When is War OK?

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by stoneric

the "hippies" had plenty to do with turning the attitude of the country against the war and without that we'd still be there.

I'm sorry but that's total bullshit. The hippies were just an annoying pimple on the ass of the anti-war movement. Opinion only turned entirely against the war when regular everyday people were fed up with it. "Everyday people" as in people who didn't identify themselves with any sort of counter-culture movement. They weren't fed up with it because of the zonked-out activists....they were fed up because they were seeing people from their own communities come home dead and wounded without a clear reason why we were over there. It's as simple as that. I'm tired of the hippies trying to take credit for ending the war. It's just revisionist history that people have actually bought into because of how Hollywood has produced Vietnam movies.

Anyway...we're getting way off topic. This isn't a Vietnam war discussion.

As I said before, war is neccessary when it is just. I define "just" by defending one's self or one's allies when diplomacy is futile or useless. When it comes to war I'm not Dennis Kucinich but I'm also not Curtis LeMay.

[stoneric]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

I'm sorry but that's total bullshit. The hippies were just an annoying pimple on the ass of the anti-war movement. Opinion only turned entirely against the war when regular everyday people were fed up with it. "Everyday people" as in people who didn't identify themselves with any sort of counter-culture movement. They weren't fed up with it because of the zonked-out activists....they were fed up because they were seeing people from their own communities come home dead and wounded without a clear reason why we were over there. It's as simple as that. I'm tired of the hippies trying to take credit for ending the war. It's just revisionist history that people have actually bought into because of how Hollywood has produced Vietnam movies.

Since I lived it I don't have to rely on hollywood or you to tell me how it was.

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by stoneric

Since I lived it I don't have to rely on hollywood or you to tell me how it was.

Did you serve? I'm just asking because two of my uncles did. One was killed in 1968 and the other was wounded in 1971. It nearly tore my mother's family apart. Both opposed the war. My uncle who survived is currently a military recruiter (the Army reserves). He has told me about what it was like back then to the smallest detail (not the least of which is his unflattering opinion of the counter-culture movement). I convinced him to be 100% candid with me because I told him it was for my final report in High school. One thing that I thought was cool was that he admitted to smoking weed over there.

His current position on Vietnam is that we shouldn't have gone in but the way that many people in the anti-war movement acted actually led to more deaths. That's not to say that any person who opposed the war should have kept their mouths shut. However, there's a responsible way to protest and stand up for what you believe without trying to bring down the country whose freedoms you're exploiting. People like Jane Fonda never understood that.

***I really don't want to get in a debate with you. I don't particularly like you very much, to be honest. We got into a debate some months ago and you called me every name under the sun. All I did was voice a fairly moderate position of Iraq and you tried painting me as a right-wing, foaming-at-the-mouth war hungry zealot. Apparently, I wasn't far enough to the Left for your tastes.***

P.S. Playing the "I was alive back then so my opinion is superior to yours" is extremely lame. The only reason you were around back then before I was born is because your parents fucked before my parents did. The only reason you probably think that the hippies ended the War is because you were one of those hippies. Those seem to be the only people who have the nerve to suggest such bullshit.

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by generic_hippie

I pushed you off track because I needed you to see how ridiculous the circle of your war is.

You can cut the snobbery.

You just don't know how to take "yes" for an answer. As far as Iraq goes, your opinion and my opinion probably aren't that far apart (though I'm sure we probably differ in some more nuanced ways). As for Vietnam, most of the effect that the counter-culture had on the War led to more deaths. Read what the Vietcong leaders said after the war. They became more emboldened to keep fighting when they knew how there were many who didn't just oppose the war but opposed America.

I hate war but what the counter-culture and some who oppose Iraq don't understand is that once a war begins the line between protesting and emboldening the enemy is a very fine one, indeed. God...I'm sounding like Bush right now but I should add that it's possible to protest a war without appearing weak to the enemy. My beef is mainly with those who want America to pull out tomorrow regardless of the fallout, not those who simply want the war to be over. You can't find a single military strategist worth their salt (whether they're for this war or against) who'd say that pulling out ASAP would do more good than bad.

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by generic_hippie

America has the largest per capita prison population in history dex, people incarcerated for mainly non-violent 'crimes", CRIMES LIKE DRUG OFFENCES.

you aren't reading their pamphlets again are you, you're already recruited.

True. Our law enforcement and judicial system has so many laws on the books that it seems that you're one small mistake away from getting thrown in jail. I know many people who've spent at least one night in jail and I don't even hang out with a criminal-type crowd. Most of them were stupid offenses.

However, you can't compare America to North Korea. For one, there's no proof that North Korea doesn't have more prisoners than we do. They don't have any official records that the rest of the world can look at. You can get jailed for years at a time for being though of as somebody who disagrees with the government. In America, you can scream bloody murder about the government and you can do so freely without fear of arrest.

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

True. Our law enforcement and judicial system has so many laws on the books that it seems that you're one small mistake away from getting thrown in jail. I know many people who've spent at least one night in jail and I don't even hang out with a criminal-type crowd. Most of them were stupid offenses.

