When is War OK?

[NorcalCarl]

Sometimes war is okay. I am glad our nation had some of its past wars. Not particularly any in the past 40 or so years. Wars get us many things and some people must be stood up to. Classic example is WWII if we didn't fight the world would be much worse off. Assuming Hitler would of won.
Also War got us a lot of land. I would be living in Mexico if it wasn't for the Spanish American war.

[ProfessorMurder]

There are alot of similarities between Hitler and Manifest Destiny.

In his second book, Hitler credits U.S. and Manifest "Land Grab/Genocide" Destiny as a solution for his "Jewish Problem".

"Japan lacks true natural resources. Japan, the only Asian country with a
burgeoning industrial economy at that time, feared that a lack of raw
materials might hinder its ability to fight a total war against a reinvigorated
Soviet Union. In the hopes of expanding its resources, Japan invaded
Manchuria in 1931 and set about to consolidate its resources and develop its
economy"

Apparently we don't like it when other's use our own policies against us.

The Spanish American war was for Cuba and Guam and the Phillipines.
(Another Fake War with "Yellow Journalism" Propaganda WarMongering "Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain")

Alot of people see war as Good V. Evil, but in reality it's Evil V. Evil.

[stoneric]

Originally Posted by JcP

my point is that you said this:



which is false, since Iran has threatened to wipe israel off the map.

J-wonder said this:

"pointing out again that israel has never threatened to wipe iran off the map is probably not going to change your mind, but thats the truth."


which is false because Israel has threatened to wipe Iran off the map.

so my point is that both of your statements are false. no?

I was talking about a specific quote by ahmadinejad that has been brought up here several times, hence my telling j-wonder he had been corrected before. But I think you knew that. Fuck it man.

[ziplock]

While stoneric's wording may have been badly chosen I still found it understandable what his overall point was. He clarified it nicely with the sentence that followed the one in question. "And neither did Iran threaten to wipe israel off the map. It was all about regime change." One of the reasons I find context important to establish when analyzing quotes.

You raise a valid point JcP, that logically following the wording he was indeed incorrect. I just think this is a technicality on the side, the overall message was understandable.

Given this, his following reason (in conjunction with your own) do make, in my mind, a reasonable point:

Originally Posted by stoneric

The links you provided have israel only threatening military action. ahmadinejad just talks in riddles and doesn't control the military anyway.

Originally Posted by JcP

I find the most vocal spokesperson for the Iranians a pretty important source for threats.

We must recognize that Ahmadinejad is a political figure. As such an incredible amount of rhetoric is to be expected. That rhetoric is, as rhetoric is designed to do, meant to play to the emotions of the population in specific instances to foster support for their agenda in general. Interpreting the quote through this context can result in a vastly different conclusion than one gained through another lens. A person can and does manipulate this context to their desires.

We are then looking at a consideration that can be taken. Military figures threatening military action in specific, detailed ways, implies a vastly different context than a political figure speaking rhetorically to an audience. And though I would hope it goes without being said, I have been disappointed... Therefore, this by no means dismisses the threat that such quotations as Ahmadinejad's can represent.

There is then validity in both of your arguments. We are faced again with the importance of context.

Now on to the matter of when is war OK? Tough... As there is a tremendous amount of variables in play. We have to consider that war or just violence in general has been a method of conflict resolution for ages. It is arguably one of if not the oldest methods. It also was present long before conflict resolution as a means to survive, to get food. We are forced then to consider the use of violence or war against us and the consequences of such a situation.

In an idealistic world war is unnecessary, being superseded by the more modern methods of conflict resolution: conversation, diplomacy, compromise, cooperation, etc. Much needs to be done in order for such an event to occur, however I firmly refuse to believe it is not very possible. There is no OK in war. War is wrong, war is to be avoided, war is a horrible travesty of human integration. All attempts should be made to make sure that war is left at the wayside on our species tour of this tiny planet. Until that is done, I find it hard to believe we can consider ourselves civilized...

I enjoyed what Porcelain said on the subject, it rings with a lot of truth. The level of consequence associated with war and it's modern manifestation has raised to such an outrageous level. It is difficult to keep one's mind succumbing to apocalyptic fears in the face of nuclear war or even just nuclear deployment regardless of the official declaration of such an action. This only emphasizes the importance of war's removal from humanity's behavioral itinerary.

As has been said before and will again to be said many times more... War is a last resort. It is only to be used when your existence is threatened to the point of annihilation and there is no means available through which to pursue a resolution. In this sort of a situation I support and always will support self defense to whatever end it takes. I find it however incredibly difficult for me to tolerate the mishandling of a situation of such severity. Iraq in a sense a dynamic monument to this mishandling. It is amazing and depressing to me how people can excuse such a thing.

[JcP]

I have J-Wonder on ignore. So I had to go by "the wording".

If I misunderstood or didn't get "the nuance" that's fine, as my whole basis for comment were the words on the post.

if we are all in agreement that iran and israel are both threatening each other and neither one is "the good guy" here, then that's cool..

second nice compromise to wake up to this morning. This is nice.

[John F. Kerry]

depends on who "we all " are.

...luckily i have no deep seated desire to see eye to eye with jcp. because his head remains firmly in the sand.

[JainVeganBuddha]

it seems like you guys have totally hijacked this thread and lost complete sight of the point of the thread.... with regard to what you are talking about...does it really matter? cant you jutthink for yourselves??....dont mean to sound rude but...

by the way, when you post all of these mainstream media links and sources...that implies that you think there is some credibility to such media....and on that point i would beg to differ. such sources are both quite twisted/warped as well as selective. yore just sipping the cool-aid from the toxic propaganda mahine.

