Has Christianity finally been debunked?

[badgoalie85]

people may spin things on all sides, matt, but there's NO denying that christians and many other people who are devout in their one particular faith are the greatest spinners.

an exchange i had with a particularly religious friend of mine sums it up best for me:

we were discussing religion and i told him about how i based my beliefs on reason and logic. i, on one hand, make observations about the world over the course of my life and form conclusions based on what i have observed. he, on the other hand, told me that he had developed his beliefs at a very young age (or rather his beliefs had been "given" to him by his religion) and it was up to him to form his conclusions about life based on those beliefs. the refusal to accept the possibility that previously reached conclusions could be wrong is a VERY dangerous thing and is what makes organized religion quite non-sensical to me.

it is for this reason that it is usually impossible to carry on a logical discussion about religion with someone of faith. proving the existence of some "first cause" is NO reason to accept hundreds of pages of doctrine in a 2000 year old book that has been edited beyond recognition.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by badgoalie85

the refusal to accept the possibility that previously reached conclusions could be wrong is a VERY dangerous thing.

Does this include your conclusions based on reason and logic?

[matthewmunari]

Originally Posted by badgoalie85

people may spin things on all sides, matt, but there's NO denying that christians and many other people who are devout in their one particular faith are the greatest spinners.

an exchange i had with a particularly religious friend of mine sums it up best for me:

we were discussing religion and i told him about how i based my beliefs on reason and logic. i, on one hand, make observations about the world over the course of my life and form conclusions based on what i have observed. he, on the other hand, told me that he had developed his beliefs at a very young age (or rather his beliefs had been "given" to him by his religion) and it was up to him to form his conclusions about life based on those beliefs. the refusal to accept the possibility that previously reached conclusions could be wrong is a VERY dangerous thing and is what makes organized religion quite non-sensical to me.

it is for this reason that it is usually impossible to carry on a logical discussion about religion with someone of faith. proving the existence of some "first cause" is NO reason to accept hundreds of pages of doctrine in a 2000 year old book that has been edited beyond recognition.

i agree with ,most of your statement...organize d religion is a very dangerous thing...but you have to realize that the bible must have some truth in it, even if it is 95 % false, (which i doubt) there still is an inkling of truth in the tome itself....so that gives credence to some of the biblical stories from samsson & delilah, to the woman who turned into a pillar of salt from looking back at the destruction of sodom,..maybe its all false, but I WANT TO BELIEVE...does that make me an idiot?? I have hope and faith in the human race, i know there are good ppl out here, and bad as well...i have also witnessed things with my own eyes that defy the laws of physics as we know...and we have no clue why we use such a small part of our brain to function in our everyday routines...if we live(our race) long enough, i think we'll figure it all out, but sadly, there are too many Sadaam, Osama, etc. types in this world for us to have a solid chance of living into the next millenium....an

[badgoalie85]

Originally Posted by JcP

Does this include your conclusions based on reason and logic?

yes it does in fact. if i have made a conclusion that is a logical progression from an observation i have made, then i will believe in it wholeheartedly. however, if i keep an open mind and make a new observation that contradicts that conclusion, i will try to adjust my beliefs accordingly. basing my beliefs on reason and logic means that i can change my mind about things. for christians (not all, but i'm making a generalization for convenience), any new discoveries or theories (i.e. those made by galileo or darwin) have no effect on beliefs because their beliefs have been predetermined by doctrine.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by badgoalie85

yes it does in fact. if i have made a conclusion that is a logical progression from an observation i have made, then i will believe in it wholeheartedly. however, if i keep an open mind and make a new observation that contradicts that conclusion, i will try to adjust my beliefs accordingly. basing my beliefs on reason and logic means that i can change my mind about things. for christians (not all, but i'm making a generalization for convenience), any new discoveries or theories (i.e. those made by galileo or darwin) have no effect on beliefs because their beliefs have been predetermined by doctrine.

that's awesome badgoalie. If you truly recognize that logic and your conclusions can be turned upside down just like "faith" I think you're a great example of open-mindedness.

[badgoalie85]

^thanks for the compliment. i like to think of myself as open-minded but i will admit that sometimes i have trouble with it. i can be pretty stubborn sometimes and it often takes someone to call me out and say "hey aren't you that guy who's always preaching open mindedness?" for me to accept the fact that even I can be wrong.

[JcP]

being aware of being stubborn is leaps and fuckin' BOUNDS further in the game than just being stubborn.

never wrong, only just as right as everyone else (unless they are unable to admit the same about you).

imo of course.

[spicoli]

"It is impossible to carry on a logical conversation about religion with a person of faith."

Badgoalie- do you see the conundrum here? i sure do. Being that you are the one in the conversation who does not understand faith.
Logic and Faith are not comparable, nor can you expect to put your logic into the subject of Faith, and have it make any sense at all.
And just the same, I cannot apply my Faith to your logic and have it make any sense at all. It is a futile battle.



edit: i used harsh words i didn't mean...so i took em out.

