A question for atheists - Page 2

OldMan&TheWeed · 04-09-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevlar_Balzac

. . .fanatics and people who try to convert\impose religion on others need a swift blow to the temple.

Please, a blow to the temple could be fatal.

A quick gentle kick in the ass will do.

OldMan&TheWeed · 04-09-2007, 06:04 PM

As a child I was taught that religion made you a better person. That outside of religion, morality did not, could not exsist.

Today I believe that morality comes from being human, not from being religious.

I feel that religions actually allow people to act in a way that is brutally immoral, despite the apparent "morality" that they wrap themselves in. It is not right to kill people or persecute them because their beliefs differ from yours. Yet that is what most religions, as a baseline, believe; even if many don't act on it as much as they used to. But the potential is always there.

Humans seem prone to an "us vs. them" approach to life, and religion gives this mindset a perfect vehicle.

**Canuck Wisdom** · 04-09-2007, 07:13 PM

I think our world needs less questioning about what belief is right, and more emphasis on getting people to keep to their professed beliefs.

seven7crossed · 04-09-2007, 07:37 PM

i firmly agree

**DubStyle311** · 04-09-2007, 08:30 PM

I've probably said this ad nausiam but I am 99% sure that I am the only one on this website who has had a post gradeschool/CCD education on Catholicism.

For three years in highscool, I had the same teacher for theology, by choice. The teachers goal was to educate ppl on what the official teaching of the Catholic Church are. He would give a test on the first day of class about the offical teaching of the Church. Everyone fails it.

Most ppl, including the priests in most parishes, are stuck in the pre Vatican II Catholic teachings.

After learning the advanced Catholicism that theologists currently use, I am of the opinion that the Catholic Church is the most accepting, loving, and universal of all the religions out there. 99% of the time their views are misconstrued by priests and other Christian sects that preach intolerance. Catholicism is supremely tolerant of EVERYONE. They teach that Jesus offers EVERYONE forgiveness, regardless. Its doesn't matter if your gay, if you have sex before marraige, if your you don't believe in Jesus, or if your the most evil person on the planet....God offers unconditional forgiveness...you don't even have to ask for it. If you are a good person, you will be able to accept God's love, and achieve "heaven". If you are a bad person you wont be able to accept God love and thus "Hell".

I really wish that more Catholics had the opportunity to learn about their religion on an advanced level. The problem is that most ppl are introduced to it as kids. They have their CCD classes, their churches, and their catholic gradeschool educations that present their religion on its most simple terms. God is a an old man with a big white beard that judges you constantly, heaven is a city in the clouds where you get to chill with all your dead family and friends, Hell is a cave underground with fire and a monster that tortures you for eternity. Its ridiculous. If you think that those are the tenants of Catholicism, you are mistaken. Catholicism was a much different religion 100 years ago, and its a shame that most people/priests are stuck in that era.

Whatever...

**v3d4** · 04-09-2007, 08:42 PM

im interested in the advanced catholocism that theologists use. what is it? link?

**DubStyle311** · 04-09-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v3d4

im interested in the advanced catholocism that theologists use. what is it? link?

Unfortunately their is no link that presents it all in a single page. I spent 3 years taking this class I still would consider myself very ignorant of the official teaching,

It all can be found here tho

http://www.vaticanlibrary.vatlib.it

**v3d4** · 04-10-2007, 10:29 PM

well how can it be that the doctrines of the body of christ are so obscure and unknown and difficult to understand?
Jesus is the way

**DubStyle311** · 04-10-2007, 10:48 PM

How do you mean?

They're relatively unknown because the Roman Catholic church has 1700 year history of being a very harsh, unchanging, dogma oriented religion. The changes made at Vatican I & II were revolutionary and not everyone agreed with them. Many priests still grew up and were trained in that style and are unable or unwilling or unaware of the current teachings.

There is also a huge disconnect in the understanding of law between Italy and the United States that causes a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to some of the more controversial issues such as condom use. I will go into that particle issue in more detail if you guys would like.

