Has Christianity finally been debunked? - Page 9

citizen abuse · 05-07-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

Fact: Over 200,000 people were killed by the sunami of 2004 and then sent on to hell.

Wow, you claim to be athiest, but you believe in hell...

HOW COULD INNOCENT LIVES THAT WERE TRAGICALLY DROWNED END UP IN HELL???????????

You must not've read the essay that this thread directed people to:

Body

If you had you would've seen that I was referring to a point made in the piece that said "if what the Christians believe is true" those people would've been sent to hell.

JcP · 05-07-2008, 09:01 AM

Up front: I do not believe in the Christian God as said in the Bible. I do not believe in Jesus being the one and only son of God as said in the Bible.

I do not identify as a Christian.

[quote=citizen abuse;51578388]OK, let's summarize what's been discussed so far. Up to now, no one has been able to dispute any of the following key points mentioned in the piece:

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: Everything we know about Jesus is hearsay!

Do you consider what we know about a lot of Egyptian kings hearsay? Do you consider what we know about any historical figure who's body is not found hearsay?

I happen to agree that most of what we "know" about Jesus is more legend and myth than actual truth, but that's belief not fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: Jesus didn't exhibit any knowledge of the natural world!

Well that's a silly comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: Outside of his inner circle, practically no one else who came in contact with him believed Jesus was the son of God. And to this day, Hindis, Muslims and Budhists still don't believe Jesus was the son of God.!

First of all, there are numerous accounts of people "outside" of his inner circle believing Jesus. If you need a list, I'll be happy to provide some, but before you ask and make a fool of yourself, I suggest doing a little research.

Buddhism is not a theistic religion. I know plenty of Buddhists who believe Jesus was the son of God. Buddhism is about personal enlightenment and "Buddha nature." Jesus is a representation of the Buddha nature, in fact. In effect, Buddhists would (using your terminology) argue that we are all the son(s) of God, including Jesus...Jesus just happens to be one of the few who realize it.

As for Islam and Hinduism and all the other religions...so? That's why there are lots of religious traditions...not everyone agrees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: The Christian god would have to cast judgment on people at the rate of almost two people per second!

So? God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-omnipotent. One second to us is literally infinite infinities of infinity to God, assuming God exists. Your argument here is easily contradicted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: The Christian god cannot make himself visible in the here and now, in realtime, for everyone's eyes to see
!

Says who?

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: The only evidence for the Christian god is supposedly some people who thousands of years ago supposedly heard a voice.!

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: People who came in contact with Jesus weren't overwhelmed with awe.
!

Besides being untrue,

so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: Over 200,000 people were killed by the sunami of 2004 and then sent on to hell.!

I know what you're quoting, but this belief is held by a very specific sect of the christian faith. That's like saying "over 200,000 people were killed by the sunami of 2004, and all Americans thought they deserved it" because of a few people in America who do think that.

Silly argument against faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Have the detractors finally realized the futility of their efforts and finally decided to throw in the towel? Looks like there's only one thing left for you to do - come over to the Atheist side!

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Atheism is not the flipside of religion. Atheism is the flipside of spirituality. Religion is a way of expressing spirituality through ritual and companionship (congregation in christianity, coven in wicca, sangha in buddhism, etc.) .

Christianity is a religion. But one can be "non-religious" and still be EXTREMELY spiritual.

I find the arguments of Atheism to be astoundingly short-sighted. So bringing up atheism as the only recourse should Christianity be "debunked" shows a complete lack of understanding of the actual issues regarding spirituality and belief.

kamikazi89 · 05-07-2008, 09:33 AM

^^ you seem a little confused over the difference between fact and opinion
also, with regards to egyptian kings there were contmpory historians as well as huge monuments(pyramids anybody) that attest to the fact they actually existed

JcP · 05-07-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamikazi89

^^ you seem a little confused over the difference between fact and opinion
also, with regards to egyptian kings there were contmpory historians as well as huge monuments(pyramids anybody) that attest to the fact they actually existed

I'm quite clear on the difference between fact and opinion.

