When is War OK? - Page 2

OldMan&TheWeed · 04-29-2008, 05:28 PM

Edward Abby wrote that, “The oldest wisdom is the most reliable.” While I don’t believe this is always true, I feel it is important to understand the history of our ideas so we may question long held assumptions.

Saint Augustine, in the fourth century, is the source for the West’s concept of the Just War. He believed that while war was always a sin, it is justified under certain conditions; and if there had to be a war, it should be waged with sadness. Augustine wrote, "justa bella ulciscuntur injurias" ("Just wars avenge injuries.") meaning that those who wage war are the scourge of God and that their actions, if inspired by love, are beneficial even for him against whom it is directed. His attitude was that you have to show your love any way you can and war was simply a large-scale punishment of those who had earned it.

In Augustine’s view "just war" might be preferable to an unjust peace. Augustine maintained that use of force is sometimes necessary - although always regrettable - in a fallen world in order to restrain evil, but that its ultimate goal must be to restore peace.

Saint Thomas Aquinas added to Saint Augustine’s theory by formulating three basic rules of conduct to make war acceptable, which included:

1. Legitimate Authority

2. Just Cause

3. Rightful Intention

Even in our nuclear age, the Augustine-based "just war theory" continues to guide the rulers of Western civilization. In the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the question of whether the invasion would be a just war was posed. Many of those on both sides of the debate framed their arguments in terms of the Just War. They came to quite different conclusions because they put different interpretations on how the just war criteria should be applied. Supporters of the war tended to accept the US position that the enforcement of UN resolutions was sufficient authority or even, as in the case of the Land Letter, that the United States as a sovereign nation could count as legitimate authority. Opponents of the war tended to interpret legitimate authority as requiring a specific Security Council resolution.

JainVeganBuddha · 04-29-2008, 06:23 PM

when is war justified???

I would say, as you might imagine, that it is never justified.

Why do people even think of themselves as fictitious groups called 'countries and nations' etc...instead of one continuous Global Human Family living on the Eath as we really are.

The truth seems to be that certain barbarians among us want to control and rule over everything, hold the lion's share of wealth and power, and impose their barbaric view of the world on the rest of us. They do so by controlling 'education' (slave training), the media, armies, laws, etc. They impose their way on us from so young, and so forcefully, that most of us never even cultivate the ability to think or reason for ourselves. instead we just regurgetate/rehash their same propaganda lines about patriotism, freedom, and democracy....talk about other peoples and cultures that we know really nothing about, contemplate the propaganda they spoon feed us and let it impel us to boneheaded intended conclusions and unrighteous action, and think that we are somehow superior to others when in fact we are quite inferior and stupefied.

In the case of talking about the middle east etc....it is just backward to think we understand the plight of women children education or anything else going on over there. the correct approach is to leave other people alone and mind our own business. all we know is what the propaganda media has told us. do we really know those people. absolutely not.

The majority of the people in the west are low-class debt-slaves under the control of an extremely evil and manipulated aristocratic international elite. They do not have any worthwhile education that is intended to enlighten or make us better persons. Any parents can teach their kids to read quite easily and those kids can explore and read according to their interests for themselves--if they like and so choose. or they may be quite happy and content not reading any formal 'education'. Some people just like to live, talk, and learn things that are relevant to their lives for themselves.

Some people do not want to entrust their kids--especially girls who are more often exploited and perved upon--to some government chosen strangers who often can give a rats ass about their kids and have to watch tens of them at a time. If you really want to know why the government takes kids away from their parents at age 5 and puts them in moronic prisons where they are subjected to all types of stress, violence, and abuse for 6-8 hours a day...it is to train them to be good 9-5 industrial debt slaves and take away their ability to think and reason for themselves, their inclination to be outdoors in the air and sunshine--such as any animal has, and to get them inclined to perform for an imposed authority figure and take instructions--orders--well. read 'the underground history of education in america'...a very well written and researched book by former teacher of the year in New York John Taylor Gatto if youre interested to know more about how our families and family structure of authority has been systematically dismantled by industrial behavioral psychologists for purely economic and control motives.

