Has Christianity finally been debunked?

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

Also, if God created the Universe, what created God?

God is either infinite and created the universe out of nothing (God is external of the universe), or the universe is infinite and is itself God, as it has the ability to create something out of nothing (the universe created itself).

So what created God? Nothing, or God, depending on your FAITH.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

I would also have to believe that the Universe always existed, huh?

believing you exist in the universe has nothing to do with your beliefs about how that universe came to be.

If you believe the universe to be infinite, then you have to also believe that the universe has the ability to create consciousness (as consciousness is a product of the universe). If the universe created my consciousness, then the universe is my God (and by association, I myself am God, as everything that I am is infinite since I exist in an infinite system).

If you believe the universe to be something that has a starting point, then something was created out of nothing. And the ability to create something out of nothing is the very definition of a divine act. The creator of the universe is therefore my God.

You can believe anything you want. You can see this proof as illogical or irrelevant. But this is about whether or not asking questioning and faith are compatable. Which I believe we are proving to be completely.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by guitarlegend

I like this, this is a very solid way of wording things. I know we don't share the same faith, but this is a great way to put it into human perspective.

exactly. Faith is where people guess and think and believe. But the logic of HAVING a faith, to me, is obvious. What your faith is, however, is personal.

glad you dug my post. This was actually a really cool thing to do snapshot. You've given me an oppertunity to put into words things I've never really done before. thanks

[guitarlegend]

Originally Posted by snapshot

Guitarlegend,

I'd just like to know what it is you're believing in. If you believe in that which you believe guided evolution on Earth, then what is that thing? That's fine to be incredulous about things that are trying to be explained through science, but then how is it easily to be credulous about things that have not at all been explained through science? What is your methodology for coming to the conclusion that the-thing-that-guided-evolution exists? Is it incredulity (part of your evidence appears to be that the chances of life evolving as such are enormously slim--unbelievably so, to you. Is that evidence of what you believe in)? Do you only use incredulity sparingly? If I applied the same methodology as you, would I come to the same conclusion?

I believe that God guided the evolution of the earth. If you want to know more specifically, I believe in Jesus Christ. How was I being incredulous about things being explained through science? My methodology that guided me to believe God exists is a combination of nonreligious historical accounts and and the recorded accounts of Jesus. I didn't say the chances of evolving the way are unbelievably slim, however, I think it's slim without some sort of guidance. I believe in evolution. You probably wouldn't come to the same conclusion using my methodology unless your mind had the exact same information as mine and processed it the same. The scientific method can be applied to many different types of experiments and theories. These aren't the same theories and don't come to the same conclusions, but the same methodology is used.

What do you believe in? What is your biggest support for what you believe in and why is it superior(if not, why not)? What are you referring to when you say things that are trying to be explained through science? What do you believe creates good and bad in the world? Why is it not OK to rape or if it is, why? Is killing a rat for research OK? What about a human? Where do universal morals come from? What's out side the universe? What caused the evolution from the microbe to the human to work so perfectly? How come people isolated from different cultures have some concept of God (with the 1% of population being atheist being the exception)? What does life mean to you? Do you believe that your belief is faith-based? Of so why, if not, why not?

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by JcP

believing you exist in the universe has nothing to do with your beliefs about how that universe came to be.

If you believe the universe to be infinite, then you have to also believe that the universe has the ability to create consciousness (as consciousness is a product of the universe). If the universe created my consciousness, then the universe is my God (and by association, I myself am God, as everything that I am is infinite since I exist in an infinite system).

If you believe the universe to be something that has a starting point, then something was created out of nothing. And the ability to create something out of nothing is the very definition of a divine act. The creator of the universe is therefore my God.

You can believe anything you want. You can see this proof as illogical or irrelevant. But this is about whether or not asking questioning and faith are compatable. Which I believe we are proving to be completely.

Why does the Universe have to be created out of nothing? And if it was created out of nothing, aren't you implying that God is nothing if you say that something was created out of nothing?

[guitarlegend]

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

1. I don't know what planet you've been living on, but there's no question that Christians are the biggest railers against gays and the other things you quoted as well, at least in the United States anyway.

2. Then what are Christians implying when they continuosly remind us in the United States that this country was founded by Christians? Secondly, there's no question that Christians try to intimidate political candidates. I think you're clearly in denial.