I'm not debating the existence of the pyramid kings. There are many dynasties throughout egyptian history that did not build monuments. In fact, an overwhelming majority of kings were buried in the valley of the kings...a significant portion of which have never been found.

My point which seems to have been lost on you, however, was pointing out that "hearsay" is a very mutable term. Without solid proof (IE: a body), any person in history before the advent of the moving picture can only be proven to have existed by "hearsay."

**v3d4** · 05-07-2008, 11:45 AM

wait a minute now

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Fact: Everything we know about Jesus is hearsay!

if this is true then all the other claims made about Jesus are hearsay
sort of a self-defeating argument

citizen abuse · 05-07-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

^ you do not seem keen on discussion, your effort in this thread is a waste.

Maybe a waste to you but there's nothing that you're ever going to say that's going to stand in my way.

I thought I already adequately mixed it up with you but apparently not. OK. If you think you can dispute any of the facts I listed go ahead. Take your best shot. I'd love to see you try. It would be about as much fun as watching someone try to dispute that the sky is blue.

citizen abuse · 05-07-2008, 11:55 AM

[quote=JcP;51579028]Up front: I do not believe in the Christian God as said in the Bible. I do not believe in Jesus being the one and only son of God as said in the Bible.

I do not identify as a Christian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

OK, let's summarize what's been discussed so far. Up to now, no one has been able to dispute any of the following key points mentioned in the piece:

Do you consider what we know about a lot of Egyptian kings hearsay? Do you consider what we know about any historical figure who's body is not found hearsay?

I happen to agree that most of what we "know" about Jesus is more legend and myth than actual truth, but that's belief not fact.

Well that's a silly comment.

First of all, there are numerous accounts of people "outside" of his inner circle believing Jesus. If you need a list, I'll be happy to provide some, but before you ask and make a fool of yourself, I suggest doing a little research.

Buddhism is not a theistic religion. I know plenty of Buddhists who believe Jesus was the son of God. Buddhism is about personal enlightenment and "Buddha nature." Jesus is a representation of the Buddha nature, in fact. In effect, Buddhists would (using your terminology) argue that we are all the son(s) of God, including Jesus...Jesus just happens to be one of the few who realize it.

As for Islam and Hinduism and all the other religions...so? That's why there are lots of religious traditions...not everyone agrees.

So? God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-omnipotent. One second to us is literally infinite infinities of infinity to God, assuming God exists. Your argument here is easily contradicted.

Says who?

So?

Besides being untrue,

so?

I know what you're quoting, but this belief is held by a very specific sect of the christian faith. That's like saying "over 200,000 people were killed by the sunami of 2004, and all Americans thought they deserved it" because of a few people in America who do think that.

Silly argument against faith.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Atheism is not the flipside of religion. Atheism is the flipside of spirituality. Religion is a way of expressing spirituality through ritual and companionship (congregation in christianity, coven in wicca, sangha in buddhism, etc.) .

Christianity is a religion. But one can be "non-religious" and still be EXTREMELY spiritual.

I find the arguments of Atheism to be astoundingly short-sighted. So bringing up atheism as the only recourse should Christianity be "debunked" shows a complete lack of understanding of the actual issues regarding spirituality and belief.

Even though I feel that this response is not worthy of a response from me, as soon as time permits I'll demonstrate just how unworthy it is.

verklingen · 05-07-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Maybe a waste to you but there's nothing that you're ever going to say that's going to stand in my way.

I thought I already adequately mixed it up with you but apparently not. OK. If you think you can dispute any of the facts I listed go ahead. Take your best shot. I'd love to see you try. It would be about as much fun as watching someone try to dispute that the sky is blue.

i think your points have been dealt with adequately.

my point in saying what i said is that you seem like you just want to prove people wrong using your own conception of their belief rather than actually discussing these topics. we're intelligent and like to talk things out here for the sake of clarity and personal growth. you just want to talk about you and why you think you're right. not even you really. . . just an article written by someone you agree with.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizen abuse

Even though I feel that this response is not worthy of a response from me, as soon as time permits I'll demonstrate just how unworthy it is.

case in point. . .

kamikazi89 · 05-07-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

I'm quite clear on the difference between fact and opinion.

