Has Christianity finally been debunked?

[JcP]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

untill you have a personal n.d.e., which will modify your belief...your statement is true, for 99% of the worlds population.... but if you have an experience that shows you otherwise, i bet you will change your current beliefs..

Oh believe me, I believe in "God." I just recognize that even that belief is based on "not knowing."

I had a moment of clarity that modified my beliefs...I just have to remind myself that this is what is true for ME, and I would never suggest that what I experience or "know" necessarily means it's true for others.

hope that clears it up.

[guitarlegend]

I can only have 10000 characters so I placed <> where quote info is missing, please read the paper and compare to my thoughts afterwards. Sorry for the inconvenience.

“The fact is it's the Christians <> gays,pro-abortion evolution, gay marriage”

It is not fact that Christians are always doing this. This is a stereotype that has been perceived by our culture because of radical believers. In a philosophical discussion universal statements and radical assumptions are very dangerous and creates many holes in argument. As a Christian, I don’t believe in war against gay marriage, I love people and nobody is perfect. This is what Christianity discusses. For many others, and me Christianity believes that Jesus was the Son of God. He illustrated this both by teachings and behavior. Jesus wouldn’t agree with waging wars on gays, pro-abortion, those that believe in evolution etc. I’m a neuroscientist and it would be very ignorant of me to not believe in evolution. Nonetheless, many people stop to question: Is science and evolution a work of God? Why not? If you study the two they fit more than perfectly. You can argue rhetorical meanings interpreted by mankind that the world was made in seven days, but how long is this reference to a day? History buffs know that a day use to have many meanings, being many lengths of time. Why can’t one day be a million years? This sort of pickiness is rather narrow-minded because it’s not excepting other cultural views and contexts.

“I interpret that to mean that they think <>political candidates who don't conform to their agenda.”

More assumptions with this paragraph. Is this persons interpretation right? Who is this they? All of Christianity or just the sore thumbs that stick out? As a Christian I don’t want Christianity to control the government. Why? It is very clear in many religious doctrines that people are not perfect. This is a main point of the gospel. Thus, they will never be able to act perfect or create a perfect society . This said, we need everybody working together to create happiness for our earth time. If Christians ruled the government (and this is coming from a Christian) we would head straight to hell (this is pun intended, not to be taken literally for wise guys out there . This implies that I’m voting for McCain instead of Obama perhaps? Maybe I should call and revoke my donations then… apparently conservative republican is the only way Christians come. News to me.

“Christianity's roots <>acquire knowledge.”

Are we enlightened enough now to eradicate a belief in God? It’s rather boastful to assume that we are really “so much farther ahead”. If we are so intelligent as a race how come we can’t solve many of the problems the world faces today? To focus my argument for this bit I would like to address the issue of Science vs. God. A solid understanding of both suggests that the two can live simultaneously in the same world. I love science; it’s both hobby and profession. Nonetheless, I refuse to assume because we understand science better we should start disregarding God. If God is all powerful God would have thought of this before hand. I find it more logical that the creation of science was Gods way of creating things in a sensible way. Logical reasons for why things work the way they do seems like the way God would create things, instead of just random nonsense. Also, for the entire of fundamentalist out there, contact me for a more elaborate explanation of why evolution exists and my reasoning for God creating this concept. The world was not completely built in today’s perception of seven days. Period, end of story.

“To try to give the list the image <>Ten Commandments.”

The Ten Commandments is a work from the Old Testament. I keep hearing it thrown around and paired with Christianity. Although many parts of the bible are important, Christianity has one basic concept that sums up the entire gospel. God was saddened by the hate, anger, etc. taking place. Humans were abusing this gift of free will. Jesus Christ was sent and gave his life for our sins to create a bridge for us to get to have a relationship with God. Jesus pays the wrath of our sin so God can connect with us. I know for the atheists this is far’ fetched (I know, I was an atheist for eighteen years of my life!), but is it any more far’ fetched than saying science explains it all, when a bumble bee defies physics? Some fish swim faster than physics allows (based on muscle, density of water, etc.) Some paranormal activity can be explained by narrow thinking, but what about accounts that are unexplainable. You could suggest that we just haven’t learned enough about the world yet to explain these things, but then I could suggest that these things give us something to do during our time. Without thought, question, debate, mystery, etc. our life on earth would be boring wouldn’t it?


“Everything that we know about Jesus Christ is based strictly and entirely on hearsay.”

Everything we know is based on hearsay. Some hearsay is written down, so are the accounts of Jesus. There is more evidence that Jesus existed and performed these miracles as a work of God than there is for the existence of Julius Ceasar. I don’t think it’s appropriate to question one and not the other. I believe both existed and all I have is documented hearsay for both those believes. I also believe George Washington lived. The difference? Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and our savior, which scares people and creates more question for belief. Questioning is a great tactic that all should do, but it’s rather illogical how people will accept some things and not others when there is more “hearsay” if you will, about the latter.