However, you can't compare America to North Korea. For one, there's no proof that North Korea doesn't have more prisoners than we do. They don't have any official records that the rest of the world can look at. You can get jailed for years at a time for being though of as somebody who disagrees with the government. In America, you can scream bloody murder about the government and you can do so freely without fear of arrest.

Talk to me about proof and accountability of Korea, then refuse to mention the elephant standing in the corner that is the american policy of renditions and CIA prisons and Gauntanamo fricken Bay my friend.

Australian Man David Hicks spent five years there without trial and came home a thoroughly broken and permanently damaged human being. He was sexually abused, tortured, held for extended periods of isolation, all against the International declaration of Human rights, all at the hands of your country.

The alleged "trial" that set him free was nought but a political expedience, and was so completely farcical that a mere one of the many hundreds of prisoners held by your country in this scenario have actually been processed by this so-called system, and his name was HICKS and he was released with a gag order until after the election. Even now he hasn't been able to tell his story, and the government also changed the law specifically to stop him selling his story.

Fair dinkum dude, you see your country as the answer, I see it as a large part of the problem. If I raised my children with that "do as I say, not as I do" attitude, then I'd expect them to become full on social deviates with no regard for polite discourse.

[stoneric]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Did you serve? I'm just asking because two of my uncles did. One was killed in 1968 and the other was wounded in 1971. It nearly tore my mother's family apart. Both opposed the war. My uncle who survived is currently a military recruiter (the Army reserves). He has told me about what it was like back then to the smallest detail (not the least of which is his unflattering opinion of the counter-culture movement). I convinced him to be 100% candid with me because I told him it was for my final report in High school. One thing that I thought was cool was that he admitted to smoking weed over there.

His current position on Vietnam is that we shouldn't have gone in but the way that many people in the anti-war movement acted actually led to more deaths. That's not to say that any person who opposed the war should have kept their mouths shut. However, there's a responsible way to protest and stand up for what you believe without trying to bring down the country whose freedoms you're exploiting. People like Jane Fonda never understood that.

***I really don't want to get in a debate with you. I don't particularly like you very much, to be honest. We got into a debate some months ago and you called me every name under the sun. All I did was voice a fairly moderate position of Iraq and you tried painting me as a right-wing, foaming-at-the-mouth war hungry zealot. Apparently, I wasn't far enough to the Left for your tastes.***

P.S. Playing the "I was alive back then so my opinion is superior to yours" is extremely lame. The only reason you were around back then before I was born is because your parents fucked before my parents did. The only reason you probably think that the hippies ended the War is because you were one of those hippies. Those seem to be the only people who have the nerve to suggest such bullshit.

What's the difference if I served? What a shock your uncle, the RECRUITER, has a less than flattering opinion on the counter culture. And of course he would be 100% candid with you, after all it was your high school final report.

I fail to see how the anti-war movement caused more deaths. If no one opposed the war it would have went merrily on its way resulting in many more deaths. I know this goes against the perception of your uncle, the RECRUITER.

I don't give a shit if you like me. If I called you every name under the sun it certainly wasn't over any "moderate" opinion of yours concerning Iraq. Of course what you consider moderate might have something to do with it, after all J- Wonder considered himself to be a moderate also.

Yeah, shame on me for forming an opinion based on living thru something compared to yours which is based on the opinion of your uncle, the RECRUITER. And since I'm probably as old or older than your parents I'm lost on how I was born before you because my parents fucked before yours. By the way, I never said the hippies ended the war and no I wasn't a hippie. I didn't become one until I did my time in the army.

[ziplock]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

His current position on Vietnam is that we shouldn't have gone in but the way that many people in the anti-war movement acted actually led to more deaths. That's not to say that any person who opposed the war should have kept their mouths shut. However, there's a responsible way to protest and stand up for what you believe without trying to bring down the country whose freedoms you're exploiting. People like Jane Fonda never understood that.

Did he get into the specifics more as to why he felt that many people in the anti-war movement's actions led to more deaths? I haven't heard that before and would be truly interested in the reasons.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by Bad dog

If the allies had been easier on the germans after WW1 or if they had shown an earlier will to stand up to Hitler when he was new and less powerfull then there would have been no WW2.

But guess, what, that didn't happen. SO we were forced to correct our mistakes.

FYI anyone who thinks we went into France to liberate them from Nazi Oppression is wrong. We went in there to prevent them from soviet oppression. It was clear the war was coming to an end that all of Europe would fall under communist governments. Nonetheless, it was worth it because look at how fucked up the eastern block was from communist rule. Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Lithuania, are still hurting pretty bad from those rulers. The only half decent communist ruler was Tito - and after his rule Yugoslavia went to fucking shit real fast. The only Eastern Bloc countries that are starting to emerge out of the post eastern bloc depression are Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, and Croatia to some extent.

[JainVeganBuddha]

i cant believe they let these lunatic retards have guns and explosives...