let us discuss christianity

[yo.]

how do people still believe in a book that has been edited and translated thousands of times, chapters removed and added, with normal human beings performing magic, splitting an ocean and walking through it, turning staffs into snakes, talking to burning bushes, getting pregnant with out performing intercourse, talking to angels? none of this ever happens any more yet people are still faithful to a religion that has been seceded from so many times? all protestant religions broke off from catholicism because of corruption... and it's been scientifically proven that we evolved from a species of monkeys....... goes to show how stubborn this world is and how scared we all are of death. it's natural human desire to want to belong to something higher than your self and no one wants to believe that there is nothing after death.

christianity has been disproved by the almighty science.

not only that but just probabaly every country or region of this planet has a different belief, so who's to say that any are right? i'm a person who believe is facts. and there is absolutely no PROOF that any sort of higher being ever gave any human being the knowledge of their existence and power. so, in theory, i believe in some sort of an eternally anonymous higher being that created the universe and things necessary to evolve into the wonderful, complex and capable beings we are today. discovering where i came from made me more content than any religious view ever has. belonging as another intertwined part of this universe, like all universal matter, is my enlightenment to you.

what are we? animals. what makes us special? nothing. what makes us different? 4 billion somethin years of evolution, the complex minds we have, the ability to shape the world and things in it as we see fit. and the ability to innovate, and mass communicate. while these are nevertheless stunning and marvelous compared to other species, we are still part of the same tree. we all evolved from this planet. so what makes us subject to the word of "god" and not animals? or aliens? or children? nothing. and don't give me none of that purgatory BS.

in the bible, the term "herb salesmen" was later translated to merchants.
the term christ is hebrew or arabic for the annointed one, and in biblical days people used marijuana resin as a topical oil, annointing oneself with cannabis.

[verklingen]

why do you single out christianity?

the way i see it, religion was a way for us to come to grips with reality. the remarkable diversity of religious beliefs is, i feel, a powerful testament to the imaginative ingenuity of man. "science" as we recognize it today has been going on at least as long as recorded history (existing alongside religion in greece, rome, india, china & and mideast), and has fallen prey to the same dogmatic problem of religion.

the west forgot all about science after the fall of the roman empire, and when dark age scholars discovered ancient greek works of science they were considered in their respective fields a kind of perfect and unchangeable cannon. galen was considered the supreme authority on medicine/biology until the renaissance, and even people in that time were hesitant to rewrite his "truth." once the microscope was invented, observations made with it that refuted galen were considered false due to the "unnatural" method of observing. the telescope faced similar troubles, and these were rational thinking, "awakened" scientists; not the usual closed-minded dogmatic type you might expect of the virtuously religious. sir isaac newton spent the majority of his life's work trying to prove things in the bible scientifically. einstein refused the validity of quantum mechanics. examples of scientific dogma are myriad.

what i think this points to is that once humans achieve a certain level of comfort in their beliefs they become less likely to rethink things. when that belief is shaken some ponder and reach a new conclusion, but others are more likely to cling that much harder to their belief and resist contrary evidence all the more. both these responses are, i believe, based in that distinctly human gift of imaginative ingenuity i mentioned before. for those who accept change, they strengthen the incorporation of their beliefs with reality. for those who resist it, they imaginatively override the evidence to make it accord with their belief.

anyway i know this is about christianity but i just thought i'd explain how i see this psychological mechanism operating in general for all belief. no proof or evidence of fallacy can bend an unwilling believer.

[yo.]

yeah i didn't mean to single it out, i just can refer to it more. i'm not very knowledgable of other religions. but i'll read the rest of your post later, too high atm.

[BibleGuy]

Hey kiLLeRrrr,

This is kinda long. Please bear with me. I'd really like to know what you,and others, think.

"how do people still believe in a book that...?"

Great question. It is nuggets of truth and understanding metaphors and allegories that I personally look for. There are many in the Bible as well as other places.

"none of this ever happens any more yet people are still faithful..?"

A keen observation that irritates me because I observe the same thing. Jesus said

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)"

Wonderful! But were is this happening? Where are these people? Where are the real healings, miracles, life-changing power-of-god restoring-sight-to-the-blind kinds of things being done among the church(es)? I don't see it and that concerns me because I'm looking for this evidence rather than a warm fuzzy sermon.

"...probabaly every country or region of this planet has a different belief, so who's to say that any are right?"

True. Who's to say any of them are wrong either? Perhaps they all have portions of truth, and error.

"so, in theory, i believe in some sort of an eternally anonymous higher being that created the universe and..."

You seem to believe in what the Hindus call Brahman - "the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe" - that gives rise to... creation. In the Bible, he is identified as "I AM" and "I AM THAT I AM", which can be translated "I am what exists" or "I am what will become".