3. The claims made about Jesus are too grandiose to be believed strictly on hearsay.

4. People either keep missing the point here or are deliberately misinterpreting it. The term "natural world" is an all encompassing term. The author only gives a couple of examples. But the point is why didn't Jesus know at least something about the natural world that ordinary people of his time didn't?

I'll address these one at a time. This will be relatively easy because I think you misinterpreted a few things and either didn't read or forgot a few things I said.

1. I agree that Christians are the biggest "railers" against gays etc., but saying it's fact that they are always" is wrong. This would be a universal statement which is almost always extremely dangerous to use in debate. Christians set a bad example for Christianity. Doctrine points this out, as nobody is perfect and neither are our churches. I believe in Jesus, but I'm heavily put off by organized religion. Most only support their cause and fail to live up to what Jesus stood for. There are no perfect Christians, this is important to understand. My biggest problem with the authors argument is he is approaching the behavior of Christians not Christianity.

2. I don't disagree that politicians get intimidated by Christians but again, is Jesus intimidating people? Politics wouldn't have mattered to Jesus, but SOME Christians misrepresent Christianity in there political action. Also, when you and the author use "most" or "all" or "always" I think you are only looking at the soar thumb that sticks out and then generalizing and assuming. Like, all black people are good at basketball... most black people cannot play at all and most of the ones in Africa haven't heard of such sport. However in your culture the media throws one thing in your face and it sticks out. I'm not in denial, it seems as if you've just seen the bad side of things.

3. I don't know where you were going with this. I'm guessing you were confusing the authors points and my points, or just didn't expand enough for me to understand your point, sorry. If you rephrase it I would love to address it.

4. What evidence supports that Jesus didn't know about the natural world? I addressed these issues in my writing, so you should refer back to my original post. Just because he didn't address certain issues doesn't mean he didn't know about them. His teachings were focused on things bigger than the shape of the earth (which the bible mentions is spherical by the way, the bible also mentions that light travels and this is while people believed it was fixed). But we'll pretend like I didn't say that because it might piss people off, knowing that the bible addressed some core scientific issues and all. Please refer back to the original post, I addressed this question.

[guitarlegend]

With all this debate I want to make it clear that I don't believe I am better than anyone here. I'm imperfect like everybody else and this is a core part of Christianity that a lot of Christians fail to express. It saddens me that Christians single out non-believers and compare them to Hitler. Christians are overly judgmental even when the bible says DO NOT JUDGE. The gospel of Jesus has a core belief that Jesus died for our sins and we are all sinful. Believing in Christ is the only criteria of Christianity. No works are necessary! Church on Sunday is not required, bible study-nope, abstinence- nope. So one might ask? I can become a Christian and kill people and get into heaven? From what I said the answer is yes, but this creates MASS confusion for some.

Although works are not REQUIRED only believing in Jesus, certain things come. When somebody truly believes in Christ they should typically strive to live Christ-like to set an example for others. It's an unexplainable feeling when Jesus becomes a part of your life, but you have this want, to help others and set an example. Yes, there are exceptions.

Paul in the bible killed Christians for a living before Christ came into his life. After he started believing in Christ he strived for nothing but the best for society.

This still is probably hard for non-christians to grasp and even christians. A good analogy for sin that some might have heard (although seeming over simplified and childish it shows what I'm discussing) goes as followed, "If we all stood in line and tried to jump to the moon, some of us would jump way higher than others. Some of us would jump so much higher it would inspire others to practice and refine their jumping skills. Still, when put in relation to the moon, the highest jumper doesn't matter. We need an external tool to get to the moon. For NASA it was a spaceship, for Christianity it's Jesus."

I hope this helps understand Christianity for some. It seems that most have this huge misconception based on other Christians trying to do what's right, but getting the message out the wrong way. I'm obviously doing the same, if not people would agree. This isn't the case though, I'm also imperfect. Nonetheless, I realize this comes with my belief system.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

Why does the Universe have to be created out of nothing? And if it was created out of nothing, aren't you implying that God is nothing if you say that something was created out of nothing?

the universe doesn't have to be created out of nothing. The universe very well might be infinite, as option 2 of my posts showcases.

Creating something out of nothing does not make a creator nothing, although since I do not know the nature of God, this very well might be true.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by guitarlegend

I believe that God guided the evolution of the earth. If you want to know more specifically, I believe in Jesus Christ. How was I being incredulous about things being explained through science?

