsible. I think there is a grey area between 'just is' and 'was created by a god'. As theoretical scientists struggle through the laws of physics and chemistry, they continually shed light on that grey area.

As far as each DNA code being a near impossibility, so is the probability of the existance of the Earth itself. If you think about the billions of galaxies we can see, and the billions of stars in each of those galaxies, and all the planets surrounding those stars, it's not hard to come up with a figure on the scale of 1 in 2432902008176640000. Even though the chances are that YOU won't be the 1 in that figure, something HAS to be the 1.

Who is to say that the intelligence of other animals remains constant while only human intelligence increases? The very fact that there are so many different variations of every species, all descending from somewhat common ancestors, implies that changes affect all living species in the long run. I personally believe that the human race was solely one of the first of these organisms on which the changes began to focus on mental growth, while other organisms adaptations were focused on keeping the organism alive long enough to reproduce. Because of this, we were able to climb high enough on the food chain to gain a secure position on top of it (at least for now). If you could watch a time-lapse film of the evolution of all life except humans for the next 3 billion years, I have little doubt that something as intelligent or moreso would spring up. (Assuming our sun is still burning bright, and Earth hasn't been slammed by a wandering asteroid)

On a final note, It's so easy to forget that humans and humanoid species have only been around for a blink of an eye on the time scale of life on earth. Assuming Australopithecus as the first humanlike ancestor, 4 million years divided by the 4 billion years that 'life' has been around, that means we've only been here .1% of the time that life has been on earth. That hardly makes us special, considering what kind of intelligence could spring up in the next 3 billion years.

[Ego Tripping]

Originally posted by theorangejulius
An interesting standpoint, but I think you misunderstand the implications of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. What the law states is that order will not spontaneously spring from disorder in a closed system. The story is different though, if there is energy coursing through the system, providing the 'fuel' to create order. In our case, the sun provides energy to the Earth, so the Earth cannot be considered a closed system. The 2nd law says that if left undisturbed, with no outside influences, a closed system will not become more ordered (a messy room stays messy). Enter an outside influence, such as the energy from fusion reactions in the sun's core (someone using energy to clean up and organize the room), and order can be created from disorder.

But the Law still states the energy has to be put into the system intitially, it can't just "appear", that would contradict the idea of cause and effect, requiring A to make B. You can't make something from nothing, right?

If you apply the law you describe to Evolution as you described it, it doesn't help the theory. Like I said, Evolution requires making large bets, and always winning. If there is external energy or variables "driving" evolution along, where is it coming from?

Down to it's most philosophical implication (which it must be viewed as), Science alone, arrives at a dead end, a contradictory end.

If I put enough energy into it, I could separate all of the red grains of sand from all the blue ones, and create order from disorder. I call that energy the result of nuclear fusion, you call it god.

But it requires 1/100th of that amount of energy to simply mix the sand again. The point is that the chances of a potentially disorganized system such as our Universe, coming together perfectly without external information being put in, implies a creator, or at least a power behind it all.

Even if you obey the "natural laws of physics", you still arrive at a problem. If I decide to rob your house, I break the law. What retricts my doing so is this law. If I drop my pen, the 'law' of gravity pulls it to the Earth at a certain rate, no matter what I drop. By our logic, if a law exists, some authoritive figure would have had to place it. Even if you follow physics down to it's most complex laws, it's still logical to imply there is a supernatural essence to it.

As far as each DNA code being a near impossibility, so is the probability of the existance of the Earth itself. If you think about the billions of galaxies we can see, and the billions of stars in each of those galaxies, and all the planets surrounding those stars, it's not hard to come up with a figure on the scale of 1 in 2432902008176640000. Even though the chances are that YOU won't be the 1 in that figure, something HAS to be the 1.

Only furthers my point. Evolution is a theory based on chance, yet it seems detrimental variables never succeed.

Who is to say that the intelligence of other animals remains constant while only human intelligence increases? The very fact that there are so many different variations of every species, all descending from somewhat common ancestors, implies that changes affect all living species in the long run. I personally believe that the human race was solely one of the first of these organisms on which the changes began to focus on mental growth, while other organisms adaptations were focused on keeping the organism alive long enough to reproduce. Because of this, we were able to climb high enough on the food chain to gain a secure position on top of it (at least for now). If you could watch a time-lapse film of the evolution of all life except humans for the next 3 billion years, I have little doubt that something as intelligent or moreso would spring up. (Assuming our sun is still burning bright, and Earth hasn't been slammed by a wandering asteroid)

On a final note, It's so easy to forget that humans and humanoid species have only been around for a blink of an eye on the time scale of life on earth. Assuming Australopithecus as the first humanlike ancestor, 4 million years divided by the 4 billion years that 'life' has been around, that means we've only been here .1% of the time that life has been on earth. That hardly makes us special, considering what kind of intelligence could spring up in the next 3 billion years. [/b]

I guess my view of "God" is different than you think. I'm not speaking of the typical Christian/Catholic God that seems to rule from above and direct things...I lean more towards the Taoist view, the Unity of all.

Even if Evolution is true, I don't find it illogical to think there is a divine force behind it, motivating it to progress. This concept bridges the gap I think between Spirituality and Science.