When is War OK?

[Center]

Just got a few questions for everyone to respond to. If anyone has any other questions that would be relevant, go ahead and add them. Lets keep this civilized please.

What 'line' do you feel must be crossed before a country should wage war on another country?

Is war an inevitability in our world? If yes, do you think it will always be that way?

Is war wrong under every circumstance or can it be justified?

[verklingen]

there are always solutions other than violence. i personally cannot accept a violent solution because it inevitably yields more of the same. if you use violence to get over someone, someone will eventually use violence to get over you.

remember that game king of the mountain? how it went on and on until recess was over or you decided to play something else?

[Center]

Exactly. Thats the truth of what people call 'karma'. You do something and people find out and WILL use the same tactics on you. I don't know all the answers to war at all, infact I'm rather torn lately...

I'll tell you this though...a few months back I said if someone attacked me I would just let myself die in the name of non-violence. I absolutely take that back. I know I would have to kill a man if they threatened my life.

Anyway...continue on

[AfroHorse]

What about tyrants, such as the taliban, is it wrong to oppose them with war? Is there any other way to "solve" a problem like that?

To me it seems more productive to get rid of people like that, than to let them continue doing what theyre doing

Of course, who really knows what the fuck the taliban do, my sources of information are questionable at best

[verklingen]

^ and when someone doesn't like what you're doing, it seems productive to them to get rid of you!

the taliban is a GREAT example. we're showing them (and much of the muslim world in general) that we don't like what they do, and that we're going to use force to try and stop them. what if they don't like what we do?. . . what are we teaching them is the proper way to get us (or anyone, for that matter) to do what THEY want? this game has been played out since the dawn of civilization, and there's no bell that's going to tell us when to stop.

[AfroHorse]

I'm all for diversity, and letting people get on with what they want to do, but when that involves forcing women to ware certain dress, not letting certain kids have an education, shouldn't you oppose them for the good of your fellow human

I'm not saying western armies should go there and impose all our values on them (which is whats happening, such as attempting to stop opium production), but you could give them a hand and get rid of people who seem to have no real good intentions

Sure, you could argue that its a cultural difference and we have no right to make judgements, but that doesn't really help the people who are on the losing side of those cultural differences

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by AfroHorse

I'm all for diversity, and letting people get on with what they want to do, but when that involves forcing women to ware certain dress, not letting certain kids have an education, shouldn't you oppose them for the good of your fellow human

opposing their ways is fine; everyone has the right to oppose any kind of behavior they want. but problems arise when that opposition becomes violent.

for example, fundamentalist christians oppose abortion. that's all well and good, but some of them blow up abortion clinics. they honestly believe they are acting in good faith for their fellow human by committing an act of violence. others, perhaps the doctor performing the abortions included, believe the right to abortion is in and of itself something which should be maintained for the good of our fellow human.

both are opinions, but one results in needless violence. those who enact this violence consider it the effect of allowing abortions in much the same way the bush administration considers their invasions the effect of sovereign nations' behaving in a certain way, but when violence is used it becomes a cause in itself. . . and the effect is always more violence/bad blood/animosity.

Originally Posted by AfroHorse

I'm not saying western armies should go there and impose all our values on them (which is whats happening, such as attempting to stop opium production), but you could give them a hand and get rid of people who seem to have no real good intentions

Sure, you could argue that its a cultural difference and we have no right to make judgements, but that doesn't really help the people who are on the losing side of those cultural differences

we've in the past maintained similarly atrocious behavior in regard to women, race, religion, etc. the only difference between our society and theirs is that at some point we decided to change all that. we can't force them to change, all we can hope to do is serve as an example. really we're serving as an example this instant and creating a self-fulfilling, violent prophecy: force is the way to get things done, so use it while you can!

instead of trying to get them to live like we do through show of force, why not prove to them that our way actually IS better? why not fix our schools and our healthcare. why not promote health and happiness amongst our citizens? the fact is that we are not happy, and while they may not be completely happy either what makes us think they'd want the system that's creating our unhappiness on top of theirs? they have to want the change, and if we want them to want to change we have to prove the effectiveness of what they'll be changing into!