I'm not tryin to sound like an authority, and I may not be 100% right, but this is the stuff that I learned about Catholicism, and like I said, I dont think anyone else here has been exposed to it.

The Catholic Church today is very different from the Church 100 years ago.

Waves · 04-10-2007, 10:51 PM

Wwjd?wwjt?wwjs?

moldyorangepeel · 04-10-2007, 10:54 PM

The Catholic church is nothing like it used to be. Pope John Paul II sanctioned the acceptance of evolution as long as the idea stands that it is guided by God.

**DubStyle311** · 04-10-2007, 10:57 PM

Exactly. Thats just one example of how Catholicism is changing with the times and attempting to become a more accepting and inclusive faith.

OldMan&TheWeed · 04-10-2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubStyle311

I've probably said this ad nausiam but I am 99% sure that I am the only one on this website who has had a post gradeschool/CCD education on Catholicism.

I had an excellent k-12 Catholic education. To this day I am grateful to the loving nuns (Daughters of Charity) who taught me. They encouraged us to think for ourselves, and so ironically, caused me to eventually question my faith.

But still, much of what is good in me (grammar, spelling, logic, scholarship, tolerance), I credit to Sister John Joseph, Sister Charles, Sister Miriam, and all the rest.

Waves · 04-10-2007, 11:02 PM

I think the main problem is people forgetting the actual teachings and latching onto subjective beliefs that make them feel good. This is inherent not in any religion but in humanity itself. We set up psychological barriers. In atheists this translates to them attacking others who they see as less educated. In catholics this means distorting the teachings of the bible. It is no longer WWJD but "What would I do?"

The problem plagues humanity and i believe we will eventually evolve past it. We just need to come to an area of mutual acceptence, tolerance and understanding.

**DubStyle311** · 04-10-2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMan&TheWeed

They encouraged us to think for ourselves, and so ironically, caused me to eventually question my faith.

I agree. Questioning ones faith is an important step in getting a deeper understanding of it. The fact that kids are confirmed when they are 13 or 14 years old is pretty foolish in my opinion. I believe back in the day, it happened even younger.

Confirmation really is something that you should be at least 16 or 17 to do.

moldyorangepeel · 04-10-2007, 11:12 PM

The confirmation seems like a formality. I'm sure you've heard about the Catholics who get confirmed and never go to church again, maybe when they get married or on Easter. The confirmation should be done at a much later age, I agree. Once you're no longer under such a stong influence of your parents. More like whenever you're actually ready for it. It is supposed to a rite you actually decide for yourself, but that's not really the case. If that's what it's intended to be then it should at least be done after 18.

**DubStyle311** · 04-10-2007, 11:31 PM

Here is what I was referring to when I was talking about the Church's stance on condoms and premarital sex:

The traditions of law in the United States and in Italy are polar opposites. Historically, in the United States, people believe in legislating few laws but using strict enforcement. In Italy however, its the opposite. Many laws are put on the books but the enforcement of the laws is very lax. This divergence in the legal culture proves to be a very unfortunate conflict for the Catholic Church. As I'm sure some people are aware, The Curia (or the government of the Church) are all from Vatican in Italy. They generally are the people who come up with Church's stance on particular issues.

So now, in the context of what I said before, you have Italian priests in the Curia coming up with many many rules and regulations and position that in an Italians priests mind, are going to be loosely enforced. These same rules (for lack of a better word) also apply to American Catholics. The priests in the US, in line with their own cultural understandings, take all these laws and enforce them very very strictly.

I hope I'm explaining this well so far, as I really doubt anyone has heard this before. But in my classes, the professor showed us a video on this phenomenon. They had interviews with Italian and American priests on issues like condoms and pre-marital sex. The American priest was very harsh and judgmental. He were clear in their answers that Catholics should not be have any pre-marital sex or use condoms. To do so is a sin and by sinning you're offending God a risking going to hell. Essentially its the hard line stance that turns many people off to Catholicism.