If you want to know more you can watch download 'ring of power...empire of the city'...an excellent and long documentary available online...on youtube it would be called 'secret rulers of the world'.

to impose an unusual and unhealthy inclination for violence upon us....just look at the cartoons, television shows, movies, and toys our kids are purposely bombarded with. almost every boys toy comes with a gun, knife, sword, or some weapon of some sort. do you think that this is an accident or the normal nature of boys. no it is not. they are doing this to people in order to condition our minds to military and violence from an early age. fucking diabolical i know. why do they do this...because tyhe entire american ...and other...corporate power structure is tied in to an international economic heirarchy by which it is controlled ending in the european powers and secretive societies including the english crown, the vatican, and washington d.c. London is the financial branch, vatican is the branch of religious deceptive propaganda....includ ing chistianity of all flavors...and the USA is the military branch. the USA is and has never been independent of England but are said to be so for secrecy and to avoid the political and military fallout/backlash which they would otherwise be subjected to.

so damn i know that was too long...but i dont think that war is ever justified...because the forces that encourage war...economics..emp ire/colonialistic domination...are never wholesome or righteous...nor are they ever what the debt slaves fighting the wars think they are all about.

nonviolence is the only truly civilized, righteous, and enlightened way of conduct. propaganda cannot be believed. militaries and arms are always prone to be misued and abused by unscrupulous individuals--ie those who create them in the first place...and nations and countries are created and maintained only for the purpose of dividing and conquering humanity...

during all wars and conflict, enormous profits are being made by the international bankers and secret societies are consolidating power and control over the people. that is always the true purpose and cause behind wars...because those people are evil satanists and barbarians. anyone who believes the propaganda and bullshit reasons told to them by the media are just weak-minded sheep who have been conditioned to be so from an early age. they dont have a clue on what the real game is. sorry harsh but true. sorry for the length.hope some find it interesting and inviting to independent research and consideration.

THINK FOR YOURSELF AS A HUMAN BEING IN NATURE. CHOOSE NONVIOLENCE AND LOVE FOR YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS. ONLY DEFEND YOUR PERSONAL BODY AND FAMILY MEMBERS FROM DIRECT THREAT THAT YOU ARE SURE OF...AND THEN USE THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE FORCE. IN THIS WAY YOU WILL ACHIEVE GOOD KARMA, ENLIGHTENMENT , AND TRUE FREEDOM AND SUCCESS IN LIFE!

stoneric · 04-29-2008, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

ok stoneric thats a perfect example of a completely ridiculous statement passed of by you as fact. pointing out again that israel has never threatened to wipe iran off the map is probably not going to change your mind, but thats the truth.

And neither did Iran threaten to wipe israel off the map. It was all about regime change. I believe you were corrected on that point several times when you were j-wonder.

JcP · 04-29-2008, 06:46 PM

Israel threatens to attack Iran -DAWN - Top Stories; 30 September, 2004

Israel Threatens Iran Military Action - Free Market News Network

Iran Leader: Israel Will Be Annihilated

seems like both sides theaten the other with annihilation on a pretty constant basis. Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens Iran.

Rinse, repeat. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're both wrong?

stoneric · 04-30-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

Israel threatens to attack Iran -DAWN - Top Stories; 30 September, 2004

Israel Threatens Iran Military Action - Free Market News Network

Iran Leader: Israel Will Be Annihilated

seems like both sides theaten the other with annihilation on a pretty constant basis. Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens Iran.

Rinse, repeat. So, unless I'm mistaken, you're both wrong?

Actually, no. The links you provided have israel only threatening military action. ahmadinejad just talks in riddles and doesn't control the military anyway.

ProfessorMurder · 04-30-2008, 02:05 PM

Alot of the major wars were started on bullshit.

WWI - One guy was shot and by coincidence somenone invented the machine gun & tank to work the war.

WWI - Letting one guy take over Germany and then Poland and Japan bomb our harbor
and the jet engine, bombers, rockets, and nukes were created.

Vietnam - The fake gulf of Tonkin attack on the Maddox leading into occupation and the
invetion of napalm, new rifle, and choppers.

Look at all the crazy new technology in just a few years of war.
Then there's a huge lul of improvement.
Another war more gadgets to spend, break, and rebuild.

War is horrific oppurtunism at the expense of human lives, usually your loved ones.

It's basicly another black market.

JcP · 04-30-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

Actually, no. The links you provided have israel only threatening military action. ahmadinejad just talks in riddles and doesn't control the military anyway.

wasn't aware I needed to provide quotes from military leaders only. I find the most vocal spokesperson for the Iranians a pretty important source for threats.

I'll google about for more specific leaders in Iran when I get home tonight.

stoneric · 04-30-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

wasn't aware I needed to provide quotes from military leaders only. I find the most vocal spokesperson for the Iranians a pretty important source for threats.

I'll google about for more specific leaders in Iran when I get home tonight.

So if dick cheney made a threat, should I take it serious? ok, bad example. My point was that in those links you provided, ahmadinejad's threat didn't specify the use of the military, whereas the israelis were specific. I threw in the fact that he doesn't control the military as an afterthought.

