Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12 Steps

The Shombadia · 03-17-2006, 07:27 AM

Have any of you been to any of their meetings? Most of the time it takes place every night of the week. I have been suspicos of it being a cult and convincing people that the have a disease called alcoholism. I have heard people say I do the 11th and 12th step everyday of my life. I can understand it helping people and the purpose of it is being close to god. They say if you use a mind altering substance you cant be close to god. Suspicions?

The Rev · 03-17-2006, 07:34 AM

I haven't actually been to a meeting, but I've met people in AA and it DOES have its cult-like aspects. They have their own lingo, their own pressure to conform, and their own closed-mindedness about the nature of their problems.

My chief concern is that they pound the notion of "You are helpless without us" into their members' heads. Only a "higher power" can help you cure your "disease" and of course, they are closed-minded completely about this idea (accept this view or be ostracized). People are NOT helpless in their actions, however. When a person drinks, it's because he chose to. Five beers didn't hold him down while the sixth poured itself down his throat. Personally, I think the whole "helpless" angle only creates dependence on AA, and any worthy treatment plan should REDUCE dependence, by its very nature.

The Rev

The Shombadia · 03-17-2006, 07:52 AM

Have you heard of it being a disease from birth? Alcoholism

Jimmy Coonan · 03-17-2006, 08:32 AM

My problem with AA is that it isn't what a lot of people need. It's a good idea for people with really severe drinking problems, who can't drink without going nuts and who are getting into trouble because of it. Those kind of people need the structure and support AA provides, and some of them can't have a sip of light beer without feeling the urge to splurge. But it's not for people whose problems are more social, cultural or psychological in nature. People drink heavily for all kinds of reasons, not only because they are powerless over alcohol. A lot of times, it's because you feel lonely or unloved or whatever. If you sober up and deal with those problems, you can usually drink safely again. I mean, by AA standards at least 15% of the male population of most Eastern European countries are alcoholics. But they drink heavily because it's part of their culture's norms, not because they're all alcoholics. I'm not denying that a lot of them are, but the problem is with their lives and how the culture expects them to be, not with alcohol itself. Heavy drinking is just a symptom for them. Or look at how Americans, Britons and the Irish view the ability to drink huge amounts and still keep going as a sign of manhood. Most western Europeans would consider this a sign of alcoholism. If you understand why you do something, I believe, you can usually take control of the behavior.

The Rev · 03-17-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shombadia

Have you heard of it being a disease from birth? Alcoholism

It comes down to nature vs. nurture, unfortunately. As far as I know, there is no gene or identifiable physical condition linked to alcoholism (as a cause). All we can say is that it runs in families, so it might be genetic, or it might be what you learned at your pappy's knee, but no one can say for sure.

The Rev

snapshot · 03-17-2006, 12:12 PM

I've been to their meetings.

During the meetings when any individual decides to tell a story, the deeper they got into it the more fucked up those people appeared. At least that's how I perceived them.

You have to give in to God if you want to pass like the first step. Their so exclusionary that I'm glad. If they were more welcoming I'd start becoming concerned with anyone who had, even minor problems, with drinking.

JahBohl · 03-17-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev

I haven't actually been to a meeting, but I've met people in AA and it DOES have its cult-like aspects. They have their own lingo, their own pressure to conform, and their own closed-mindedness about the nature of their problems.

My chief concern is that they pound the notion of "You are helpless without us" into their members' heads. Only a "higher power" can help you cure your "disease" and of course, they are closed-minded completely about this idea (accept this view or be ostracized). People are NOT helpless in their actions, however. When a person drinks, it's because he chose to. Five beers didn't hold him down while the sixth poured itself down his throat. Personally, I think the whole "helpless" angle only creates dependence on AA, and any worthy treatment plan should REDUCE dependence, by its very nature.

