let us discuss christianity - Page 4

verklingen · 10-19-2009, 12:56 PM

all too often, we choose suffering

№1 · 10-19-2009, 12:58 PM

Far too often, I think we choose ignorance...

BibleGuy · 10-19-2009, 01:06 PM

No1: "Would a benevalent lord let his most precious creation, children, suffer and die?"

Difficult to answer, but here's an example to chew on:

A benevolent Lord creates children and says to them, regarding their path, "If you stay to the right you will have life, love and abundance, but if you go to the left you will find death, hate and suffering. I love you, so I'm advising you: stay to the right."

He respects them as intelligent children and gives them freedom to choose. They choose to go left.

Who is at fault?

Btw... I don't think anything in here is an attempt to convert anyone to anything. Its a spiritual discussion from multiple perspectives that gives us all food for thought. So please, jump in and swim with us if you like. The water's warm.

**SageTree** · 10-19-2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by №1

I didn't read all this, its the same old rehash...

Answer me this and maybe I'll see, otherwise, you can keep your corruption and evil that is religion.

Would a benevalent lord let his most precious creation, children, suffer and die?

Why?

Is it possible that God, itself suffers and dies as well? The earth and stars all go away and become something new in death, why would god be different. You can't create something better than you know about, can you?

№1 · 10-19-2009, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

No1: "Would a benevalent lord let his most precious creation, children, suffer and die?"

Difficult to answer, but here's an example to chew on:

A benevolent Lord creates children and says to them, regarding their path, "If you stay to the right you will have life, love and abundance, but if you go to the left you will find death, hate and suffering. I love you, so I'm advising you: stay to the right."

He respects them as intelligent children and gives them freedom to choose. They choose to go left.

Who is at fault?

Btw... I don't think anything in here is an attempt to convert anyone to anything. Its a spiritual discussion from multiple perspectives that gives us all food for thought. So please, jump in and swim with us if you like. The water's warm.

I'm not looking to convert anyone either...

Check out a ward full of terminally ill children, did they have a choice to go left or right?

Born with genetic defects and incurable illness, these children had a choice of how to come into this world?

These precious children had a choice to suffer on this plane?

I kept getting thrown out of Sunday school because I repeatedly did the ONE unforgivable thing in the eyes of the church.

Asked questions...

verklingen · 10-19-2009, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by №1

Check out a ward full of terminally ill children, did they have a choice to go left or right?

Born with genetic defects and incurable illness, these children had a choice of how to come into this world?

These precious children had a choice to suffer on this plane?

this is a touchy issue but i believe they did have a choice, and i feel the choice was made out of love. the suffering these children endure breeds a great deal compassion among their families, friends and those who treat/care for them. many are reminded just what there is about life to be cherished. it's an impact that couldn't be made in health which many of us so sorely need, providing perspective on many of the things we take for granted out of habit or comfort.

whether this is true or not, the effect is indisputable. i feel the same for victims of accidents or natural disasters. things like this help ensure we don't lose sight of our humanity, and it's an invaluable service

**v3d4** · 10-19-2009, 02:00 PM

when fools ask foolish questions, they are never satisfied with any answer

edit: so thats not a sign of growth

yo. · 10-19-2009, 02:03 PM

Verk,

"Re: Being aware of "God"
"we are giant, hairless, and far more intelligent species of monkeys, today."

True only if you believe in the theory of evolution. Maybe "God" started with an amoeba and then created upgraded, more advanced beings, in succession culminating in Humans. ?"

^That's what I would interpret if I believed in all that, created in his image.

№1 · 10-19-2009, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by v3d4

when fools ask foolish questions, they are never satisfied with any answer

edit: so thats not a sign of growth

I'd be satisfied with an answer, one other than 'because thats the way it is'.

I can't seem to make that leap of faith my dear, with no assurance that anything I choose is the correct decision.

Just show me some proof, irrefutable proof, and I'll be on it like stink on shit.