JcP · 04-30-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

So if dick cheney made a threat, should I take it serious? ok, bad example. My point was that in those links you provided, ahmadinejad's threat didn't specify the use of the military, whereas the israelis were specific. I threw in the fact that he doesn't control the military as an afterthought.

Since there's over 100,000 of examples when I google for "iran threatens israel", what kind of threat (IE by whom, about what, etc.) should I like you to show you that both Iran and Israel are acting like little kids?

stoneric · 05-01-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

Since there's over 100,000 of examples when I google for "iran threatens israel", what kind of threat (IE by whom, about what, etc.) should I like you to show you that both Iran and Israel are acting like little kids?

So what? My original comment to j-wonder was about ahmadinejad's infamous speech about wiping the israeli regime from the pages of time. I also only commented on the links you provided. I don't know what your point is.

JainVeganBuddha · 05-01-2008, 01:22 PM

warmongers.

JcP · 05-01-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

So what? My original comment to j-wonder was about ahmadinejad's infamous speech about wiping the israeli regime from the pages of time. I also only commented on the links you provided. I don't know what your point is.

my point is that you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

And neither did Iran threaten to wipe israel off the map..

which is false, since Iran has threatened to wipe israel off the map.

J-wonder said this:

"pointing out again that israel has never threatened to wipe iran off the map is probably not going to change your mind, but thats the truth."

which is false because Israel has threatened to wipe Iran off the map.

so my point is that both of your statements are false. no?

JainVeganBuddha · 05-02-2008, 03:24 AM

so when is war OK??

Porcelain · 05-02-2008, 07:52 AM

War has been around since the dawn of time. It's, perhaps, the most dominant display of why humans are still animals and not these superior, intelligent creatures we sometimes like to think we are. Because the human population is bigger than ever and our weapons are much more technologically advanced war is seen in a light it may have never been seen in before.

I don't think war is ever ok. I believe that the time it takes you to resort to violence is directly in proportion to your spiritual intelligence. The war in Iraq is completely out of hand. Everything that happened during Bush's reign was basically political leaders acting like 3rd graders. My opinion is that the trillions of dollars being spent on the war should have been spent on a superior defense system for our country (to make sure something like this doesn't happen again) and on a search party for the real culprits responsible for the attack on the US. By no means does this mean that we should invade a random country and Americanize them in the process of killing innocent civilians.

NorcalCarl · 05-02-2008, 09:36 AM

Sometimes war is okay. I am glad our nation had some of its past wars. Not particularly any in the past 40 or so years. Wars get us many things and some people must be stood up to. Classic example is WWII if we didn't fight the world would be much worse off. Assuming Hitler would of won.
Also War got us a lot of land. I would be living in Mexico if it wasn't for the Spanish American war.

ProfessorMurder · 05-02-2008, 11:38 AM

There are alot of similarities between Hitler and Manifest Destiny.

In his second book, Hitler credits U.S. and Manifest "Land Grab/Genocide" Destiny as a solution for his "Jewish Problem".

"Japan lacks true natural resources. Japan, the only Asian country with a
burgeoning industrial economy at that time, feared that a lack of raw
materials might hinder its ability to fight a total war against a reinvigorated
Soviet Union. In the hopes of expanding its resources, Japan invaded
Manchuria in 1931 and set about to consolidate its resources and develop its
economy"

Apparently we don't like it when other's use our own policies against us.

The Spanish American war was for Cuba and Guam and the Phillipines.
(Another Fake War with "Yellow Journalism" Propaganda WarMongering "Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain")

Alot of people see war as Good V. Evil, but in reality it's Evil V. Evil.

stoneric · 05-02-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

my point is that you said this:

which is false, since Iran has threatened to wipe israel off the map.

J-wonder said this:

"pointing out again that israel has never threatened to wipe iran off the map is probably not going to change your mind, but thats the truth."

which is false because Israel has threatened to wipe Iran off the map.

so my point is that both of your statements are false. no?

I was talking about a specific quote by ahmadinejad that has been brought up here several times, hence my telling j-wonder he had been corrected before. But I think you knew that. Fuck it man.