I'm not debating the existence of the pyramid kings. There are many dynasties throughout egyptian history that did not build monuments. In fact, an overwhelming majority of kings were buried in the valley of the kings...a significant portion of which have never been found.

My point which seems to have been lost on you, however, was pointing out that "hearsay" is a very mutable term. Without solid proof (IE: a body), any person in history before the advent of the moving picture can only be proven to have existed by "hearsay."

interesting concept, but i'm sure ot's not logical(before the advent of moving pictures, c'mon..that's just being silly..

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

I happen to agree that most of what we "know" about Jesus is more legend and myth than actual truth, but that's belief not fact.

that's what i was referring to specifically(i didn't read any posts before that)

kamikazi89 · 05-07-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewmunari

Fact: Over 200,000 people were killed by the sunami of 2004 and then sent on to hell.

Wow, you claim to be athiest, but you believe in hell...

HOW COULD INNOCENT LIVES THAT WERE TRAGICALLY DROWNED END UP IN HELL???????????

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. {17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. {18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

verklingen · 05-07-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamikazi89

{18} He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

this is an interesting quote. the meaning i derive from it is a bit unconventional, but hey that's me.

i take the term "believe on/in" to mean something along the lines of "understand and apply" in regard to jesus' doctrine. i see a lot of confusion between jesus and his message on the part of those who wrote the new testament, but it's easy to impersonalize the lines and make sense of them beyond glorifying jesus' person.

doing so to this quote, we come up with something like this:

"He that understands and applies the teachings of jesus is not condemned: but he that understands not is condemned already, because he cannot apply them."

rather than some impending punishment for unbelief, condemnation simply means living the life we already live. . . a constant pursuit of survival. jesus outlined a way for us to live beyond this pursuit, a pursuit which of necessity engenders worry and doubt: inescapable qualities of a life of survival which (arguably) make existence practically unbearable for even the most proficient survivors.

it's all about making life better for us all. not through his person, but through his message.

kamikazi89 · 05-07-2008, 01:30 PM

that's fairly benign..and of course it is possible to lead a fufilling life without jesus, or by other means..

verklingen · 05-07-2008, 01:32 PM

^ most definitely. anyone who says otherwise is a fool, and in all likelihood doesn't lead a fulfilling life himself.

citizen abuse · 05-07-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

i think your points have been dealt with adequately.

my point in saying what i said is that you seem like you just want to prove people wrong using your own conception of their belief rather than actually discussing these topics. we're intelligent and like to talk things out here for the sake of clarity and personal growth. you just want to talk about you and why you think you're right. not even you really. . . just an article written by someone you agree with.

edit:

case in point. . .

I've been more than accommodating with regards to debating the essay. I think what the probelm is is that you can't shake my confidence in the essay I directed people to. And you won't. All that body of work does is make the very valid. very rational point that if the Christian god and his son were who the Christians say they were there would be certain things that people should expect to observe when looking back in time. And those things just simply are not there. You will never shake my belief that that is a very valid. very rational point to make.

05-07-2008, 01:32 PM	#173 (permalink)
verklingen what is Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the foundation of heaven on earth Posts: 5,436 Thanks: 153 Thanked 424 Times in 242 Posts	^ most definitely. anyone who says otherwise is a fool, and in all likelihood doesn't lead a fulfilling life himself. __________________ you can't explain the rules of tennis to a dog, but he runs after it and plays with it...like the dog playing with the ball, we don't have the necessary tools needed to interpret the afterlife..until we get there, then a whole new universe is given to us. Perhaps 200 billion light years away, there's the next phase of our existance..Remember you cannot destroy energy, which is all we are... -matthew munari rip matt