Has Christianity finally been debunked?

[citizen abuse]

In an attempt to stir the discussion back on subject, feel free to wheigh in on whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Jesus didn't even have the sense to tell his followers to go teach his message to the thousands of people inhabiting the land masses on the other side of the planet. Imagine that! I guess he just figured that he'd hop on a camel and ride over there and tell them in person, huh?

[clive]

yeah because i'm sure you'd be better at the job if you had the chance, you're obviously just baiting for a reaction. take your monthly subcription religion elsewhere.

[ziplock]

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

In an attempt to stir the discussion back on subject, feel free to wheigh in on whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Jesus didn't even have the sense to tell his followers to go teach his message to the thousands of people inhabiting the land masses on the other side of the planet. Imagine that! I guess he just figured that he'd hop on a camel and ride over there and tell them in person, huh?

I will make my simple expression of opinion as simple as possible. So, simple for the simple via simplicity...

People are fucking stupid.

Deepest apologies, but it is simply something that at times needs expressing. It is basically a vent for my frustrations, a manifestation which due to our particular perspective on perfect propagation (read: life) helps me "separate" this "frustrated" state from my "self" leaving me "free" to respond in another manner. With that in mind...

People are fucking stupid.

Jesus. Again, another mindfuck of a word that refers to the person/concept of a "prophet" of 2 millenniums ago. Regardless of his grounding in physical reality, that is his person, the stories of his person, if he did what they say he did, etc, he is simply yet another great teacher in our LONG LONG history of great teachers. I came into this world with no knowledge of these people. How in God's holy name am I supposed to assume the position of sheer arrogance that would allow for me to deem any one of these INCREDIBLE people the "sole" teacher. I would rather look at God's creation (existence) with my OWN eyes than to think any particular one of these many "got it right" and place my trust and faith into a burrowed pair.

I see the separation of the masses from the select few as a blatant, pathetic facade orchestrated in an effort to mesmerize the masses and render them "controllable." Why would God send me just one single prophet when every single moment of every single day I am immersed to the very core with his creation. I AM his creation. Why then this one particular avenue? I call bullshit.

Now, back on topic... Snapshot can echo out the eternity of this but when it comes to argumentation I am an adherent to reason and logic. The reasoning outlined within this topic is NOT compelling. It does not carry the weight and momentum necessary to knock down the tower that is Christianity. Sure, by another standard, it would have such weight and momentum. I however have taken the time to attempt and understand Christianity and all of the other schools of thought this world has to offer. I have then come to regard them in a fashion according to my accumulated knowledge. And with this knowledge in my left hand I cannot open my right to accept your reason. It is simply too light to balance the weight of my left.

Given the motivation I could put forth a much more damning argument with more solid reasoning from MANY angles than what has been presented here. This isn't from a ground of vanity, or arrogance that I say this. It's from a ground of tragic fucking disappointment. I am disappointed in the effort that is put into such an important part of one's life. It reflects such an unimmersed way of life, so void of the content that's there to be experienced. However, more importantly, the nature my perspective of this phenomenon (and thus the frustration and disappointment) is a much more pressing problem than launching an attempt to "debunk" Christianity.

[JcP]

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

In an attempt to stir the discussion back on subject, feel free to wheigh in on whether you agree or disagree with the following statement:

Jesus didn't even have the sense to tell his followers to go teach his message to the thousands of people inhabiting the land masses on the other side of the planet. Imagine that! I guess he just figured that he'd hop on a camel and ride over there and tell them in person, huh?

this was already discussed and explained in depth. Christianity spread to the new world on the very first ships that crossed the Atlantic. The message of Jesus has touched every single country on this planet and Catholicism/christianity is by far the most prolific religious faith in both north and south america.
To suggest that because America is not referenced in texts we have concerning Jesus equates to some sort of proof he wasn't a prophet is a completely erroneous argument.

1) what was written is not the entire story. You have no way of knowing whether he did or did not tell one or all of his disciples about "the new world." If you want to use the bible as fact, then do so. If you want to disregard it, then do so. But to disregard it and then to turn around and use it as a way of disproving something doesn't work.
2) Using the argument about the other continents is irrelevant, as his message spread organically (and, might I add, forcefully) to the other land masses. If Christianity did not spread, then this argument would have some sort of merit.
3) Why would it have mattered? Europe wouldn't have the means of travelling to the Americas en masse for over a thousand years. If Aliens land in the year 3000, would you use this as a way of suggesting Jesus wasn't a prophet as well? Shouldn't Jesus have said, "when the aliens land, make sure to tell them about me?"

In essence, if you believe Jesus was able to predict the future (by predicting Peter's denials and Judas' bretrayal, as well as his own crucifixion), then you must believe in some sort of predeterminism. Therefore, Jesus knew his message would spread without mentioning it.

I'm repeating an explaination already made clear to you by a couple people in this thread. Please engage in listening as opposed to claiming people who point out your inconsistencies are Jesus freaks or Christians. It would make this a far more interesting discussion.

[kamikazi89]

[Parallax]

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
During the year, he and the elves build toys.
Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
He puts the sack in his sleigh.
He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
He leaves toys for the children of the household.
He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
He does this all around the world in one night.
Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.
This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.
But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is a delusion. The way that you would try to do that is by asking me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.
These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.
Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm your assessment. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Now let me show you another example...


Another Example

Imagine that I tell you the following story:

I was in my room one night.
Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
He tells me an amazing story.
He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.
Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds nutty, doesn't it?
You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

[citizen abuse]

Originally Posted by clive

yeah because i'm sure you'd be better at the job if you had the chance, you're obviously just baiting for a reaction. take your monthly subcription religion elsewhere.

You don't tell me what to do.

[citizen abuse]

Originally Posted by Parallax

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

It's always refreshing to listen to someone with a rational mind. Thanks for sharing your input with us.

[verklingen]

it was just a suggestion. your actions in this thread are loathsome. i'll be sure to reiterate this post when in one month's time you again bait with your single contradictive point which has already been handily resolved.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

It's always refreshing to listen to someone with a rational mind. Thanks for sharing your input with us.

What you seem to fail to grasp is it takes just as much faith to say there is no god as it takes to believe in one.

[verklingen]

omg, clarity!

[kamikazi89]

What you seem to fail to grasp is it takes just as much faith to say there is no TOYOTA as it takes to believe in one.

i believe in toyota, with all my heart

[verklingen]

Originally Posted by kami

i believe in toyota, with all my heart

you also see evidence of it while not seeing evidence of its non-existence. faith belongs elsewhere imo, for clarity's sake.

[kamikazi89]

actually, i had no idea toyota was a city in japan untill i checked..but it doesn't surprise me

[Parallax]

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

It's always refreshing to listen to someone with a rational mind. Thanks for sharing your input with us.

are you being sarcastic?

what isnt rational?

please be specific.

[WHEREAMI?]

Zeitgeist - The Movie

This movie answered a lot for me and also validated much i have learned on my own about the truth of Christianity. Watch it and decide for yourself.