I'm not a faithless man mind you, not by any means, however I choose to put my faith into those who share this level plane with me as this is our here and our now. Right here, right now. It sure would be nice if there is something else after, however I'm not banking on it.

hijabihippie · 10-20-2009, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by verklingen

this is a touchy issue but i believe they did have a choice, and i feel the choice was made out of love. the suffering these children endure breeds a great deal compassion among their families, friends and those who treat/care for them. many are reminded just what there is about life to be cherished. it's an impact that couldn't be made in health which many of us so sorely need, providing perspective on many of the things we take for granted out of habit or comfort.

whether this is true or not, the effect is indisputable. i feel the same for victims of accidents or natural disasters. things like this help ensure we don't lose sight of our humanity, and it's an invaluable service

Yes, Verk, that does happen and unfortunately, at the same time, it is a fact that disabled children, particularly kids with developmental disabilities/mental retardation are the most often abused by their caregivers. The resources and respect these folks need simply isn't there for them sometimes.

BibleGuy · 10-20-2009, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by SageTree

Is it possible that God, itself suffers and dies as well? The earth and stars all go away and become something new in death, why would god be different. You can't create something better than you know about, can you?

Interesting point, Sage. Everything runs in cycles doesn't it? The seasons: Spring (new life), Summer (Growth and fruit), Autumn (change/transition), Winter (death/sleep) followed by rebirth in Spring.

BibleGuy · 10-20-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by №1

I'm not looking to convert anyone either...

Check out a ward full of terminally ill children, did they have a choice to go left or right?

Born with genetic defects and incurable illness, these children had a choice of how to come into this world?

These precious children had a choice to suffer on this plane?

I kept getting thrown out of Sunday school because I repeatedly did the ONE unforgivable thing in the eyes of the church.

Asked questions...

Conversion:
I didn't think you were, No1. My concern was that you might think that I or someone else may be pushing our particular religion on you.

Suffering children:
That's a complicated one, for sure. And there are some good replies in here to chew on. There are a couple of other things to consider as well.

#1 - Much of the suffering that takes place is inflicted by man. "Experts" who deny real medicine like free Cannabis (and other herbs), for everything from headache to Multiple Schlorosis and Muscular Dystrophy, in favor of profitable pharmaceuticals (which the Bible refers to as "sorcery", btw). This is an intolerable CRIME against humanity by money-driven tyrrants. Suppression of any/all herbal medicine as "folklore" is in the same category. Anyone can grow herbs. If the general public really knew how to use them medicinally the pharma industry would be out of business and we would all be healthier and wealthier (without greed). But shaman are "witch-doctors" and herbalists are non-FDA-approved nutjobs according to the experts whom our culture subjects its suffering children to.

#2 - There may be a remaining genetic corruption from ancient gene pool pollution. The precursor to the biblical flood was the impact of a group of "the sons of God" mating with "the daughters of men", producing a violent hybrid race called the Nephilim (or Nephiyl) who apparently threatened the existence of both man and beast. However it actually happened, the essense of the story is that someone screwed with the original genetic makeup of mankind. I've often wondered if today's genetic defects are remnants of this pollution.

*** There are accounts of The Flood from multiple traditions around the world. Does anyone here know of a "Nephilim" story from non-biblical accounts?

Asking questions:
BRAVO!!! You go right on asking questions. I too was dismissed for questioning and expressing a different opinion on certain doctrines. Dogma is "the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from." So... we can submit like sheep and simply believe everything we're told by the Church, or we can believe what the scriptures actually say:

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)

He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good. (Proverbs 19:8)

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1John 2:20)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him (autos: he; she; him; her; it, the same). (1John 2:27)

Questions are the way to answers that give us something to chew on... but real teaching comes from within and that's the purpose of the anointing/unction, imo.

Sage, do you have any Buddhist equivalents? Anyone else?

**SageTree** · 10-20-2009, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Interesting point, Sage. Everything runs in cycles doesn't it? The seasons: Spring (new life), Summer (Growth and fruit), Autumn (change/transition), Winter (death/sleep) followed by rebirth in Spring.