The Rev

I totally agree Rev. I too haven't gone (nor would I ever need to) but I do have 2 brother in laws who attend. My main issue with them is the notion that the problem is beyond one's control, that you have to give in to some higher power for help and admit you're a failure. I think that's bullshit. I also think that my bro in laws have replaced their drinking with going to meetings 4-5 times a week (where they sit around and do drugs...cigs & coffee).

It may work for some, but I wonder why AA is so secretive about the recidivism rates. Penn & Teller did a pretty good "Bullshit" episode on AA also.

Here's an excerpt from this site:

Quote:

there are many who question not that it helps thousands, but whether its predominance may get in the way of some people finding their freedom. There are issues, some critics say, related to its quasi-religious nature, its definition of addiction as an incurable disease, the creation of long-term dependence on the program, and the way courts and other agencies mandate addicts' participation. Are some with alcohol or drug problems being coerced to follow a path that may not be suited to their needs and beliefs?

"The problem is that people think AA is the only correct treatment," says Lance Dodes, assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. "That's true only for a subset of the population, and many people are harmed by it."

Яedking · 03-17-2006, 02:46 PM

I've been to a number of court ordered ones for my DUI. It's pretty stange, and you end them with an Our Father prayer.

Mercury · 03-17-2006, 07:31 PM

I go to meetings weekly as a stipulation of probation. The people are chill though their stories can get long and boring sometimes. But really, like they say, if you want to stay sober just keep hitting the meetings. There is about 20 meetings throughout the day, every day, at various locations in my town.

Here is our serenity prayer:

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

03-17-2006, 09:45 PM

I've been to AA, NA and alanon, all of em are a huge waste of time imo. However I do believe some people do get help, it just wasnt for me.

Mikey · 03-19-2006, 03:23 PM

I've been to AA twice after two interventions and it's a big waste of fucking time. I'm just one of those stop on your own terms people.

spellbinder · 03-19-2006, 03:28 PM

the whole thing is that you have to be 100% or it wont work
AA works great if you really want to be sober, but you really have to want to be sober

me? i'm looking to get trashed

PhishDude · 03-19-2006, 06:38 PM

I know one guy that got into AA and now he's a born again christian and relates God to like everything now, even the fact that he stopped drinking.

03-20-2006, 05:21 PM

When I got locked up in detox I had to go to a few meetings. I left them and went to sleep most of the time. I am pretty sure they wouldn't help me but It might work for you so try it. By the way... every single time I was in the AA meetings a speaker always reeked of alky. Keep in mind this was at a mental hospital/detox...It smelled like whiskey.

Woods · 04-07-2006, 01:25 AM

Saying that it’s good because it works for some people is like saying that if you have cancer, not going through treatment and just praying or some useless shit like that is a good idea, because sometimes it works. There are much better programs out there, particularly the ones that let you drink. Programs that involve moderation have much higher success rates then any moralistic Christian bullshit like AA.

Patrick Rue · 04-07-2006, 04:45 AM

I agree with woods, for many it is simply an addiction trade.

generic_hippie · 04-07-2006, 02:44 PM

Yahooka's judgement is in.

AA sucks.

Bunch of retarded fuckwads with absolutely no understanding of addicition, showing yourselves to be as bad as the bigoted cunts that prohibit cannabis.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...e+Search&meta=

have a look at how there's no evidence of genetic disposition for alcoholism...

And as for AA meetings being exclusive, the only requirement for attendance is a desire to stop drinking.

That is less than it takes to become a fully fledged member of Yahooka... Again,

Bunch of judgemental bigoted cunts here, cunts with no conception of alcoholism, or indeed other addictive behaviours...

Fuck Yahooka's crew of juvenile stupidity, of life knowledge gleaned from a complete lack of life experience...

bongsmilie

Jakeisuseless · 04-19-2006, 09:08 AM

I have never been to an AA meeting, but I have probably been to hundreds of NA meetings. I was in an outpatient treatment program for 11 months, I had to go 5 or 3 times a week the whole time.