04-29-2008, 05:28 PM	#21 (permalink)
OldMan&TheWeed The Old Man and the Weed Join Date: May 2006 Location: The West Posts: 1,280 Thanks: 7 Thanked 64 Times in 36 Posts	Edward Abby wrote that, “The oldest wisdom is the most reliable.” While I don’t believe this is always true, I feel it is important to understand the history of our ideas so we may question long held assumptions. Saint Augustine, in the fourth century, is the source for the West’s concept of the Just War. He believed that while war was always a sin, it is justified under certain conditions; and if there had to be a war, it should be waged with sadness. Augustine wrote, "justa bella ulciscuntur injurias" ("Just wars avenge injuries.") meaning that those who wage war are the scourge of God and that their actions, if inspired by love, are beneficial even for him against whom it is directed. His attitude was that you have to show your love any way you can and war was simply a large-scale punishment of those who had earned it. In Augustine’s view "just war" might be preferable to an unjust peace. Augustine maintained that use of force is sometimes necessary - although always regrettable - in a fallen world in order to restrain evil, but that its ultimate goal must be to restore peace. Saint Thomas Aquinas added to Saint Augustine’s theory by formulating three basic rules of conduct to make war acceptable, which included: 1. Legitimate Authority 2. Just Cause 3. Rightful Intention Even in our nuclear age, the Augustine-based "just war theory" continues to guide the rulers of Western civilization. In the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the question of whether the invasion would be a just war was posed. Many of those on both sides of the debate framed their arguments in terms of the Just War. They came to quite different conclusions because they put different interpretations on how the just war criteria should be applied. Supporters of the war tended to accept the US position that the enforcement of UN resolutions was sufficient authority or even, as in the case of the Land Letter, that the United States as a sovereign nation could count as legitimate authority. Opponents of the war tended to interpret legitimate authority as requiring a specific Security Council resolution. __________________ The above story is a work of fiction and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

04-29-2008, 06:23 PM	#22 (permalink)
JainVeganBuddha YaHookan Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 278 Thanks: 10 Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts	when is war justified??? I would say, as you might imagine, that it is never justified. Why do people even think of themselves as fictitious groups called 'countries and nations' etc...instead of one continuous Global Human Family living on the Eath as we really are. The truth seems to be that certain barbarians among us want to control and rule over everything, hold the lion's share of wealth and power, and impose their barbaric view of the world on the rest of us. They do so by controlling 'education' (slave training), the media, armies, laws, etc. They impose their way on us from so young, and so forcefully, that most of us never even cultivate the ability to think or reason for ourselves. instead we just regurgetate/rehash their same propaganda lines about patriotism, freedom, and democracy....talk about other peoples and cultures that we know really nothing about, contemplate the propaganda they spoon feed us and let it impel us to boneheaded intended conclusions and unrighteous action, and think that we are somehow superior to others when in fact we are quite inferior and stupefied. In the case of talking about the middle east etc....it is just backward to think we understand the plight of women children education or anything else going on over there. the correct approach is to leave other people alone and mind our own business. all we know is what the propaganda media has told us. do we really know those people. absolutely not. The majority of the people in the west are low-class debt-slaves under the control of an extremely evil and manipulated aristocratic international elite. They do not have any worthwhile education that is intended to enlighten or make us better persons. Any parents can teach their kids to read quite easily and those kids can explore and read according to their interests for themselves--if they like and so choose. or they may be quite happy and content not reading any formal 'education'. Some people just like to live, talk, and learn things that are relevant to their lives for themselves. Some people do not want to entrust their kids--especially girls who are more often exploited and perved upon--to some government chosen strangers who often can give a rats ass about their kids and have to watch tens of them at a time. If you really want to know why the government takes kids away from their parents at age 5 and puts them in moronic prisons where they are subjected to all types of stress, violence, and abuse for 6-8 hours a day...it is to train them to be good 9-5 industrial debt slaves and take away their ability to think and reason for themselves, their inclination to be outdoors in the air and sunshine--such as any animal has, and to get them inclined to perform for an imposed authority figure and take instructions--orders--well. read 'the underground history of education in america'...a very well written and researched book by former teacher of the year in New York John Taylor Gatto if youre interested to know more about how our families and family structure of authority has been systematically dismantled by industrial behavioral psychologists for purely economic and control motives. If you want to know more you can watch download 'ring of power...empire of the city'...an excellent and long documentary available online...on youtube it would be called 'secret rulers of the world'. to impose an unusual and unhealthy inclination for violence upon us....just look at the cartoons, television shows, movies, and toys our kids are purposely bombarded with. almost every boys toy comes with a gun, knife, sword, or some weapon of some sort. do you think that this is an accident or the normal nature of boys. no it is not. they are doing this to people in order to condition our minds to military and violence from an early age. fucking diabolical i know. why do they do this...because tyhe entire american ...and other...corporate power structure is tied in to an international economic heirarchy by which it is controlled ending in the european powers and secretive societies including the english crown, the vatican, and washington d.c. London is the financial branch, vatican is the branch of religious deceptive propaganda....includ ing chistianity of all flavors...and the USA is the military branch. the USA is and has never been independent of England but are said to be so for secrecy and to avoid the political and military fallout/backlash which they would otherwise be subjected to. so damn i know that was too long...but i dont think that war is ever justified...because the forces that encourage war...economics..emp ire/colonialistic domination...are never wholesome or righteous...nor are they ever what the debt slaves fighting the wars think they are all about. nonviolence is the only truly civilized, righteous, and enlightened way of conduct. propaganda cannot be believed. militaries and arms are always prone to be misued and abused by unscrupulous individuals--ie those who create them in the first place...and nations and countries are created and maintained only for the purpose of dividing and conquering humanity... during all wars and conflict, enormous profits are being made by the international bankers and secret societies are consolidating power and control over the people. that is always the true purpose and cause behind wars...because those people are evil satanists and barbarians. anyone who believes the propaganda and bullshit reasons told to them by the media are just weak-minded sheep who have been conditioned to be so from an early age. they dont have a clue on what the real game is. sorry harsh but true. sorry for the length.hope some find it interesting and inviting to independent research and consideration. THINK FOR YOURSELF AS A HUMAN BEING IN NATURE. CHOOSE NONVIOLENCE AND LOVE FOR YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS. ONLY DEFEND YOUR PERSONAL BODY AND FAMILY MEMBERS FROM DIRECT THREAT THAT YOU ARE SURE OF...AND THEN USE THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE FORCE. IN THIS WAY YOU WILL ACHIEVE GOOD KARMA, ENLIGHTENMENT , AND TRUE FREEDOM AND SUCCESS IN LIFE! __________________ Nonviolence Toward All Life Forms OVERSTONED BY TOP SECRET G13