What the Italian priest said couldnt be more different. They described the Church's position on condoms and pre martial sex as "A beautiful ideal". To the Italians, these things are more guidelines than hard rules. He was fully aware that that in the current society, to expect people to not use condoms or have sex before marraige was unrealistic and in the case of condoms damaging. He also said that it is important that the Church on principal discourage people from doing such things. It was his opinion that the Ideal of not having sex before marraige was very important to Catholicism. Without such a wonderful ideal, what would people strive for. It's the model of what a loving sexual relationship SHOULD be, but realistically is not always going to happen. I really wish I could go back and watch it now so I could communicate it better but I hope you guys get the gist of it.

A lot of the ridiculously strict American Catholic tradition is a result of this cultural disconnect. In America, if you dont go to church, you have sex before marraige, or use condoms you're berated or at least informed that your being a sinner by most priests.

In the Italian and European Catholic tradition, as I'm sure some people are aware of or witnessed, you identify with being a Catholic and are accepted as a Catholic even though you don't necessarily follow every single excessive rule that the Curia has come up with over the years.

It was things like this that have given me a very different view of Catholicism than most people. As a young person growing up, its pretty ridiculous to think just because I have sex out of marraige, use condoms, and dont go to church every weekend that I am a horrible sinner.

I am sure that its stuff like that that makes other young people completely write of Catholicism as a religion one would want to be a part of.

I really would like to hear what people think of all that and I wonder if anyone has ever heard that before or can understand what I'm tryin to get across?

moldyorangepeel · 04-10-2007, 11:45 PM

interesting... ty

espiex · 04-11-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubStyle311

Exactly. Thats just one example of how Catholicism is changing with the times and attempting to become a more accepting and inclusive faith.

But doesn't that make it completely arbitrary? It's like, 'here are the fundamental tenets of our faith. Oh no, wait, we just changed them. Here are the new fundamental tenets of our faith.'

What if the Pope wakes up one morning and decrees that all true believers should forthwith wear a fez to bed? That, to me, makes just as much sense as changing the rules every so often to become more "accepting and inclusive".

God, assuming he's anything like the Bible says, has not changed. So why is it all right for humans to change their general agreement on what's acceptable to him?

moldyorangepeel · 04-11-2007, 12:39 AM

religion isn't God, and it doesn't claim to be.

"Scientific method" is more like the natural way.

04-09-2007, 06:04 PM	#22 (permalink)
OldMan&TheWeed The Old Man and the Weed Join Date: May 2006 Location: The West Posts: 1,276 Thanks: 7 Thanked 63 Times in 35 Posts	As a child I was taught that religion made you a better person. That outside of religion, morality did not, could not exsist. Today I believe that morality comes from being human, not from being religious. I feel that religions actually allow people to act in a way that is brutally immoral, despite the apparent "morality" that they wrap themselves in. It is not right to kill people or persecute them because their beliefs differ from yours. Yet that is what most religions, as a baseline, believe; even if many don't act on it as much as they used to. But the potential is always there. Humans seem prone to an "us vs. them" approach to life, and religion gives this mindset a perfect vehicle. __________________ The above story is a work of fiction and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

04-09-2007, 07:37 PM	#24 (permalink)
seven7crossed I'm Wrenchin Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New York Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i firmly agree __________________ I woke up this morning and I got high The day passed and the stars went by