[badgoalie85]

Originally Posted by badgoalie85

It is usually impossible to carry on a logical conversation about religion with a person of faith.

Originally Posted by spicoli

It is a futile battle.

So...you're agreeing with me then?

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure whether your post had anything to do with mine.

Besides, I understand faith perfectly well. Faith, by definition, is a belief in something that can't be proven. That's fine, it's just not for me.

[spicoli]

^sorry, i missed a word. i don't know how to pick one line out of a post and quote it...

the definition of Faith does not do the belief any justice. the feeling it gives a person to have Faith in God is indescribable. at least, i can't describe it very well.
so i don't think you understand it 'perfectly' because you haven't experienced it.

[msicidron]

piece of shit article. typical atheist bullshit.

(i'm not religious)

spicoli, good point. i have tried to open my mind to "god" despite being raised an atheist, so my understanding and connection with the higher power is somewhere between what people of true "faith" feel, and what my reasoning allows me to feel. this doesnt mean i dont feel a full connection, and oneness with the creator.

i dont feel connectivity with god lies in religion, but within ones mind. religion, in my opinion, is more of a barrier between god and one's conciousness, and christianity is like a tollbooth. this is why i despise it.

[badgoalie85]

Originally Posted by msicidron

christianity is like a tollbooth.

very good analogy.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

its almost laughable that you think we're just an accident.....that man and woman were made to reproduce, we have dominion over all living things, and you say im illogical??

I didn't put forth any positive statements about our origins. I only put forth arguments which show that you're only being logical when you want to be in order to fit your faith-based view.

that's the beauty of america, free speech.......
i had a near death experience, 4 real..and there were 2people there to accompany me wherever i was going, when they realized that the dr,'s saved my life, they said i couldn't go with them yet...this is 100% true, now i'm not saying they were or were not angels, but
#1...i knew my hand was paralyzed before i woke up from the coma, as the "angels" fixed it

#2 i asked the dr.'s "why is my hand still paralyzed, i thought you gave me some sort of shot to fix it" they said "theres no such thing"

#3 i remember EVERYTHING while i was in a coma, but do not remember the first 2 or 3 days after i came out of it....

#4 how can you account these experiences, not just from me, but 1000's of other N.D.E.'s

I'm not denying that you had these experiences. What I will deny is that they explain anything about the reality in which I live.

believe what you may, he will forgive you(at least he says he will, as long as you accept him)

I feel like you're trying to make me feel bad for not believing what you believe.

#5) we have free will, its up to us to make our own choices, beliefs, etc. i personally believe there is something uncomprehendable to our minds, we've become too programmed in our lives to notice the little things, that's why children are often seeing "imaginary friends " or spirits that have remained earthbound for some reason

How does this incomprehensibility turn into comprehensibility and, thusly, your faith?

#6) we all die ..... for eons, people have lived and died...something had to have started the process even if we evolved from primordial soup

Using such language ("started the process") doesn't make logical sense.

#7) why would the bible even exist??? do people want to scare people into not commiting sins??? and no one is making money off the actua book itself, you can get 1 for free anywhere

Are you trying to scare me into believing what you believe, into not committing sins? Should I be scared?

i dont know why or how, but i do believe in my mom, she created me, shes dead now...but does that mean she was never alive???

I don't know what this means.

[spicoli]

i cannot speak for matthewmunari...
i don't think saying that God will forgive you if you accept him is a scare tactic.
i believe that, too. i think that people within organized religions get so damn over-zealous and start threatening people who don't share their enthusiasm, so to speak. namely, Christianity. those folks give us folks a bad name. and they've been giving us a bad name for thousands of years.
but sharing what we know to be unconditional love from God and acceptance, as long as you accept Him, isn't a scare tactic...it's a gift, imo. telling you you're gonna go to Hell, now that's a scare tactic, and a stupid one, at that. cuz nobody knows except God who's goin, and who's not.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by spicoli

i cannot speak for matthewmunari...
i don't think saying that God will forgive you if you accept him is a scare tactic.
i believe that, too. i think that people within organized religions get so damn over-zealous and start threatening people who don't share their enthusiasm, so to speak. namely, Christianity. those folks give us folks a bad name. and they've been giving us a bad name for thousands of years.
but sharing what we know to be unconditional love from God and acceptance, as long as you accept Him, isn't a scare tactic...it's a gift, imo. telling you you're gonna go to Hell, now that's a scare tactic, and a stupid one, at that. cuz nobody knows except God who's goin, and who's not.

I'm getting really confused. The first thing is, I don't know what you mean when you say "God." So, I don't know what you're receiving unconditional love and acceptance from.

The second thing is, isn't there some way to know who's going to hell? Don't you have a good idea? Isn't a belief in God a prerequisite? If you don't know whether it is, are you hedging your bet?

[spicoli]

^i do not assume to know if i or anybody else is going to Heaven. yeah...there are 'prerequisites' but how do i know if you won't find your way to Him on the way down?