“The first issue <>orbited the sun?”

This is simple. Why would that be important? If he was the Son of God I think there would be more important things to do than discuss science, this stuff could be figured out by mankind. Jesus had more important issues to discuss.

“Why didn't Jesus tell <> natural world.”

Again, if God was real and Jesus was the Son of God, these things wouldn’t be important at all. The human race lives within their own perspective so we place value on this type of information. I don’t see the importance in getting this information from Jesus when it can be learned on our own. If God is real (and for a few years now I believe God is real) and God came down and I got to choose “You want the inside scoop on how you were put here and what lies in eternity or you want the run down on AIDS and anorexia?” I would choose the latter. Asking for the latter would be comparative to a child dedicating their life to obtaining free candy bars. It could be good information, but is it the most important thing for discussion? The author continues on about Jesus not explaining science, but humans are dumb enough to figure science out (yes dumb enough, all humans can toot their horns, but for being considered the most accomplished organism on earth we are very stupid. This thought is relative to your frame of reference and idea of intelligence). Jesus came with a message that expanded farther than science, a different philosophical realm.

I’ll finish addressing each point and paragraph later, it’s getting very late for me. Before I end however, I would like to address a few different general arguments made throughout this paper. First, the time issue. Our time is created by us and relevant for us. To say God is judging at .57 seconds is ridiculous. God is not required to follow our patterns our use our concepts. If God is real, God created these concepts and to put it in lay mans terms, God probably has a few “cheat codes” for our little Sim City we live in.

Also, for believers and non-believers, it is strongly suggested that God chooses our judgment not humans. No Christian or non-Christian has the right to condemn anyone to heaven or hell. This is God’s job. There are outlines in the bible, but how do we know for sure we are interpreting these outlines correctly? With such diversity in culture and demograph it’s impossible to say that any single persons interpretation is truly correct, it’s all relative.

“One thing <> delusional then that's their prerogative.”

This (although I disagree) is what I agree with the author the most on. I say I disagree because I’m unsure of the author’s perception of propaganda and brainwashing. Nonetheless, I totally respect that there are many Christians that brainwash and use propaganda to “sell” Christianity. I believe in finding meaning yourself, but I also agree with elders giving guidance, it’s how we’ve evolved and gained knowledge. If everyone was given a fresh start on everything there would be no progress during or stay on earth. I also find it unsettling that the author has to use extremes and insults to get his/her opinion across. Such as “if they want to become delusional.” Is a different philosophical view delusional? The universal statements (so dangerous, please never use universal statements, always include exceptions and talk from more than just your view point, take other cultures and views into consideration. Research, research, research!)

I respect everybody’s views and I would never tell anybody they were going to hell. Whether you believe in God or not, I will consider what anyone else believes and any question they have towards my beliefs. I feel that this paper fails to do the same. Also, I love all people, yes all people. We all have faults and failures and it’s so easy to cover up our own messes by pointing at others. This mentality isn’t progressive.

[guitarlegend]

(Continued from last post) In the end, God is based on faith. I cannot “prove” Gods existence. It’s something that comes through the heart and cannot be explained. Debate is good and provides advancement, but it doesn’t always lead to an answer. This said, it’s very ignorant to believe somebody has proved God’s non-existence, believe it or not, this is a bigger leap of faith than believing in God. I could go on for hours, maybe it would be best to write a book, but for know I wish everyone a great day (atheists, jewish, hindu, Christians, etc.) and I hope this debunking of the debunking doesn’t convince you of my points, but teaches you to question what you are reading and research more before jumping on an attractive bandwagon. Spirituality can be found in groups, but it’s oneself that has to live with oneself so do your own research and find what makes you happy. I think Christianity can provide this, however, if you strongly disagree I wish the best of happiness in your belief. Goodnight.

(Apologizes for misspellings and bad grammar, need sleep

[snapshot]

This is still very confusing to me.

For one thing, it seems like, at its core, Christianity teaches you not to think but to feel--at least Christians do.

When I try to question Christianity, how am I supposed to do this productively? Am I not supposed to ask questions? Should these questions not be logical? If people are telling me things like:

Originally Posted by guitarlegend

In the end, God is based on faith. I cannot “prove” Gods existence. It’s something that comes through the heart and cannot be explained.

and

Originally Posted by DubStyle

[It's] much more difficult to defend Catholicism, or any religion for that matter, because at its very core it relies on faith. Faith is not evidence or logic. You cant really make a logical argument for Catholicism because its rooted in a deep faith. Just look at that link you posted. Debunking christianity? It cant be done.

then what is the point of questioning?