04-09-2007, 08:30 PM	#25 (permalink)
DubStyle311 King of all Politics Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: living on the edge Posts: 7,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 53 Times in 47 Posts	I've probably said this ad nausiam but I am 99% sure that I am the only one on this website who has had a post gradeschool/CCD education on Catholicism. For three years in highscool, I had the same teacher for theology, by choice. The teachers goal was to educate ppl on what the official teaching of the Catholic Church are. He would give a test on the first day of class about the offical teaching of the Church. Everyone fails it. Most ppl, including the priests in most parishes, are stuck in the pre Vatican II Catholic teachings. After learning the advanced Catholicism that theologists currently use, I am of the opinion that the Catholic Church is the most accepting, loving, and universal of all the religions out there. 99% of the time their views are misconstrued by priests and other Christian sects that preach intolerance. Catholicism is supremely tolerant of EVERYONE. They teach that Jesus offers EVERYONE forgiveness, regardless. Its doesn't matter if your gay, if you have sex before marraige, if your you don't believe in Jesus, or if your the most evil person on the planet....God offers unconditional forgiveness...you don't even have to ask for it. If you are a good person, you will be able to accept God's love, and achieve "heaven". If you are a bad person you wont be able to accept God love and thus "Hell". I really wish that more Catholics had the opportunity to learn about their religion on an advanced level. The problem is that most ppl are introduced to it as kids. They have their CCD classes, their churches, and their catholic gradeschool educations that present their religion on its most simple terms. God is a an old man with a big white beard that judges you constantly, heaven is a city in the clouds where you get to chill with all your dead family and friends, Hell is a cave underground with fire and a monster that tortures you for eternity. Its ridiculous. If you think that those are the tenants of Catholicism, you are mistaken. Catholicism was a much different religion 100 years ago, and its a shame that most people/priests are stuck in that era. Whatever... __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

04-09-2007, 08:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
v3d4 sky mind daughter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lartajuna Posts: 5,559 Thanks: 27 Thanked 120 Times in 64 Posts	im interested in the advanced catholocism that theologists use. what is it? link? __________________ remember our Governor Ken Gorman

04-10-2007, 10:29 PM	#28 (permalink)
v3d4 sky mind daughter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lartajuna Posts: 5,559 Thanks: 27 Thanked 120 Times in 64 Posts	well how can it be that the doctrines of the body of christ are so obscure and unknown and difficult to understand? Jesus is the way __________________ remember our Governor Ken Gorman Last edited by v3d4; 04-10-2007 at 10:32 PM.

04-10-2007, 10:48 PM	#29 (permalink)
DubStyle311 King of all Politics Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: living on the edge Posts: 7,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 53 Times in 47 Posts	How do you mean? They're relatively unknown because the Roman Catholic church has 1700 year history of being a very harsh, unchanging, dogma oriented religion. The changes made at Vatican I & II were revolutionary and not everyone agreed with them. Many priests still grew up and were trained in that style and are unable or unwilling or unaware of the current teachings. There is also a huge disconnect in the understanding of law between Italy and the United States that causes a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to some of the more controversial issues such as condom use. I will go into that particle issue in more detail if you guys would like. I'm not tryin to sound like an authority, and I may not be 100% right, but this is the stuff that I learned about Catholicism, and like I said, I dont think anyone else here has been exposed to it. The Catholic Church today is very different from the Church 100 years ago. __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

04-10-2007, 10:51 PM	#30 (permalink)
Waves YaHookan Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,471 Thanks: 33 Thanked 152 Times in 102 Posts	Wwjd?wwjt?wwjs? __________________ same as it ever was....same as it ever was...

04-10-2007, 10:54 PM	#31 (permalink)
moldyorangepeel Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 4,696 Thanks: 402 Thanked 72 Times in 32 Posts	The Catholic church is nothing like it used to be. Pope John Paul II sanctioned the acceptance of evolution as long as the idea stands that it is guided by God.

04-10-2007, 10:57 PM	#32 (permalink)
DubStyle311 King of all Politics Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: living on the edge Posts: 7,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 53 Times in 47 Posts	Exactly. Thats just one example of how Catholicism is changing with the times and attempting to become a more accepting and inclusive faith. __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

04-10-2007, 11:02 PM	#34 (permalink)
Waves YaHookan Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,471 Thanks: 33 Thanked 152 Times in 102 Posts	I think the main problem is people forgetting the actual teachings and latching onto subjective beliefs that make them feel good. This is inherent not in any religion but in humanity itself. We set up psychological barriers. In atheists this translates to them attacking others who they see as less educated. In catholics this means distorting the teachings of the bible. It is no longer WWJD but "What would I do?" The problem plagues humanity and i believe we will eventually evolve past it. We just need to come to an area of mutual acceptence, tolerance and understanding. __________________ same as it ever was....same as it ever was...