04-30-2008, 02:05 PM	#26 (permalink)
ProfessorMurder Jackal Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rio Grande Valley, Texas Posts: 642 Thanks: 2 Thanked 28 Times in 25 Posts	Alot of the major wars were started on bullshit. WWI - One guy was shot and by coincidence somenone invented the machine gun & tank to work the war. WWI - Letting one guy take over Germany and then Poland and Japan bomb our harbor and the jet engine, bombers, rockets, and nukes were created. Vietnam - The fake gulf of Tonkin attack on the Maddox leading into occupation and the invetion of napalm, new rifle, and choppers. Look at all the crazy new technology in just a few years of war. Then there's a huge lul of improvement. Another war more gadgets to spend, break, and rebuild. War is horrific oppurtunism at the expense of human lives, usually your loved ones. It's basicly another black market. __________________ "No contaban con mi astucia!" Last edited by ProfessorMurder; 04-30-2008 at 02:08 PM.

05-01-2008, 01:22 PM	#31 (permalink)
JainVeganBuddha YaHookan Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 278 Thanks: 10 Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts	warmongers. __________________ Nonviolence Toward All Life Forms OVERSTONED BY TOP SECRET G13

05-02-2008, 03:24 AM	#33 (permalink)
JainVeganBuddha YaHookan Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 278 Thanks: 10 Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts	so when is war OK?? __________________ Nonviolence Toward All Life Forms OVERSTONED BY TOP SECRET G13

05-02-2008, 09:36 AM	#35 (permalink)
NorcalCarl YaHookan Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 182 Thanks: 17 Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts	Sometimes war is okay. I am glad our nation had some of its past wars. Not particularly any in the past 40 or so years. Wars get us many things and some people must be stood up to. Classic example is WWII if we didn't fight the world would be much worse off. Assuming Hitler would of won. Also War got us a lot of land. I would be living in Mexico if it wasn't for the Spanish American war.

05-02-2008, 11:38 AM	#36 (permalink)
ProfessorMurder Jackal Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rio Grande Valley, Texas Posts: 642 Thanks: 2 Thanked 28 Times in 25 Posts	There are alot of similarities between Hitler and Manifest Destiny. In his second book, Hitler credits U.S. and Manifest "Land Grab/Genocide" Destiny as a solution for his "Jewish Problem". "Japan lacks true natural resources. Japan, the only Asian country with a burgeoning industrial economy at that time, feared that a lack of raw materials might hinder its ability to fight a total war against a reinvigorated Soviet Union. In the hopes of expanding its resources, Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 and set about to consolidate its resources and develop its economy" Apparently we don't like it when other's use our own policies against us. The Spanish American war was for Cuba and Guam and the Phillipines. (Another Fake War with "Yellow Journalism" Propaganda WarMongering "Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain") Alot of people see war as Good V. Evil, but in reality it's Evil V. Evil. __________________ "No contaban con mi astucia!"