You seemed to emit an air incredulity about the Universe being able to have evolved life the way it has without guidance. I took that as an argument from incredulity. You said, "I would really like to understand more how being an atheist isn't a leap of faith. It's pretty faithful to think that the perfect oxygen/nitrogen ratios in the air, perfect distance from the sun, perfect tilt of the earth, the workings of math, physics, chemistry, the evolution of the human body from a microbe, are ALL random coincidences."

If this isn't an argument for the existence of God at some level, I'll need an explanation as to why that is. I could just say, "That's the way the Universe is. If it wasn't that way, it would be different," and I wouldn't need to attempt to disprove the notion of a creator. What I feel this quotation from you boils down to is, "Why do we exist at all?" I don't see what difference it makes the way that we exist--chemistry, oxygen/nitrogen ratios, etc.--because who's to say another sort of existence wouldn't bring about a different sort of life. It always seems to boil down to the fact that we exist, which I don't think answers the question of whether there is a God. And I feel like you're stating, "How could there not be a God if we exist? Therefore, God exists"

My methodology that guided me to believe God exists is a combination of nonreligious historical accounts and and the recorded accounts of Jesus. I didn't say the chances of evolving the way are unbelievably slim, however, I think it's slim without some sort of guidance. I believe in evolution. You probably wouldn't come to the same conclusion using my methodology unless your mind had the exact same information as mine and processed it the same. The scientific method can be applied to many different types of experiments and theories. These aren't the same theories and don't come to the same conclusions, but the same methodology is used.

Are you at all opposed to the idea that Jesus broke the laws of physics? Is that a part of your belief? What is it within your methodology which would make such beliefs possible? What makes Jesus different from other people?

What do you believe in?

That we can only answer these questions through reasons and not through opinion or faith. Answering questions without reason may satisfy us emotionally, but our opinions, hopes, desires, and wishes have no bearing on what is true. I believe in truth and that we can only discover it by using reason.

[snapshot]

Originally Posted by JcP

the universe doesn't have to be created out of nothing. The universe very well might be infinite, as option 2 of my posts showcases.

Creating something out of nothing does not make a creator nothing, although since I do not know the nature of God, this very well might be true.

Do you believe an infinite regression is possible in terms of creation?

[matthewmunari]

anyways, it is an argument that cannot be won by either side, just opinons formed as a result of enough persuasive arguements....we'll never have the answer while we exist on this plane, / bodies, hearts, and souls....so it is just opening up a can of worms in which i'll see a red worm, and youll see a blue worm..the answer to God is the green worm (metaphorically)..we do not have the tools necessary to exist anyhere else but this planet, and pretty soon we are going to do what the Atlanteans did some unspecified time ago..Edgar Cayce was extremely gifted as a psychic. and low and behod he predicted we would find remnants of their lost civiization, the Bimini Rd...but doing underwater arechaeology is VERY difficult, and alot of the DNA has been washed clean....When we do finally reach the APEX of our scientific studies, and start doing things that are even more advanced than launching a shuttle into orbit, but when we branch out into planetary expedtions on Mars, and maybe Venus (well have to have the proper protectiont), then by that time other industries will have advanced along with the space program, and thats about the time we will be getting ID implants (so we wont have to carry awallet) money will al be electronic, as the actual trading physical paper for an item is archaic......thats just my take on the things to come....and realize this, as THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, THE CHANGES WILL BE SO GRADUAL AND SLOW PACED, THEY WONT CAUSE A VERYBIG DEAL......

i hope this is not the case, but its what i see and close my eyes and dream............spe aking of which, THATSHOW I KNOW MY INTERACTION W/ THE ANGEL WASNT A DREAM..i can differentiate the 2

[JcP]

Originally Posted by snapshot

Do you believe an infinite regression is possible in terms of creation?

Yes.

[guitarlegend]

Originally Posted by snapshot

I could just say, "That's the way the Universe is. If it wasn't that way, it would be different," and I wouldn't need to attempt to disprove the notion of a creator.