04-10-2007, 11:12 PM	#36 (permalink)
moldyorangepeel Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 4,696 Thanks: 402 Thanked 72 Times in 32 Posts	The confirmation seems like a formality. I'm sure you've heard about the Catholics who get confirmed and never go to church again, maybe when they get married or on Easter. The confirmation should be done at a much later age, I agree. Once you're no longer under such a stong influence of your parents. More like whenever you're actually ready for it. It is supposed to a rite you actually decide for yourself, but that's not really the case. If that's what it's intended to be then it should at least be done after 18. Last edited by moldyorangepeel; 04-10-2007 at 11:15 PM.

04-10-2007, 11:31 PM	#37 (permalink)
DubStyle311 King of all Politics Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: living on the edge Posts: 7,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 53 Times in 47 Posts	Here is what I was referring to when I was talking about the Church's stance on condoms and premarital sex: The traditions of law in the United States and in Italy are polar opposites. Historically, in the United States, people believe in legislating few laws but using strict enforcement. In Italy however, its the opposite. Many laws are put on the books but the enforcement of the laws is very lax. This divergence in the legal culture proves to be a very unfortunate conflict for the Catholic Church. As I'm sure some people are aware, The Curia (or the government of the Church) are all from Vatican in Italy. They generally are the people who come up with Church's stance on particular issues. So now, in the context of what I said before, you have Italian priests in the Curia coming up with many many rules and regulations and position that in an Italians priests mind, are going to be loosely enforced. These same rules (for lack of a better word) also apply to American Catholics. The priests in the US, in line with their own cultural understandings, take all these laws and enforce them very very strictly. I hope I'm explaining this well so far, as I really doubt anyone has heard this before. But in my classes, the professor showed us a video on this phenomenon. They had interviews with Italian and American priests on issues like condoms and pre-marital sex. The American priest was very harsh and judgmental. He were clear in their answers that Catholics should not be have any pre-marital sex or use condoms. To do so is a sin and by sinning you're offending God a risking going to hell. Essentially its the hard line stance that turns many people off to Catholicism. What the Italian priest said couldnt be more different. They described the Church's position on condoms and pre martial sex as "A beautiful ideal". To the Italians, these things are more guidelines than hard rules. He was fully aware that that in the current society, to expect people to not use condoms or have sex before marraige was unrealistic and in the case of condoms damaging. He also said that it is important that the Church on principal discourage people from doing such things. It was his opinion that the Ideal of not having sex before marraige was very important to Catholicism. Without such a wonderful ideal, what would people strive for. It's the model of what a loving sexual relationship SHOULD be, but realistically is not always going to happen. I really wish I could go back and watch it now so I could communicate it better but I hope you guys get the gist of it. A lot of the ridiculously strict American Catholic tradition is a result of this cultural disconnect. In America, if you dont go to church, you have sex before marraige, or use condoms you're berated or at least informed that your being a sinner by most priests. In the Italian and European Catholic tradition, as I'm sure some people are aware of or witnessed, you identify with being a Catholic and are accepted as a Catholic even though you don't necessarily follow every single excessive rule that the Curia has come up with over the years. It was things like this that have given me a very different view of Catholicism than most people. As a young person growing up, its pretty ridiculous to think just because I have sex out of marraige, use condoms, and dont go to church every weekend that I am a horrible sinner. I am sure that its stuff like that that makes other young people completely write of Catholicism as a religion one would want to be a part of. I really would like to hear what people think of all that and I wonder if anyone has ever heard that before or can understand what I'm tryin to get across? __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Last edited by DubStyle311; 04-10-2007 at 11:46 PM.

04-10-2007, 11:45 PM	#38 (permalink)
moldyorangepeel Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 4,696 Thanks: 402 Thanked 72 Times in 32 Posts	interesting... ty

04-11-2007, 12:39 AM	#40 (permalink)
moldyorangepeel Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 4,696 Thanks: 402 Thanked 72 Times in 32 Posts	religion isn't God, and it doesn't claim to be. "Scientific method" is more like the natural way. Last edited by moldyorangepeel; 04-11-2007 at 12:42 AM.