This is extremely confusing. It's like Christians are talking out of two sides of their mouth.

You either question it and realize it's wrong or you give up questioning altogether. Apparently, there is no questioning to find out that you're right because, logically, you can't come to any such conclusion. Yet, I'm being told

Originally Posted by guitarlegend

I hope this debunking of the debunking doesn’t convince you of my points, but teaches you to question what you are reading and research more before jumping on an attractive bandwagon.

To me, it seems Christians attempt to stack the decks in a manner that is favorable toward Christianity rather than being honest. I'm being told that I can use logic to favor the position of Christianity (by questioning), but once my questioning brings me (or the other person) to a place that proves the illogic of the Christian assertions being put forth, now I'm supposed to give up those logical questions which were once promoted and, instead, to simply rely on faith.

I won't accept anyone saying that faith has anything to do with questioning other than you have to give up questioning in order to have faith. I could prove the illogic of any definition "God" with no problem, but as soon as I do, it always comes back to faith. Having faith is fine, but attempting to say that thinking is any part of the process is, in my opinion at the moment, completely dishonest, since, by Christians' own admittance, you can't get their through thought but rather through feeling--ultimately faith. If God can't be explained rationally, then what is the point in questioning other than realizing you have to give up questioning?

The only thing I'm really looking for is consistency. I really have no problem with Christians saying that you have to give up thinking in order to have faith, and I have even less of "no problem" with Christians saying that one should give up their faith if it's illogical. My problem is saying that questioning and faith are somehow compatible. It truly seems you can't do both at the same time.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

im not saying your soul needs saving...but from what i've learned from my life experience, people will take advantage of a quick buck, or sell someone out for the worst possible reasons....i'm not saying your soul needs saving, biblical texts are saying this..and if you don't believe the bible, the point is moot...im not tryin to convince anyone of anything, trust me, i know that we are all smart enough to make our own decisions...but WHAT IF you appear before a supreme being, and during your life review, (if you have 1) you feel all the hurt you havecaused other ppl...this is all just hypothetical rhetoric, because until that day comes,no one will know 4 sure...but do hear me when I say this, doesn't it feel good to help the needy? Or, feed the homeless? I have done the previous on many occasions, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside my heart..knowing that I did somethin thst otherwise wouldnt have been done, had I not taken a measly sandwich to skid row, and put food in someones stomach feels damn good..im not trying to earn brownie pts, w. Jehova either, I just wanted some hungry ppl to eat...i've lived on both sides of the coin, and when your dow and out, feeling like killing yourself, a simple soda pop & a smoke from a complete stranger can pull you out of the morass of depression.I'm not referring to user/bots junkies/h addicts wholl suck the life out of you, im referring to an avg. guy, whos going thru a divorce, or facing prison time soon...people need to stop judging and look in the mirror next time you have somthingneg. to say....i honestly love every one on here, whether you believe it or not, or like it ot hot, and if any1 needs ti talk, p.m. me....im avail 24/7

I hope it brings you happiness. I really do.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

You either question it and realize it's wrong or you give up questioning altogether.

I'm not a christian, but I'll be happy to give you my answers to any question(s) you might have. Be aware: the more complex your question, the more complex the answer, so it might be a good idea (assuming you want to do this) to keep them simple.

questioning and faith are not incompatable. You just have to be comfortable with the concept that we can't know the answers yet.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by JcP

I'm not a christian, but I'll be happy to give you my answers to any question(s) you might have. Be aware: the more complex your question, the more complex the answer, so it might be a good idea (assuming you want to do this) to keep them simple.

questioning and faith are not incompatable. You just have to be comfortable with the concept that we can't know the answers yet.

How do you define God?

(edit: I am going to try to only ask questions.)

[JcP]

it changes as I grow and experience. At the moment, I define God as the creator of a universe of "something" as opposed to "nothing," personified or otherwise.

[guitarlegend]

When I try to question Christianity, how am I supposed to do this productively? Am I not supposed to ask questions? Should these questions not be logical? If people are telling me things like:andthen what is the point of questioning?

I'm going to try and answer your questions as unbiased as possible.

I spent a long bit of my life as a non-Christian. Actually, a dedicated atheist. My questioning brought me to Christianity. You mentioned that you don't think questioning and faith can go together. What confuses me is how come somebody can't use logical rational to base their faith of off? I'm a strong proponent of questioning everything. Here are some examples: Do you believe Micheal Jackson is a child molester? Did OJ Simpson commit murder? Would Charles Manson be safe in society? No matter how you answer these questions, they are based on faith. Also, not believing in God is based on faith. Nonetheless, these faiths and beliefs are in peoples lives because of questioning. This kind of relates to my Julius Caesar example and evidence for his existence.