This is a narrowed way of looking at things, you're using the "Because I said so argument" I'm not sure of your background, I understand something (maybe a chain of events) led you to believe (Yes, it's a belief) that there is no God. You don't know, you think you do, but you don't. You have no idea and to say you do is arrogant. You have faith. I've stated before that I leave room for error and if disproved I'll change my belief system, but saying,"That's the way it is" isn't enough for me, it isn't enough for 99.99% of the world. WHY? I want to know why. What is the logic? Explain to me your theory behind the universe (from your logic though it wouldn't be a theory, it seems as if you have the answer but aren't providing it). There are many options and routes of choice in this world, with your belief being the minority you need to disprove the notion of a creator to credit your belief. If you can do this I will become an atheist again. I'm not understanding your reasoning at all and from your quoted statement, you don't have any. I'll repeat myself for the millionth time... I came to my belief through reason, through the pursuit of knowledge, time spent studying as many belief systems as I could. To not do this and not take the major population's opinion into account is a very uneducated way of thinking about things. The majority can be wrong, but you need to provide why. What I gather from your comments is that you really haven't spent much time at all learning about anything but your own beleif. You use stereotypes and hearsay and maybe a short reading here or there to defend your belief. When you bring your belief to the table for debate, you need to come prepared. Saying, "That's the way it is" is dangerous. All of the worst accounts of history came because there weren't enough people questioning. Yes, religion has accounted for many brutal deaths in history... In the middle east they aren't allowed to read their holy book or question, they can only learn what is spoon fed. Most of the time true doctrine isn't taught, it's skewed to benefit mankind, economy, and that's all the people know-this comes with the imperfections of humanity. Hitler did the same, stalin, etc. These rulers prevented people from questioning.

Originally Posted by snapshot

Are you at all opposed to the idea that Jesus broke the laws of physics? Is that a part of your belief? What is it within your methodology which would make such beliefs possible? What makes Jesus different from other people?

There are things today that defy physics. Look them up, research it, it's there. However, doctrine is always up for interpretation and a lot of Jesus miracles can be explained through physics- like the healers of todays world (yes there are people that heal, it's not instant, but they increase the rate of healing enough, where the standard error shows these statistics are relevant). There are many NASA associates researching this and other notable sources. So please tell me, why do these things defy physics? How do you explain the things in science that can't be explained? There are so many simple things that we just don't know or can't do. I'm not talking about complex concepts that take time and technology I'm talking about the concepts that scientists just say, "Sorry, this doesn't make sense- we can't find out why" Look them up, it's there.

Originally Posted by snapshot

That we can only answer these questions through reasons and not through opinion or faith. Answering questions without reason may satisfy us emotionally, but our opinions, hopes, desires, and wishes have no bearing on what is true. I believe in truth and that we can only discover it by using reason.

We both have reason, opinion, and faith. I'm not sure why you can't grasp this concept. You don't know everything there is to know about the universe, you only have a set of data that leads you to a point. What about the other data? What about the data that you don't have? are you assuming you have all the data? Explain the universe for me. How do you know the truth? How do you know your reason is correct? Do you know your reason is correct or is it just the best fit answer for you? Reason leads to latter, but your picking and choosing your reasoning so I'm not sure.

Would you except change? I'm trying to understand some things about your arguments, but you keep asking questions I've answered and running loops. If you want to be an atheist I hope it brings the best for you, but keep it to yourself if you wont except atheism as a faith and opinion. You're doing the same thing that the radical Fundamental Christians (and others) do, you're just not realizing it. You're refusing to be wrong- I want to know why you think I'm wrong- If you open up and realize you don't know everything this discussion would be less repetitive.

Atheism is a faith and opinion. It cannot be proved, only discussed. It is a belief believed in from those that were brought to believe in it through reason. So is every other spiritual/religious (there is a difference) group. I don't understand why you can't understand this. This is viewed as common knowledge in philosophy and science.

[matthewmunari]

i agree whole heartedly with g.l.'s msg, above, there are things that defy the laws of physics as they are layed in stone, i have personally witnessed (while not comatose) an object fly through the air with no reason for propulsion....there are many things in reality we assume we know, but in all truth, we know about 97% of the truth, the other 3% is unexplained phenomena.....and i do have witnessess, so i am not crazy...
p.s. why is magic johnson still alive???
he contracted a.i.d.s. in like '93 or so, i know he has the $$ for the best care possible, but it doesnt matter what you do to stall it. it eventually gets u in the end...y is he alive??