"so what makes us subject to the word of "god" and not animals?"

I suspect it's that we are aware of "god" and thus have a desire to know him/her/it and what he thinks. Defining exactly what is "the word of god" is the challenge, which is why we tend to look for evidence of someone who knows it.

"in the bible, the term "herb salesmen" was later translated to merchants."

Right. And also "Spice merchants". Rakal, in Hebrew.

"the term christ is hebrew or arabic for the annointed one, and in biblical days people used marijuana resin as a topical oil, annointing oneself with cannabis."

Yep, and Cannabis is a spice. A "chief" spice, that is, a head spice, as in spice for the head - where your brain is. Meditation spice.

Are your last two statements about Cannabis objections to Christianity or just great insights into the Bible? If they are objections, I understand because Christianity (the religion) denies this truth in favor of the anti-christ propaganda that's been pushed on us.

"And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them." (Mark 6:13)

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15)

We hear about anointing all the time. Anointed meetings here, anointed teaching there. But where's the oil? The real Exodus 30:23 oil? Even if they believe the "Calamus" (also psychoactive) translation, then where is that oil? I've never seen it in church or among professing Christians. Perhaps this is why we don't see "the works that I (Jesus) do... and greater works than these" in the "Church". The masses want to believe, but not if it involves cannabis because they've been duped into believing it's "Satan's weed" and that intoxication of any kind is sinful. Dogma is a powerful thing even when it's false.

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. " (Rev 3:18)

All of this from a shiny yellow metal? Or is "gold" something else? "Tried" is puroo in Greek. Here is the Strong's Concordance definition:

G4448 πυρόω puroō poo-ro'-o
From G4442; to kindle, that is, (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

• "Gold" is a common metaphor for illumination. You can decide if that the meaning here.
• "White" in Greek is leuko meaning, from λύκη lukē (“light”); white
• "And" in every occurance in this verse is kai in Greek, "Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force", which means that Rev 3:18 is one complete interconnected thought, including the "anoint thine eyes" part. With what? Shiny yellow metal refined with fire? Or is it "illumination" kindled with fire? Hmm... Which one relates to anointing that helps one "see"?

What is "gold"?

"And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11)

Frankincense: incense (that's one)
Myrrh: incense (that's two)
Gold: The same "Gold" of Rev 3:18? (is that three, or not?)

Food for thought... What do you think?

Regarding "Christianity", I personally think we need to discern what is of the contemporary religion vs. what is of the Christ.

[Mydriasis]

How do people believe that they exist, when science cannot prove that they do. Prove to me that you are not a figment of my imagination(Solipsis m)?

Dead-end debate. Science can not cover spirituality nor should spirituality cover science. They are a symbiosis.

If you think Christianity has not one good message to take to heart then I don't want to know what your beliefs are.

No I am not Christian but you cannot deny a persons faith unless it causes harm to society as a whole(imo)...

[yo.]

i'm not denying their faith, and i regard christianity as a really good religion, it helps people grow into good people. and i exist because i exist the same way you do. so if i was a figment of your imagination, why aren't YOU a figment of MY imagination? we both have em. but that doesn't make neither one of us "real"

and i'll respond to the others when i'm not high and exhausted from work.

[flappy]

Each religion is supported by a particular group consciousness. When you're done with one, you'll move on to another. This can take hundreds of incarnations.

[yo.]

but the whole ability of imagining something like religion is just our minds evolution from the ability to wonder why things are + the imagination + the desire.

the only reason Neanderthals didn't survive as long as us, is because we had a more developed brain. we could change the world around us, their minds couldn't comprehend that, nor believe some invisible person created everything.

[Grieves]

how do people still believe in a book that has been edited and translated thousands of times, chapters removed and added, with normal human beings performing magic, splitting an ocean and walking through it, turning staffs into snakes, talking to burning bushes, getting pregnant with out performing intercourse, talking to angels? none of this ever happens any more yet people are still faithful to a religion that has been seceded from so many times? all protestant religions broke off from catholicism because of corruption... and it's been scientifically proven that we evolved from a species of monkeys....... goes to show how stubborn this world is and how scared we all are of death. it's natural human desire to want to belong to something higher than your self and no one wants to believe that there is nothing after death.

christianity has been disproved by the almighty science.

not only that but just probabaly every country or region of this planet has a different belief, so who's to say that any are right? i'm a person who believe is facts. and there is absolutely no PROOF that any sort of higher being ever gave any human being the knowledge of their existence and power. so, in theory, i believe in some sort of an eternally anonymous higher being that created the universe and things necessary to evolve into the wonderful, complex and capable beings we are today. discovering where i came from made me more content than any religious view ever has. belonging as another intertwined part of this universe, like all universal matter, is my enlightenment to you.

what are we? animals. what makes us special? nothing. what makes us different? 4 billion somethin years of evolution, the complex minds we have, the ability to shape the world and things in it as we see fit. and the ability to innovate, and mass communicate. while these are nevertheless stunning and marvelous compared to other species, we are still part of the same tree. we all evolved from this planet. so what makes us subject to the word of "god" and not animals? or aliens? or children? nothing. and don't give me none of that purgatory BS.

in the bible, the term "herb salesmen" was later translated to merchants.
the term christ is hebrew or arabic for the annointed one, and in biblical days people used marijuana resin as a topical oil, annointing oneself with cannabis.

