Lower leaf necrosis maybe whiteflys or overnute?

Absynth420 · 08-06-2009, 01:00 AM

ive got a little whitefly problem, not infested, but i see a few if i shake the plants. i was wondering if this necrosis is from them or a little over or under fert? they are in a deep water culture system under a 450w t5 setup.
i trim off any nasty looking roots every week when i change out the solution, and i flush them VERY well every week with 10g R/O water through each one and a 2 hr soak in clearex, so i dont think its salt build up. pics incoming

pic one: a sample of one of the leaves in question
pic two: another burnt/damaged leaf
pic 3: the rest of the garden looks beautiful, they are 2 weeks into flowering and as you can see, the buds are swelling nicely and theres some nice trichome
formation already

i trimmed off the bottom chutes so there would be more focus on the top growth, and there were some necrotic leaves when i did that as well. the plants were fine for a couple of days, then the problem crept up to the next set of the lower leaves.

if anyone can help please let me know. ive posted with this problem before and so far none of the solutions have helped, despite the wonderful advice i have received.

desperate for help,
Absynth

Cerebro · 08-06-2009, 07:22 AM

by the pics, i'd guess at under fert
N and P def
nice looking top

sirsmokalot989 · 08-06-2009, 01:03 PM

Are you supposed to trim the roots? I would think that could cause damage as the roots are the whole plants lifeline... This is my opinion not based on fact
I've never heard of people trimming their roots... But I've never grown dwc I've seen ebb and flood and they didn't trim roots
the tops do look good... For flouros excellent
good job man

sirsmokalot989 · 08-06-2009, 01:08 PM

Also on the third picture it looks like the leaf fringes are pointing up signifieng toxic salt build up... Over nute... Or heat stress or lack of water according to jorges cannabible
how much are you feeding?

Absynth420 · 08-06-2009, 01:34 PM

i hope its not under fert, i feel like im close to being over, if anything. i only use 1/4 of the recommended dosage of botanicare organic pro line nutes on my babies and this always happens when they get to flowering... all through veg, they look darkest green and amazing, but when flowering time comes, my plants always get a few burnt leaves that begin to work their way upward, never really reaching the tops, but still enough to freak me out!
couldnt be underwater or heat, each 4 plant container sits in 6 gallons of water, and the flouros are only 78 degrees at the top of that cola.

i leech salt every week, maybe they need more time in the clearex, since i only do that for about 2-4 hours a month. but since i an using about 10 gallons of R/O water a week to flush them out manually, i reaaaly hope it not a salt build up. the reason im always posting this prob is that i always get back different answers and i still cant fix the prob, despite all the wonderful advice ive gotten from you guys

sirsmokalot989 · 08-06-2009, 08:16 PM

Well IMO if you keep having this problem right about flowering time why not transplant into soil now? It's very easy and you'd be able to control the salts and everything alot easier... Maybe just use your dwc for vegging and then switch

Absynth420 · 08-08-2009, 09:10 PM

ive never had any luck in soil AT ALL...

i always seem to burn them incredibly fast and they get very spindly. i was using sun mix #1 with the Canna line of nutes at 1/4 strength during veg and 1/2 strength during flowering. by the time i got them 2 weeks into flowering, all the fan leaves had fallen off and the entire leaf system became brittle.

in DWC i get about 50% of the bottom leaves falling off/yellowing, a little leaf curl at the top, and maybe some necrosis on the remaining fan leaves. i was told it was a cal/mag deficiency, but cal mag plus hasnt helped, since ive been using it during this entire crop.

at least with the DWC, ive gotten some VERY nice finished buds...
i just wish i could find my posts from last year, they had great pics of my harvests, but it seems like they were cleaned out of the server.

the pH is checked daily and is stable at 6.0, and the nutes are 1/2 strength, 3 part botanicare organic pro line with R/O water. the roots are very healthy and the plants are flushed very well on a weekly basis when i change out nutes. i have a very small whitefly problem, but i am unfamiliar with what type of damage they would actually cause, if any.

the problem happened with my HPS and its happening with my t5's. it happened with General Hydroponics fertilizer on one cropwith the HPS, and its happening again with the t5's and botanicare nutes. i have tried changing little things here and there hoping to isolate the problem, but i am completely out of ideas.

could i maybe need more CO2? its only 8 plants so i cant figure that would be it...

heres a couple pics of how they look now. i have cleaned up the bottom necrotic leaves from the original pics, but there are already a couple more working their way up. most of the tops arent curling at all and look very healthy, but the lower leaves are a different story...

first two are just a couple tops, and the third is the whole garden with the mother on the left that i move to a different room when the girls are sleeping

Cerebro · 08-09-2009, 08:12 PM

maybe you could try coco?
do you remember the title of the threads that were lost?