[Fall]

Verk, what do you claim you would do when faced with an inevitable or current attack on your own physical well being, families well being, or property? Would you not advocate defending against a mugger or a rapist who preys on those who seem unwilling to fight back?

[AfroHorse]

i knew youd make all those points verk, as i considered them myself, but how can you demonstrate to people the virtues of living in freedom when their leaders wont allow such change even if the people wanted it. wouldnt you have to wait until some kind of (assumingly) violent revolution?

women live life better than they used to in the west, sure, but there was still violence and struggle when some women were protesting about how they were treated in victorian era england. i guess what im saying is that maybe sometimes violence is an inevitable component of much needed change

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by Fall

Verk, what do you claim you would do when faced with an inevitable or current attack on your own physical well being, families well being, or property? Would you not advocate defending against a mugger or a rapist who preys on those who seem unwilling to fight back?

of course i would defend myself, my family, friends. . . hell, even people i hardly know.
but how are you drawing a parallel between a different society choosing to behave in a different way and someone "who preys on those who seem unwilling to fight back?" their behavior doesn't threaten our ability to behave the way we want to, but an attacker rapist or whatever would be directly threatening my ability to behave the way i want. . . and in that case they would have to be stopped.

i'm of the opinion that everyone in a society should be allowed to act however they like as long as their actions don't stop anyone else from acting the way they would like. raping, stealing, and murdering don't follow that guideline.

[generic_hippie]

there was a time in my life when violence beyond impolite reasoning was a viable option for me personally

seriously though, you dont have to beat somebody up to stop them attacking you, its called self defense and is a seperate proposition from attack

[AfroHorse]

Originally Posted by verklingen

i'm of the opinion that everyone in a society should be allowed to act however they like as long as their actions don't stop anyone else from acting the way they would like. raping, stealing, and murdering don't follow that guideline.

so, what do you when someone is breaking that rule?

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by AfroHorse

i knew youd make all those points verk, as i considered them myself, but how can you demonstrate to people the virtues of living in freedom when their leaders wont allow such change even if the people wanted it. wouldnt you have to wait until some kind of (assumingly) violent revolution?

women live life better than they used to in the west, sure, but there was still violence and struggle when some women were protesting about how they were treated in victorian era england. i guess what im saying is that maybe sometimes violence is an inevitable component of much needed change

yes. . . that's possible. but that change need not come from outside, the people themselves must decide the best course to enact the change they desire. if that is violence, that is their choice. but it shouldn't be OUR choice to use violence for what we see consider THEIR cause.

if people are unhappy with their leadership, it will change. it's happened in the US, the UK, etc. and i fully expect it to happen again and again. but what if someone else had come in and told us that we MUST change and tried to direct our way of doing it? that's what we're doing in iraq, for example. first they're threatened by their own leadership, and now they're threatened from without as well! and that serves only to delay any possible hope for real, enduring change that will result in greater happiness for the people.

Originally Posted by AfroHorse

so, what do you when someone is breaking that rule?

give them a reality check.

but seriously, if it threatens my person or the person of someone else it's an offense which must be met in like kind. being offended at other stuff like rudeness or whatever is pretty lame, i only care if i'm seriously threatened.

[generic_hippie]

the transition period between any period where society is based on violence and competition, to one based on peace and equity is going to require time, and probably some catalclysmic loss of life

it is also going to require some deep re-educating of people

whole philosophies of control and authorititarian bullshit will be thrown out the window

[AfroHorse]

^^ ok, fair and pretty infallible point, but its a very long term plan, and assumes that people will always eventually escape their oppressors

and in reality, youd be crazy to think that an army from another part of the world could ever really help any situation in another country

[Fall]

Originally Posted by verklingen

i'm of the opinion that everyone in a society should be allowed to act however they like as long as their actions don't stop anyone else from acting the way they would like. raping, stealing, and murdering don't follow that guideline.

I agree completely. And on the topic of the thread, it is under those conditions which violence or war is warranted, in my opinion. Massive scale self defense.

Originally Posted by AfroHorse

and in reality, youd be crazy to think that an army from another part of the world could ever really help any situation in another country

...sure about that one?

[AfroHorse]

Originally Posted by Fall

...sure about that one?

lol okay i retract that. youd have to be crazy to think that an army ran by white christians could go to an islamic part of the world in the early 21st century.... and help