NA is completely controlled by former-addicts. It was not created by some fucking anti-pot dickheads. I do not like NA, but with the help of NA many many people have gotten sober. These are people that needed to get sober.

Pot impairs judgement. Can anyone disagree with that? (Besides GH, you don't count, you don't even get high anymore.) For the most part, NA says that pot won't fuck up your life, but it may make you really really want a beer or a crack hit. These are associated things to an addict. You smoke some pot. Your judgement is impaired. You were probably having really bad cravings anyway. You are more likely to go out and get that crack hit.

I know, I know. Pot is perfect. Of course pot is perfect.... I was lying.... pot could never lead to harm.... of course of course of course.

Seriously though, anybody who think pot isn't a drug is an idiot. Drugs are drugs, they are all different, some are better for you then others. They have benefits, but they all change how you think and what you do. Everything is connected.

04-19-2006, 09:10 AM

the meetings here are like a social without alcohol, they drink Tim Horton's extra large triple, triples. They always look happy.

Jakeisuseless · 04-19-2006, 09:13 AM

Thats basicly what they are. They are trying to replace drugs with these social AA/NA occasions, basicly. They are replacing their drug life with their AA/NA life. It works. People are much happier, generally. I personally think most AA/NA people are just weak, and rather ignorant.

Don't get me wrong. I tried my hardest to HATE NA, but it does good for the people who want it. They may be too stupid to realize that it's bullshit, or they may know it's bullshit and not care, but it does help people.

You guys a

03-17-2006, 07:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
The Shombadia †µ€ §µØ¶ßªÐïª Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along The 3rd Coast Posts: 489 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12 Steps Have any of you been to any of their meetings? Most of the time it takes place every night of the week. I have been suspicos of it being a cult and convincing people that the have a disease called alcoholism. I have heard people say I do the 11th and 12th step everyday of my life. I can understand it helping people and the purpose of it is being close to god. They say if you use a mind altering substance you cant be close to god. Suspicions? __________________

03-17-2006, 07:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
The Rev ~ Herban Legend ~ Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 11,773 Thanks: 10 Thanked 107 Times in 62 Posts	I haven't actually been to a meeting, but I've met people in AA and it DOES have its cult-like aspects. They have their own lingo, their own pressure to conform, and their own closed-mindedness about the nature of their problems. My chief concern is that they pound the notion of "You are helpless without us" into their members' heads. Only a "higher power" can help you cure your "disease" and of course, they are closed-minded completely about this idea (accept this view or be ostracized). People are NOT helpless in their actions, however. When a person drinks, it's because he chose to. Five beers didn't hold him down while the sixth poured itself down his throat. Personally, I think the whole "helpless" angle only creates dependence on AA, and any worthy treatment plan should REDUCE dependence, by its very nature. The Rev __________________ THE SECRET OF SUCCESS IN ALL THINGS IS A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH REALITY DISRESPECT INCORPORATED The Order of the Illuminati "I'm trying to envision Canada being invaded, but all I come up with is a bunch of monkeys trying to fuck a football..." -Roach R.I.P. Governor We know you're smokin wherever you are.

03-17-2006, 07:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
The Shombadia †µ€ §µØ¶ßªÐïª Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along The 3rd Coast Posts: 489 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Have you heard of it being a disease from birth? Alcoholism __________________

03-17-2006, 12:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,530 Thanks: 15 Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts	I've been to their meetings. During the meetings when any individual decides to tell a story, the deeper they got into it the more fucked up those people appeared. At least that's how I perceived them. You have to give in to God if you want to pass like the first step. Their so exclusionary that I'm glad. If they were more welcoming I'd start becoming concerned with anyone who had, even minor problems, with drinking. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

03-17-2006, 02:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
Яedking the real №1 Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,358 Thanks: 8 Thanked 26 Times in 9 Posts	I've been to a number of court ordered ones for my DUI. It's pretty stange, and you end them with an Our Father prayer. __________________