[marauder]

war is shit but it happens. there will never be a world with no war get it in your head man. your idea of a perfect world with no war is so retarded

[JainVeganBuddha]

i see it as an individual thing...like karma

[BMFMonoxide]

War is justified in some situations. A pretty clear way to draw the line for me is....

...that the War in Afghanistan is justified but the War in Iraq is not.

Lets' face it, war is ugly and horrible but we're kidding ourselves if we think that humans can stop war.

For example....

The hippies are dumb enough to think that they ended the Vietnam War. The war ended because America's military couldn't take the stress of neverending deployments (mainly by draftees). By 1975, the straw broke the camel's back. There are many, many other reasons why America was forced to pull out but the anti-war crowd had very little to do with it.

What adds to the viciousness of war is that it's rarely ever black-and-white. So much good AND bad can come out of it. (Ex. The Allied Forces stopped Hitler and the Japanese from killing millions of more innocent people but hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers died in the process.)


Whether you lean anti-war or pro-war, never convince yourself that you have all the answers.

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

The hippies are dumb enough to think that they ended the Vietnam War. The war ended because America's military couldn't take the stress of neverending deployments (mainly by draftees). By 1975, the straw broke the camel's back. There are many, many other reasons why America was forced to pull out but the anti-war crowd had very little to do with it.

wow

just fricken wow

I have never heard of a hippie making the claim that hippies ended the vietnam war.

America's military couldn't take the strain because the american public was thinking "enough with this war shit already".

Sure sounds like hippie thinking to me.

[BMFMonoxide]

Originally Posted by generic_hippie

wow

just fricken wow

I have never heard of a hippie making the claim that hippies ended the vietnam war.

America's military couldn't take the strain because the american public was thinking "enough with this war shit already".

Sure sounds like hippie thinking to me.

Well...in America, I've run into many of those counter-culture geriatrics who think they ended the war by protesting and going to Neil Young concerts.

The war did not end because America was fed up with war. That's just Hollywood fairytale bullshit. Yes...America wanted out but the powers-that-be didn't pull out for that reason. They understood that the military couldn't take the strain any longer. They found an opening to get out and they took it. Plus, the communists in SE Asia grew so powerful that victory would have only come from nuking the place. (which of course is lunacy)

Would the war have continued into the 1980's if the public had been more supportive???? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, any military strategist/historian would tell you that the war would have been over by 1970 if America had fought the war like they did in WW2 (the "take no prisoners no matter what the cost" approach). However, the military-industrial complex didn't want a quick war. Just like in Iraq. There are more private contractors than there are troops. Did you think they want to end the occupation when there is billions of dollars in it for them to keep it going????

Sorry if I got a bit off track.

[JainVeganBuddha]

war is for violent people

[generic_hippie]

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Well...in America, I've run into many of those counter-culture geriatrics who think they ended the war by protesting and going to Neil Young concerts.

so like, there's no links or anything quotable to back up this statement, its just broad stereotyping...

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

The war did not end because America was fed up with war. That's just Hollywood fairytale bullshit. Yes...America wanted out but the powers-that-be didn't pull out for that reason. They understood that the military couldn't take the strain any longer. They found an opening to get out and they took it. Plus, the communists in SE Asia grew so powerful that victory would have only come from nuking the place. (which of course is lunacy)

So let's see, the whole anti-war sentiment that drove the opposition to conscription had nothing to do with the strain the military was under?

Is that what you're saying?

Or has that part of your reasoning escaped your attention?

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Would the war have continued into the 1980's if the public had been more supportive???? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, any military strategist/historian would tell you that the war would have been over by 1970 if America had fought the war like they did in WW2 (the "take no prisoners no matter what the cost" approach). However, the military-industrial complex didn't want a quick war. Just like in Iraq. There are more private contractors than there are troops. Did you think they want to end the occupation when there is billions of dollars in it for them to keep it going????

This is exactly in line with what I've said about america and the american economy being built around the need for conflict and ongoing war. Without war and conquest, the american economy would implode.

Not to mention all those killers you'd be forced to re-integrate into mainstream american society. WTF are you going to do with all those people trained to kill? Planning a major expansion of your already massive prison system?

Originally Posted by BMFMonoxide

Sorry if I got a bit off track.

I pushed you off track because I needed you to see how ridiculous the circle of your war is.

[Bad dog]

war is not ever ok.
in society we teach each other to solve our differences in non violent ways.
how can a country that expects it's citizens to behave non violently then make war?

man kind as a species is very young. we are also very immature, still in the kindergarden stage.

one can only hope that one day we shall evolve and replace war.

this is already happenning, believe it or not. there are less wars going on now than ever before and those wars are far less bloody.

when the potential for modern warfare began in WW1, remember that on the first MORNING of the Battle of the Somme, both sides recieved over 100 000 casualties.
200 000 dead or injured in just one morning.

todays warfare is quicker and less bloody.

infact it is wrong to describe today's wars as wars at all. They are conflicts.
incedently, civil wars have always tended to be far bloodier than regular wars.

when is it alright for people to wage war against their own countrymen?

[Terry]

A couple classic quotations on the subject:

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -Bertrand Russell

"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." -David Friedman

"The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." -Omar Bradley



actually I think that last one would make a good sig quote