It's not a holy shape for nothin'. And I don't mean make a pun on, wholly, either, but it takes that full revolution for all things to happen in their time. Shown so extensively on the climate of the days we experience now. However, I suppose we are on a bigger wheel than we can ever know sometimes. Just because we are our own proverbial comet, doesn't make it more absurd, to me, what is happening with many aspects of perceived solid structures. This doesn't make me apathetic and not compassionate, it just helps me frame it.

**SageTree** · 10-20-2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by №1

I can't seem to make that leap of faith my dear, with no assurance that anything I choose is the correct decision.

What does give you assurance what you are choosing is correct in the first place, religious, political, body, mind, nourishment? Honestly. I don't mean this with ill intent. I think it's good to talk about what reaffirms you.

I think you were on to something using the word present.

A story I like what what is correct or not, and the present.

The Tibetan province of Kham is akin to America’s Wild West. The people of Kham are great equestrians, and like all who ride regularly, they love their horses. Until about a century ago, Kham was carved into dozens of smaller kingdoms, each of which had its own army, raised by forcible conscription.

There was once an old man in far eastern Kham known as the Mani Man because day and night he could always be found devotedly spinning his small homemade prayer wheel. The wheel was filled with the mantra of Great Compassion, Om Mani Padme Hung. The Mani Man lived with his son and their one fine horse. The son was the joy of the man’s life; the boy’s pride and joy was the
horse.

The man’s wife, after a long life of virtue and service, had long since departed for a more fortunate future. Father and son lived, free from excessive wants or needs, in one of several rough stone houses near a river on the edge of the flat plains. One day their steed disappeared. The neighbors bewailed the loss of the old man’s sole material asset, but the stoic old man just kept turning his prayer wheel, reciting “Om Mani Padme Hung,” Tibet’s
national mantra. To whoever inquired or expressed condolences, he simply said, “Give thanks for everything. Who can say what is good or bad? We’ll see…”

After several days the splendid creature returned, followed by a pair of wild mustangs. These the old man and his son swiftly trained. Then everyone sang songs of celebration and congratulated the old man on his unexpected good fortune. The man simply smiled over his prayer wheel and said, “I am grateful…but who knows? We shall see.”

Then, while racing one of the mustangs, the boy fell and shattered his leg. Some neighbors carried him home, cursing the wild horse and bemoaning the boy’s fate. But the old man, sitting at his beloved son’s bedside just kept turning his prayer wheel around and around while softly muttering the gentle mantra of Great Compassion. He neither complained nor answered their protestations to fate, but simply nodded his head affably, reiterating what he had said before. “The Buddha is beneficent; I am grateful for my son’s life. We shall see.”

The next week military officers appeared, seeking young conscripts for an ongoing border war. All the local boys were immediately taken away, except for the bedridden son of the Mani Man. Then the neighbors congratulated the old man on his great good fortune, attributing such luck to the good karma accumulated by the old man’s incessantly spinning prayer wheel and the constant mantras on his cracked lips. He smiled and said nothing.

One day when the boy and his father were watching their fine horses graze on the prairie grass, the taciturn old man suddenly began to sing:

“Life just goes around and around,
up and down like a waterwheel;
Our lives are like its buckets,
being emptied and refilled
Again and again.

Like the potter’s clay,
our physical existences
Are fashioned into one form after another:
The shapes are broken
and reformed again and again,
The low wall will be high,
and the high fall down;
the dark will grow light, and the rich lose all.

If you, my son, were an extraordinary child,
Off to a monastery
as an incarnation they would carry you.
If you were too bright, my son,
Shackled to other people’s disputes
at an official’s desk you would be.

One horse is one horse’s worth of trouble.
Wealth is good, but too soon loses its savor,
And can be a burden, a source of quarrel, in the end.

No one knows what karma awaits us,
But what we sow now will be
reaped in lives to come; that is certain.
So be kind to one and all
And don’t be biased,
Based upon illusions regarding gain and loss.
Have neither hope nor fear, expectation nor anxiety;
Give thanks for everything, whatever your lot may be.
Accept everything; accept everyone;
and follow Nature's infallible Law.

