When is War OK?

[JainVeganBuddha]

it seems like you guys have totally hijacked this thread and lost complete sight of the point of the thread.... with regard to what you are talking about...does it really matter? cant you jutthink for yourselves??....dont mean to sound rude but...

by the way, when you post all of these mainstream media links and sources...that implies that you think there is some credibility to such media....and on that point i would beg to differ. such sources are both quite twisted/warped as well as selective. yore just sipping the cool-aid from the toxic propaganda mahine.

[marauder]

war is shit but it happens. there will never be a world with no war get it in your head man. your idea of a perfect world with no war is so retarded

[JainVeganBuddha]

i see it as an individual thing...like karma

[BMFMonoxide]

War is justified in some situations. A pretty clear way to draw the line for me is....

...that the War in Afghanistan is justified but the War in Iraq is not.

Lets' face it, war is ugly and horrible but we're kidding ourselves if we think that humans can stop war.

For example....

The hippies are dumb enough to think that they ended the Vietnam War. The war ended because America's military couldn't take the stress of neverending deployments (mainly by draftees). By 1975, the straw broke the camel's back. There are many, many other reasons why America was forced to pull out but the anti-war crowd had very little to do with it.

What adds to the viciousness of war is that it's rarely ever black-and-white. So much good AND bad can come out of it. (Ex. The Allied Forces stopped Hitler and the Japanese from killing millions of more innocent people but hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers died in the process.)


Whether you lean anti-war or pro-war, never convince yourself that you have all the answers.

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

The hippies are dumb enough to think that they ended the Vietnam War. The war ended because America's military couldn't take the stress of neverending deployments (mainly by draftees). By 1975, the straw broke the camel's back. There are many, many other reasons why America was forced to pull out but the anti-war crowd had very little to do with it.

wow

just fricken wow

I have never heard of a hippie making the claim that hippies ended the vietnam war.

America's military couldn't take the strain because the american public was thinking "enough with this war shit already".

Sure sounds like hippie thinking to me.

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by generic_hippie

wow

just fricken wow

I have never heard of a hippie making the claim that hippies ended the vietnam war.

America's military couldn't take the strain because the american public was thinking "enough with this war shit already".

Sure sounds like hippie thinking to me.

Well...in America, I've run into many of those counter-culture geriatrics who think they ended the war by protesting and going to Neil Young concerts.

The war did not end because America was fed up with war. That's just Hollywood fairytale bullshit. Yes...America wanted out but the powers-that-be didn't pull out for that reason. They understood that the military couldn't take the strain any longer. They found an opening to get out and they took it. Plus, the communists in SE Asia grew so powerful that victory would have only come from nuking the place. (which of course is lunacy)

Would the war have continued into the 1980's if the public had been more supportive???? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, any military strategist/historian would tell you that the war would have been over by 1970 if America had fought the war like they did in WW2 (the "take no prisoners no matter what the cost" approach). However, the military-industrial complex didn't want a quick war. Just like in Iraq. There are more private contractors than there are troops. Did you think they want to end the occupation when there is billions of dollars in it for them to keep it going????

Sorry if I got a bit off track.

[JainVeganBuddha]

war is for violent people

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Well...in America, I've run into many of those counter-culture geriatrics who think they ended the war by protesting and going to Neil Young concerts.

so like, there's no links or anything quotable to back up this statement, its just broad stereotyping...

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

The war did not end because America was fed up with war. That's just Hollywood fairytale bullshit. Yes...America wanted out but the powers-that-be didn't pull out for that reason. They understood that the military couldn't take the strain any longer. They found an opening to get out and they took it. Plus, the communists in SE Asia grew so powerful that victory would have only come from nuking the place. (which of course is lunacy)

So let's see, the whole anti-war sentiment that drove the opposition to conscription had nothing to do with the strain the military was under?

Is that what you're saying?

Or has that part of your reasoning escaped your attention?

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Would the war have continued into the 1980's if the public had been more supportive???? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, any military strategist/historian would tell you that the war would have been over by 1970 if America had fought the war like they did in WW2 (the "take no prisoners no matter what the cost" approach). However, the military-industrial complex didn't want a quick war. Just like in Iraq. There are more private contractors than there are troops. Did you think they want to end the occupation when there is billions of dollars in it for them to keep it going????

This is exactly in line with what I've said about america and the american economy being built around the need for conflict and ongoing war. Without war and conquest, the american economy would implode.

Not to mention all those killers you'd be forced to re-integrate into mainstream american society. WTF are you going to do with all those people trained to kill? Planning a major expansion of your already massive prison system?

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Sorry if I got a bit off track.

I pushed you off track because I needed you to see how ridiculous the circle of your war is.