Absynth420 · 08-09-2009, 09:11 PM

today i took some more extreme measures, as i had an epiphany of sorts...
it occurred that the signs were misleading and maybe i got a nutrient lockout or just neglected to feed my babies enough...

the fertilizers im using say to replace the lost water (after i fertilize the first day) in the tank with fresh R/O water. i have been adding about 5 gallons of extra water a week with NO NUTES to each container between nutrient changes... maybe this was the problem, so i flushed my plants in clearex today for 3 hours, then rinsed out the root structures and placed them all in a fresh mix of nutes, and next time i add water, im goning to make sure to add nutes as they drink it. hopefully this fixes my problem and i will post more pics in a week or so to show the progress.

after about 4 hours in the fresh nute mix, they all look very lively again, the leaves are all pointing upward and look like theres no more droopage either.

could this have been the answer i sought all along? any thoughts on if im doing the right thing?

**v3d4** · 08-09-2009, 11:06 PM

yes i think its a case of underfeeding
and for goodness sake stop flushing with clearex, theres no reason to do that until 2 weeks before harvest

if you have the money, you might want to invest in a ppm/tds meter to see how much/how quickly the plants are taking up nutrients.

Absynth420 · 08-10-2009, 07:00 PM

BUMP... i just went down and picked up a cheapo tds meter and it says my mix is only in the 660's range... isnt that waaay too low? they are in week 3 of flowering, i figure it should be in the 1000's

i just added some more nutes and the ppm is a little above 1k. turns out what i thought was over fert, was actually under fert...

Absynth420 · 08-10-2009, 07:41 PM

OK so i found a link to a post of an older harvest that suffered tha same prob. they ended up turning out great. now that ive figured out the ppm ratio, i should have even better buds than the pics of the massive cola

over fert or need K?

Absynth420 · 08-11-2009, 03:46 PM

after finding out that my ppm ratio was about 400ppm too low, i adjusted to about 900ppm, since they are only in week 3 of flower.

After i upped the nutes, i removed ALL leaves with any sign at all of necrosis, and when i went in this morning after the lights had come back on, THERE WAS NO NEW NECROSIS!!!!!!!!111! !!!one!!!11

lets pray to the herb gods that that was my problem, and the necrosis stays away!!!

thanks for all your advice everyone!!!! I LOVE YOU ALL

Abs

Cerebro · 08-12-2009, 01:46 AM

woot
gtgh ftw

08-06-2009, 01:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	Lower leaf necrosis maybe whiteflys or overnute? NEW PIX ive got a little whitefly problem, not infested, but i see a few if i shake the plants. i was wondering if this necrosis is from them or a little over or under fert? they are in a deep water culture system under a 450w t5 setup. i trim off any nasty looking roots every week when i change out the solution, and i flush them VERY well every week with 10g R/O water through each one and a 2 hr soak in clearex, so i dont think its salt build up. pics incoming pic one: a sample of one of the leaves in question pic two: another burnt/damaged leaf pic 3: the rest of the garden looks beautiful, they are 2 weeks into flowering and as you can see, the buds are swelling nicely and theres some nice trichome formation already i trimmed off the bottom chutes so there would be more focus on the top growth, and there were some necrotic leaves when i did that as well. the plants were fine for a couple of days, then the problem crept up to the next set of the lower leaves. if anyone can help please let me know. ive posted with this problem before and so far none of the solutions have helped, despite the wonderful advice i have received. desperate for help, Absynth Attached Images Last edited by Absynth420; 08-08-2009 at 10:12 PM.

08-06-2009, 07:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
Cerebro Marine Biologist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: White Plume Mountain Posts: 3,382 Thanks: 287 Thanked 475 Times in 394 Posts	by the pics, i'd guess at under fert N and P def nice looking top __________________ The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran

08-08-2009, 09:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	ive never had any luck in soil AT ALL... i always seem to burn them incredibly fast and they get very spindly. i was using sun mix #1 with the Canna line of nutes at 1/4 strength during veg and 1/2 strength during flowering. by the time i got them 2 weeks into flowering, all the fan leaves had fallen off and the entire leaf system became brittle. in DWC i get about 50% of the bottom leaves falling off/yellowing, a little leaf curl at the top, and maybe some necrosis on the remaining fan leaves. i was told it was a cal/mag deficiency, but cal mag plus hasnt helped, since ive been using it during this entire crop. at least with the DWC, ive gotten some VERY nice finished buds... i just wish i could find my posts from last year, they had great pics of my harvests, but it seems like they were cleaned out of the server. the pH is checked daily and is stable at 6.0, and the nutes are 1/2 strength, 3 part botanicare organic pro line with R/O water. the roots are very healthy and the plants are flushed very well on a weekly basis when i change out nutes. i have a very small whitefly problem, but i am unfamiliar with what type of damage they would actually cause, if any. the problem happened with my HPS and its happening with my t5's. it happened with General Hydroponics fertilizer on one cropwith the HPS, and its happening again with the t5's and botanicare nutes. i have tried changing little things here and there hoping to isolate the problem, but i am completely out of ideas. could i maybe need more CO2? its only 8 plants so i cant figure that would be it... heres a couple pics of how they look now. i have cleaned up the bottom necrotic leaves from the original pics, but there are already a couple more working their way up. most of the tops arent curling at all and look very healthy, but the lower leaves are a different story... first two are just a couple tops, and the third is the whole garden with the mother on the left that i move to a different room when the girls are sleeping Attached Images

08-09-2009, 08:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
Cerebro Marine Biologist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: White Plume Mountain Posts: 3,382 Thanks: 287 Thanked 475 Times in 394 Posts	maybe you could try coco? do you remember the title of the threads that were lost? __________________ The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran

08-09-2009, 11:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
v3d4 fool and hypocrite Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terrapin Station Posts: 5,329 Thanks: 76 Thanked 452 Times in 280 Posts	yes i think its a case of underfeeding and for goodness sake stop flushing with clearex, theres no reason to do that until 2 weeks before harvest if you have the money, you might want to invest in a ppm/tds meter to see how much/how quickly the plants are taking up nutrients. __________________ remember our Governor Ken Gorman

08-06-2009, 01:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
sirsmokalot989 YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 233 Thanks: 177 Thanked 93 Times in 69 Posts	Are you supposed to trim the roots? I would think that could cause damage as the roots are the whole plants lifeline... This is my opinion not based on fact I've never heard of people trimming their roots... But I've never grown dwc I've seen ebb and flood and they didn't trim roots the tops do look good... For flouros excellent good job man

08-06-2009, 01:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
sirsmokalot989 YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 233 Thanks: 177 Thanked 93 Times in 69 Posts	Also on the third picture it looks like the leaf fringes are pointing up signifieng toxic salt build up... Over nute... Or heat stress or lack of water according to jorges cannabible how much are you feeding?

08-06-2009, 01:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	i hope its not under fert, i feel like im close to being over, if anything. i only use 1/4 of the recommended dosage of botanicare organic pro line nutes on my babies and this always happens when they get to flowering... all through veg, they look darkest green and amazing, but when flowering time comes, my plants always get a few burnt leaves that begin to work their way upward, never really reaching the tops, but still enough to freak me out! couldnt be underwater or heat, each 4 plant container sits in 6 gallons of water, and the flouros are only 78 degrees at the top of that cola. i leech salt every week, maybe they need more time in the clearex, since i only do that for about 2-4 hours a month. but since i an using about 10 gallons of R/O water a week to flush them out manually, i reaaaly hope it not a salt build up. the reason im always posting this prob is that i always get back different answers and i still cant fix the prob, despite all the wonderful advice ive gotten from you guys

08-06-2009, 08:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
sirsmokalot989 YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 233 Thanks: 177 Thanked 93 Times in 69 Posts	Well IMO if you keep having this problem right about flowering time why not transplant into soil now? It's very easy and you'd be able to control the salts and everything alot easier... Maybe just use your dwc for vegging and then switch

08-09-2009, 09:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	today i took some more extreme measures, as i had an epiphany of sorts... it occurred that the signs were misleading and maybe i got a nutrient lockout or just neglected to feed my babies enough... the fertilizers im using say to replace the lost water (after i fertilize the first day) in the tank with fresh R/O water. i have been adding about 5 gallons of extra water a week with NO NUTES to each container between nutrient changes... maybe this was the problem, so i flushed my plants in clearex today for 3 hours, then rinsed out the root structures and placed them all in a fresh mix of nutes, and next time i add water, im goning to make sure to add nutes as they drink it. hopefully this fixes my problem and i will post more pics in a week or so to show the progress. after about 4 hours in the fresh nute mix, they all look very lively again, the leaves are all pointing upward and look like theres no more droopage either. could this have been the answer i sought all along? any thoughts on if im doing the right thing?

08-10-2009, 07:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	BUMP... i just went down and picked up a cheapo tds meter and it says my mix is only in the 660's range... isnt that waaay too low? they are in week 3 of flowering, i figure it should be in the 1000's i just added some more nutes and the ppm is a little above 1k. turns out what i thought was over fert, was actually under fert... Last edited by Absynth420; 08-10-2009 at 07:32 PM.

08-10-2009, 07:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	OK so i found a link to a post of an older harvest that suffered tha same prob. they ended up turning out great. now that ive figured out the ppm ratio, i should have even better buds than the pics of the massive cola over fert or need K?

08-11-2009, 03:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
Absynth420 Jedi Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Undisclosed Posts: 128 Thanks: 59 Thanked 42 Times in 21 Posts	Update looks like good news after finding out that my ppm ratio was about 400ppm too low, i adjusted to about 900ppm, since they are only in week 3 of flower. After i upped the nutes, i removed ALL leaves with any sign at all of necrosis, and when i went in this morning after the lights had come back on, THERE WAS NO NEW NECROSIS!!!!!!!!111! !!!one!!!11 lets pray to the herb gods that that was my problem, and the necrosis stays away!!! thanks for all your advice everyone!!!! I LOVE YOU ALL Abs

08-12-2009, 01:46 AM	#14 (permalink)
Cerebro Marine Biologist Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: White Plume Mountain Posts: 3,382 Thanks: 287 Thanked 475 Times in 394 Posts	woot gtgh ftw __________________ The Prophet - Kahlil Gibran

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