03-17-2006, 08:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jimmy Coonan YaHookan Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,034 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 73 Thanked 110 Times in 80 Posts	My problem with AA is that it isn't what a lot of people need. It's a good idea for people with really severe drinking problems, who can't drink without going nuts and who are getting into trouble because of it. Those kind of people need the structure and support AA provides, and some of them can't have a sip of light beer without feeling the urge to splurge. But it's not for people whose problems are more social, cultural or psychological in nature. People drink heavily for all kinds of reasons, not only because they are powerless over alcohol. A lot of times, it's because you feel lonely or unloved or whatever. If you sober up and deal with those problems, you can usually drink safely again. I mean, by AA standards at least 15% of the male population of most Eastern European countries are alcoholics. But they drink heavily because it's part of their culture's norms, not because they're all alcoholics. I'm not denying that a lot of them are, but the problem is with their lives and how the culture expects them to be, not with alcohol itself. Heavy drinking is just a symptom for them. Or look at how Americans, Britons and the Irish view the ability to drink huge amounts and still keep going as a sign of manhood. Most western Europeans would consider this a sign of alcoholism. If you understand why you do something, I believe, you can usually take control of the behavior.

03-17-2006, 09:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
Flowerchild Guest Posts: n/a	I've been to AA, NA and alanon, all of em are a huge waste of time imo. However I do believe some people do get help, it just wasnt for me.

03-19-2006, 03:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
spellbinder YaHookan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: sailing the high seas Posts: 313 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the whole thing is that you have to be 100% or it wont work AA works great if you really want to be sober, but you really have to want to be sober me? i'm looking to get trashed

03-19-2006, 06:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
PhishDude Telepathic Jackal Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Mars Posts: 3,877 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know one guy that got into AA and now he's a born again christian and relates God to like everything now, even the fact that he stopped drinking. __________________ Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. -- Buddha

03-20-2006, 05:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
Big-A Guest Posts: n/a	When I got locked up in detox I had to go to a few meetings. I left them and went to sleep most of the time. I am pretty sure they wouldn't help me but It might work for you so try it. By the way... every single time I was in the AA meetings a speaker always reeked of alky. Keep in mind this was at a mental hospital/detox...It smelled like whiskey.

04-07-2006, 01:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
Woods YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: the edge of somewhere Posts: 5,428 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Saying that it’s good because it works for some people is like saying that if you have cancer, not going through treatment and just praying or some useless shit like that is a good idea, because sometimes it works. There are much better programs out there, particularly the ones that let you drink. Programs that involve moderation have much higher success rates then any moralistic Christian bullshit like AA.

04-07-2006, 04:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
Patrick Rue Boss of Bluntville Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 16,432 Thanks: 356 Thanked 245 Times in 122 Posts	I agree with woods, for many it is simply an addiction trade. __________________ 6 Month Plan

04-07-2006, 02:44 PM	#17 (permalink)
generic_hippie question authority Join Date: May 2003 Location: 20 km's from Nimbin, Australia Posts: 4,180 Thanks: 61 Thanked 190 Times in 139 Posts	Yahooka's judgement is in. AA sucks. Bunch of retarded fuckwads with absolutely no understanding of addicition, showing yourselves to be as bad as the bigoted cunts that prohibit cannabis. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...e+Search&meta= have a look at how there's no evidence of genetic disposition for alcoholism... And as for AA meetings being exclusive, the only requirement for attendance is a desire to stop drinking. That is less than it takes to become a fully fledged member of Yahooka... Again, Bunch of judgemental bigoted cunts here, cunts with no conception of alcoholism, or indeed other addictive behaviours... Fuck Yahooka's crew of juvenile stupidity, of life knowledge gleaned from a complete lack of life experience... bongsmilie __________________ All we are saying is give POT to everybody all the time...

04-19-2006, 09:10 AM	#19 (permalink)
turmaline Guest Posts: n/a	the meetings here are like a social without alcohol, they drink Tim Horton's extra large triple, triples. They always look happy.