There is a lot of philosophical argument on whether God exists or not... some believe God exists others think otherwise. After an extremely long time of questioning and researching the topic of spirituality, searching for arguments for and against Christianity, I came to the conclusion that it was a lot more logical to believe in God than not. However, we can run circles all day say yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes no... it was a leap of faith based on my research and questioning that brought me where I am now.

I can't stress enough how not believing in God is just as much faith if not more faith than believing in God. You cannot prove this, most arguments for a lack of God don't make much sense at all, but if it's somebody's belief O.K, I understand where these people are coming from. I read through many publications, such as scientific analysis of Christianity and it's lack of consistency. These arguments tend to twist ideas and concepts of Christianity and other religions to fit the belief at stake. Most take ideas out of context to fit how they would like.

I'm not saying that many Christians don't do this. Please realize that there is a big difference between Christians and Christianity. Again, people are not perfect and Christians tend to put off a lot of people with their scare tactics and extreme propaganda.

I would really like to understand more how being an atheist isn't a leap of faith. It's pretty faithful to think that the perfect oxygen/nitrogen ratios in the air, perfect distance from the sun, perfect tilt of the earth, the workings of math, physics, chemistry, the evolution of the human body from a microbe, are ALL random coincidences. I'm a neuroscientist (I'm not trying to throw this around I promise!) so for me one of the most appealing things is the circuitry of the brain, eye, the entire nervous system. All these things are so incredibly complex that the chance of them happening the way they did for us to have this discussion could be compared to winning the lottery billions of times consecutively by chance. If this isn't extreme faith I don't know what is. I'm not asking you to believe in Jesus, but I'm asking how you believing what you believe is more logical than my belief to the point that you think my belief is totally discreditable.

The funny thing I find about a lot of atheists is that they refuse to think there might be a different way or that they might be wrong. I have a conclusion based on my personal drive to seek knowledge. I would change my belief if I could be proved wrong or at least convinced that there is something more reasonable (I've done it before), but from my experiences there isn't. If you're convinced of your belief AWESOME, please help convince me, since I've become a Christian I've still sought out for a different answer but this is the most logical belief I've ran into so far.

[snapshot]

Why does the Universe need a creator?

[JcP]

because everything known has a creator, personified or otherwise. I have a mother and a father that made me. the planet was created by rock and gas, which in turn were created by other phenomena. Creator(s) create creations, which then become creators which create new creations.
Since the universe exists: Either the universe was created, or the universe has always been. If the universe was created, there must have been a creator (God) to do it. If the universe has always been, then the universe is the creator of all things (God).

[guitarlegend]

"I won't accept anyone saying that faith has anything to do with questioning other than you have to give up questioning in order to have faith."

If you "won't accept" then why question? If you're so settled on your decision why converse on these topics? I feel like saying an educated guess is undermining faith because I think in this situation it can be a very educated guess, but there is still that small percentage.

To not believe there might be fault in what you believe is stubborn and ignorant. Might as well return to the idea that the world is flat and man wont fly. I'm willing to change my belief, but I need to be convinced. It seems like you're simply shutting down and saying that your faith isn't faith and your right period. Your believe has room for error... you have faith.

[guitarlegend]

Originally Posted by JcP

because everything known has a creator, personified or otherwise. I have a mother and a father that made me. the planet was created by rock and gas, which in turn were created by other phenomena. Creator(s) create creations, which then become creators which create new creations.
Since the universe exists: Either the universe was created, or the universe has always been. If the universe was created, there must have been a creator (God) to do it. If the universe has always been, then the universe is the creator of all things (God).

I like this, this is a very solid way of wording things. I know we don't share the same faith, but this is a great way to put it into human perspective.

[snapshot]

Guitarlegend,

I'd just like to know what it is you're believing in. If you believe in that which you believe guided evolution on Earth, then what is that thing? That's fine to be incredulous about things that are trying to be explained through science, but then how is it easily to be credulous about things that have not at all been explained through science? What is your methodology for coming to the conclusion that the-thing-that-guided-evolution exists? Is it incredulity (part of your evidence appears to be that the chances of life evolving as such are enormously slim--unbelievably so, to you. Is that evidence of what you believe in)? Do you only use incredulity sparingly? If I applied the same methodology as you, would I come to the same conclusion?

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by JcP

because everything known has a creator, personified or otherwise. I have a mother and a father that made me. the planet was created by rock and gas, which in turn were created by other phenomena. Creator(s) create creations, which then become creators which create new creations.
Since the universe exists: Either the universe was created, or the universe has always been. If the universe was created, there must have been a creator (God) to do it. If the universe has always been, then the universe is the creator of all things (God).

So if I believe that I exist in the Universe, does that mean that I believe in God?