Be simple and carefree,
remaining naturally at ease and in peace.

You can shoot arrows at the sky if you like, My son,
but they’ll inevitably fall back to earth.

As he sang, the prayer flags fluttered overhead, and the ancient mani wheel, filled with hundreds of thousands of handwritten mantras, just kept turning.

Then the old man was silent.

In loving kindness.
SageTree

**SageTree** · 10-20-2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Sage, do you have any Buddhist equivalents? Anyone else?

About questions?

A YaHooka blog of mine.

The first piece is from a Tibetan teacher's explanation.

The Kalama Sutra is the link and the preface has some well..prefacing for the Sutra, which isn't that large.

I think faith and reason go hand in hand. This is the reason Buddha explanation of the Dharma, has helped me along the path of knowing my'self'. And as No1 has stated I'll too agree, if we are living well now, there isn't much to fear in death. Create action of which regret won't ensue (karma).

Hope that is what you meant. Explaining suffering would be a personal diatribe that I don't feel is abundantly beneficial right now. Other than to say Clinging to anything leads to suffering, no matter how good it is at the time. Perspective (x3)

yo. · 10-20-2009, 11:40 AM

Any one know about Lilith?

**SageTree** · 10-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Wiki Gods

BibleGuy · 10-20-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by SageTree

About questions? ...The Kalama Sutra... karma...

Yes. I read your blog - great great stuff! Thanks, Sage.

Wow. The Kalama sutra. I can't help but notice this: The Bible's "Calamus" (for incense and annointing oil) is neither Hebrew, Greek or English. It is a Latin word "of uncertain affinity" (according to Strong's) that is translated "reed" from Greek Kalamos in Revelation 11:1, 21:15 and 21:16.

Greek kalamos is an obvious cognate to Sanskrit Kalama and, as far as I've been able to tell, it was applied to the Old Testament's qaneh bosem which was understood to be a unidentified "reed", hence the "Calamus" translation.

Per your blog, Buddha's suggestion #4 is to "...rely on the wisdom of direct perception of the Truth." Yes? And that is accomplished via meditation, right? "all phenomena have to be correctly understood in the field of Dhamma, insight is operative throughout."

The field of Dhamma (Pali) or Dharma (Sanskrit)... insight... that which comes from within. This is the gospel of Christ and the purpose for the anointing/unction; to look within. Why do I say that?

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (eggizo: near): repent ye (metanoeo: think differently), and believe the gospel (euaggelion: good message). (Mark 1:14-15)

So the "gospel" according to Jesus is that the kingdom of God is near, and we have to *think differently* in order to understand. How near is it? Where is it?

...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation (parateresis: occular evidence): Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold (idou: lo! (here is where to look: )), the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)

The kingdom of God = the field of Dhamma/Dharma = the place of insight. It seems that Jesus and Buddha agree, and this is where Kalama directs and Kalamos/Cannabis takes us!

I find this amazingly exciting common ground that should join rather than separate us (all people). This is why I asked you a while back about the story of Buddha eating hemp seeds under the "Bodhi" tree - I saw "Bodhi" as a metaphor rather than a species.

Buddha's Bodhi Tree (and Kalama Sutra)
Moses' Burning Bush
The Hindu's Soma
Jesus' wedding at Cana (from Hebrew qanah/qaneh, as in qaneh bosem) of Galilee (the "heathen circle", meaning of non-jews)

...all related to special plant.

What are your thoughts, my brother?

BibleGuy · 10-20-2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by kiLLeRrrr

Any one know about Lilith?

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. (Isa 34:14)

Screech owl is Liyliyth in Hebrew, meaning a night spectre.

That Wikipedia article is very interesting.

BibleGuy · 10-20-2009, 01:14 PM

Remember that song "Layla" by Eric Clapton?

Liyliyth (Lilith) is from Layelah, meaning properly a twist (away of the light), that is, night; figuratively adversity.

First verse of the song:

What will you do when you get lonely
No one waiting by your side
You've been runnin' and hiding much too long
You know it's just your foolish pride

Pretty interesting eh?