Suspension of disbelief and life long conditioning play a large role in most situations, extenuating circumstances leading to the need for faith/understanding play a role in others...

[hijabihippie]

[QUOTE=BibleGuy;51827 934]

Yep, and Cannabis is a spice. A "chief" spice, that is, a head spice, as in spice for the head - where your brain is. Meditation spice.

In Cambodia, cannabis is used to season chicken soup.

[JcP]

science is a religion...it requires belief and faith to believe that what you interact with with your senses (sight/touch/smell/hearing/taste) is real.

Science is the religion of observable phenomena. If I can see something: it is true.

Movies like The Matrix are the modern Spiritualist's equivalent to questioning the dogma of their day(s).

I am never in favor of questioning the worth of a belief system, as everything we think is a "shot in the dark." I personally think Christianity is the transmorphic represenation of the 'pagan' religious tradition of celestial worship through personifying the Sun (son) and integrating a moral code for the furtherance of a collective culture, but then again Jesus might have been chillin the fuck out in Galilee healin lepers and walking on water!

Science has yet to explain how life begins. And even when it does, it will not be TRUE, it will simply be the truth of that belief set.

beware of claiming Truth. You say you are a man of facts? what are facts but things you believe without question? how is that any different from a man thinking the Bible is true?
2+2=4. Fact. And you can prove it by showing me 2 apples put together with 2 other apples and then having 4 apples.
Jesus saves. Fact. And I can prove it by showing you what I was before I felt his presence, and showing you what I am now after being blessed. (for example).

[JcP]

but the whole ability of imagining something like religion is just our minds evolution from the ability to wonder why things are + the imagination + the desire.

this sure as heck sounds like science to me too!

[ionlylooklazy]

i like this quote

"YOU FOOL! YOU PRACTICE RELIGION LOL, YOURE A DUMBASS AND IM COOL BECAUSE IM AN ATHEIST. I SHALL NOW PROCEED TO EXPLAIN WHY BLIND FAITH IS DUMB, UNLESS ITS BLIND FAITH IN ATHEISM WHICH IS A COINCIDENTAL EXCEPTION"

[Tricto]

One thing that i want to know about modern Christianity is where the old testament comes into the whole equation? Whenever i bring it up to a Christian they say that Jesus basically said that it was incomplete or not the real thing, and that's why he came out with the new testament, what gives with that?

I ask because there's some pretty hateful things in there that i'm sure you've all probably read already, which to me seems to directly conflict with the tenants of peace and love for everyone that i thought Christianity was about.

Anyone care to share what the deal is?

[JcP]

One thing that i want to know about modern Christianity is where the old testament comes into the whole equation? Whenever i bring it up to a Christian they say that Jesus basically said that it was incomplete or not the real thing, and that's why he came out with the new testament, what gives with that?

I ask because there's some pretty hateful things in there that i'm sure you've all probably read already, which to me seems to directly conflict with the tenants of peace and love for everyone that i thought Christianity was about.

Anyone care to share what the deal is?

The New Testament is the chronicle of the new covenant. Basically God made a covenant with the Jews in the old testament, and Jesus' virgin birth, teaching, and death/resurrection represents a second new covenant with God.

Think of it like the second episode of a mini-series. Same show, but the message has changed. eye for an eye ----> turn the other cheek. etc etc.

You also have to remember that the Old Testament was REVOLUTIONARY in its time. While it seems obscenely barbaric to us now (enough with the burnt offerings already!), at the time it would be the equivalent of like...universal healthcare. Very progressive.

I forget where I read this, but I like it...the three modern monotheistic religions of Abraham can be defined as:

Islam: enlightenment is found in submission.
Judaism: enlightenment is found in tradition.
Christianity: enlightenment is found in compassion.


PS--- if you're curious, do some research about how Judaism was the manifestation of the age of Aries (the ram), while the age of pisces followed (the fish) it. The astrological parallels to our religious evolution is shockingly obvious to me after even a cursory exploration into it.

Verk, what was the website for that video? www.pharmacraticinquisition.com? something like that.
edit: yup. that.

[yo.]

i have been saved before and it drastically changed my life. for five years i said i "felt" god.
but the change went away in like two or three weeks, and the believers would say i just lost faith due to not going to church etc. but i realized recently, that feeling was just an overwhelming joy to have been so happily and lovingly accepted into a world wide "truth" of belonging, and an after life better than this one, ten fold. who wouldn't feel that joy? thats all "god" is, IMO.

and i shouldn't have singled out christianity, shoulda been lets discuss religion.

[yo.]

"so, in theory, i believe in some sort of an eternally anonymous higher being that created the universe and..."

You seem to believe in what the Hindus call Brahman - "the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe" - that gives rise to... creation. In the Bible, he is identified as "I AM" and "I AM THAT I AM", which can be translated "I am what exists" or "I am what will become".

Can you elaborate on that more? what is the transcendent reality which is the divine ground?

"so what makes us subject to the word of "god" and not animals?"

I suspect it's that we are aware of "god"

read what i said earlier about how we are only able to comprehend these beliefs because of our minds evolution. you're talking like homosapiens are special..? We are still on the same family branch as monkeys.

sidenote: monkeys have two ways of attracting a mate: aggressively sporting their large canines, or bringing the female food. so say that this one monkey ALWAYS just gets the bitch food right? teaches his offspring of that one female to do the same, and his other however many sons, and they teach their sons, and so on and so on over 4.4 billions years, their canines significantly got smaller, hands and feet larger, taller, and amazingly the ability to walk upright, which is extremely odd in the animal kingdom, BUT made it significantly easier to gather food. and the evolution never stopped, and has yet to. we are giant, hairless, and far more intelligent species of monkeys, today.

We hear about anointing all the time. Anointed meetings here, anointed teaching there. But where's the oil? The real Exodus 30:23 oil? Even if they believe the "Calamus" (also psychoactive) translation, then where is that oil? I've never seen it in church or among professing Christians. Perhaps this is why we don't see "the works that I (Jesus) do... and greater works than these" in the "Church". The masses want to believe, but not if it involves cannabis because they've been duped into believing it's "Satan's weed" and that intoxication of any kind is sinful. Dogma is a powerful thing even when it's false.

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. " (Rev 3:18)

All of this from a shiny yellow metal? Or is "gold" something else? "Tried" is puroo in Greek. Here is the Strong's Concordance definition:

G4448 πυρόω puroō poo-ro'-o
From G4442; to kindle, that is, (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): - burn, fiery, be on fire, try.

• "Gold" is a common metaphor for illumination. You can decide if that the meaning here.
• "White" in Greek is leuko meaning, from λύκη lukē (“light”); white
• "And" in every occurance in this verse is kai in Greek, "Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force", which means that Rev 3:18 is one complete interconnected thought, including the "anoint thine eyes" part. With what? Shiny yellow metal refined with fire? Or is it "illumination" kindled with fire? Hmm... Which one relates to anointing that helps one "see"?

What is "gold"?

"And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11)

Frankincense: incense (that's one)
Myrrh: incense (that's two)
Gold: The same "Gold" of Rev 3:18? (is that three, or not?)

Food for thought... What do you think?

Regarding "Christianity", I personally think we need to discern what is of the contemporary religion vs. what is of the Christ.

No doubt, too much for my stomach, i mean head to handle.
haha

seriously though you are quite intelligent about this. what do you believe this 'gold' is? it must be an incense !

science is a religion...it requires belief and faith to believe that what you interact with with your senses (sight/touch/smell/hearing/taste) is real.

Science is the religion of observable phenomena. If I can see something: it is true.

FALSE: there is more to the scientific method than any of our senses, especially sight. researching, testing, and long periods of observation go beyond senses into the mind. you could argue that that requires belief of science, but science is the only truth in this world. and mathematics. also, our senses are real to us as individuals, so what we can all observe, IS real. what belief or faith does that require? that's fact. not a sense.

Science has yet to explain how life begins. And even when it does, it will not be TRUE, it will simply be the truth of that belief set.

beware of claiming Truth. You say you are a man of facts? what are facts but things you believe without question? how is that any different from a man thinking the Bible is true?

because science PROVES it wrong. a man believing the Earth was created in seven days is wrong.

2+2=4. Fact. And you can prove it by showing me 2 apples put together with 2 other apples and then having 4 apples.
Jesus saves. Fact. And I can prove it by showing you what I was before I felt his presence, and showing you what I am now after being blessed. (for example).

Jesus saves? Your belief saved you. I just posted before this one about i have been saved myself too, read it.

[verklingen]

belief is truth, bro. "truth" is just something people decide to agree upon. scientific truth is something that agrees with observation.

[yo.]

I see your point, i guess you can say i believe in science. But I would never consider it any thing of a religion.

[verklingen]

it's really no different when you consider it objectively. what separates science though is its built-in adaptability