[Bad dog]

war is not ever ok.
in society we teach each other to solve our differences in non violent ways.
how can a country that expects it's citizens to behave non violently then make war?

man kind as a species is very young. we are also very immature, still in the kindergarden stage.

one can only hope that one day we shall evolve and replace war.

this is already happenning, believe it or not. there are less wars going on now than ever before and those wars are far less bloody.

when the potential for modern warfare began in WW1, remember that on the first MORNING of the Battle of the Somme, both sides recieved over 100 000 casualties.
200 000 dead or injured in just one morning.

todays warfare is quicker and less bloody.

infact it is wrong to describe today's wars as wars at all. They are conflicts.
incedently, civil wars have always tended to be far bloodier than regular wars.

when is it alright for people to wage war against their own countrymen?

[Terry]

A couple classic quotations on the subject:

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -Bertrand Russell

"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." -David Friedman

"The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." -Omar Bradley



actually I think that last one would make a good sig quote

[Dex]

There are times in history, where people needed to bombed to the fucking stoneage. WW2's Axis powers are a good example.

If UN drafted up a resolution saying "we are going to war with N. Korea", I'd be for it if we weren't already overstressed with iraq/afghanistan. There are concentration camps and all sorts of bad things in N. Korea. Those people need to be liberated.

[Bad dog]

Originally Posted by Dex

There are times in history, where people needed to bombed to the fucking stoneage. WW2's Axis powers are a good example.

If UN drafted up a resolution saying "we are going to war with N. Korea", I'd be for it if we weren't already overstressed with iraq/afghanistan. There are concentration camps and all sorts of bad things in N. Korea. Those people need to be liberated.

If the allies had been easier on the germans after WW1 or if they had shown an earlier will to stand up to Hitler when he was new and less powerfull then there would have been no WW2.

[ProfessorMurder]

I wonder how Switzerland does it?


Oh yeah, they bank role the war and the profits.


I noticed that in WWII the Allies had pictures and recon of concentration camps, crematoria, and trains.

They never say this but, I think one of the reasons why "we" didn't liberate the camps sooner
was because Hitler was sending more of his SS unitst to kill Jews, not Americans.

The Allies let the Jews become a Third "Ghost Front"

There are less nazi's to fight if they're all killing jews in the east while "we're" in the west.

[verklingen]

^ that makes like no sense whatsoever.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Dex

There are times in history, where people needed to bombed to the fucking stoneage. WW2's Axis powers are a good example.

If UN drafted up a resolution saying "we are going to war with N. Korea", I'd be for it if we weren't already overstressed with iraq/afghanistan. There are concentration camps and all sorts of bad things in N. Korea. Those people need to be liberated.

Just when I thought you were learning....

[ProfessorMurder]

Neither did the travel/immigration restrictions on Jews to America and Britain and elsewhere.


Aliyah Bet: Illegal immigration (1933-1948)

The British government limited Jewish immigration to Palestine with quotas, and following
the rise of Nazism to power in Germany, illegal immigration to Palestine commenced. The
illegal immigration was known as Aliyah Bet ("secondary immigration"), or Ha'apalah, and
was organized by the Mossad Le'aliyah Bet, as well as by the Irgun. Immigration was
done mainly by sea, and to a lesser extent overland through Iraq and Syria. Beginning in
1939 Jewish immigration was further restricted, limiting it to 75,000 individuals for a
period of five years after which immigration was to end completely. The British made it
illegal to sell land to Jews in 95% of the Mandate.[citation needed] During World War II
and the years that followed until independence, Aliyah Bet became the main form of
Jewish immigration to Palestine.

Following the war, Berihah ("flight"), an organization of former partisans and ghetto
fighters was primarily responsible for smuggling Jews from Poland and Eastern Europe to
the Italian ports from which they traveled to Palestine.

Despite British efforts to curb the illegal immigration, during the 14 years of its operation,
110,000 Jews immigrated to Palestine.

In 1945 reports of the Holocaust with its 6 million Jewish dead caused many Jews in
Palestine to turn openly against the British Mandate, and illegal immigration escalated
rapidly as many Holocaust survivors joined the Aliyah."

[ProfessorMurder]

Briefly, the accusations against Kastner are as follows:

Dr. Rudolf Verba, a Doctor of Science now serving at the British Medical
Research Council, was one of the few escapees from Auschwitz. In his
memoirs published in February, 1961, in the London Daily Herald he wrote:

I am a Jew. In spite of that - indeed because of that - I accuse certain
Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war.

This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in
Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence.
Among them was Dr. Kastner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in
Hungary…

While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz - the number is still on my
arm - I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations…I took these terrible
statistics with me when I escaped in I944 and I was able to give Hungarian
Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of
their Jews to his gas chambers… Kastner went to Eichmann and told him, 'I
know of your plans: spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.'

Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kastner up in S.S. uniform and took
him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end
there.

Kastner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune,
Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to
set himself up in the Argentine…'22


These accusations are confirmed by the ‘Eichmann Confessions’ published in
Life magazine, 28 November and 5 December, I960: