Religious Debates

[Vidiot]

I only see two sides to any religous debates on this, or any other forum; those who are adamantly christian and can't understand how someone could condemn their soul by not worshiping jesus and non-christians, who cannot understand why christians worship him so zelously with no factual evidence. The battle plays out the same every time. The Christian says something inflamatory like "JESUS is my savior and cannot help but share HIS endless love with everyone until the world is all christian. And then the non-christians (it doesn't matter if they're muslim, jewish, agnostic, atheistic, whatever) always says "How could you be so blind?!? There is no evidence....and so on and so forth. The Christian usually quotes some scripture, ect. But the point is, if there are 150 million christians in the united states alone, why do the non-christians always way outnumber the christians? It just kinda seems odd. Also, its like no other religion exists execpt christianity. I don't remember the last time someone said "Those ignorant jews!", ect.

[Hedons]

I do believe in God (a pre-existing intelligent cause).

I also think that organized religion is something that we would be better without.

Ever see the movie "Domga"? Remeber at the beginning of the movie, Loki was talking with the nun.

Here is an excerpt for those who haven't seen the movie. (see below)

Granted, this line, even in the movie is meant as a joke on the nun, but it really does seem to make a point about organized religion.

Why people can't respect other peoples religious views is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is that when you find (what you perceive as) a good thing, you want to share it with others. However the sharing is usually not wanted, and it has become pushing and forceful.

-Hedons


Nun:I don't understand - how can you base your lack of belief in God on the writings Lewis Caroll?

LOKI: Leaving 'Alice in Wonderland' aside, look closely at 'Through the Looking Glass' - particularly 'The Walrus and the Carpenter' poem: what's the metaphorical meaning?

NUN: I wasn't aware there was one.

LOKI: Oh, but there is - it colorfully details the sham that is organized religion. The Walrus - with his girth and good-nature - obviously refers to either the Buddha, or - with his tusks - the lovable Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. This takes care of the Eastern religions. The Carpenter is an Obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was purportedly raised the son of a carpenter. He represents the Western religions. And in the poem, what do they do? They dupe all the oysters into following them. Then, when the oysters collective guard is down, the Walrus and the Carpenter shuck and devour the helpless creatures, en masse. I don't know what that says to you, but to me it says that following faiths based on these mythological figures insures the destruction of one's inner-being.

LOKI: Organized religion destroys who we are or who we can be by inhibiting our actions and decisions out of fear of an intangible parent-figure who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says "No, no!"

LOKI: 'Through the Looking Glass' - a children's tale? I think not.

NUN: (really dazed) I've... I've never really thought about it like that...(beat; shocked; off her cassock) What have I been doing with my life...?

LOKI: Don't look back. Just get out there and taste life. (off donation can) Leave this for the unenlightened. Poverty is for the gullible - it's another way the church is trying to control you. You take that money you've been collecting for your parish reconstruction and go get yourself a nice piece of ass. You deserve it.

I think there are many Christians out there who don't feel the way organized religion is portrayed. It takes true inner strength and enlightenment to truly believe. Following Christ is not being led by the nose and believing blind. It is the hardest thing I have ever done. Yes, there is the factor of faith. Where the faith or ideas or whatever you want to call it comes from doesn't matter. Whether it be your own inner voice, a reference to the scriptures, or from an organized religion (whether it be Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, Hindu or whatever). It still must come from your own inner belief that what you believe is truth for you. My personal opinion is that doesn't need to be what everyone else believes or thinks you should believe. It comes from deep within yourself. My personal belief is that is the Holy Spirit, but I don't care what you call it. Then when you receive that call or message, or enlightenment or whatever you must remain true to it. I believe there is only one God. And one devil. They get masked behind different names, ideals, etc. but Everyone is following one or the other. Whether they know it or not. And many times, both, however unawares. I guess my own message with this is To thine own self be true. Search, learn for yourself. Allow whatever inner guidance to speak to your heart. God is love...the Devil is evil. It is the same God and the same devil no matter what religion, belief, etc is out there.

[quote]Originally posted by Dissident:
<strong>"Religious Debate"

sounds like an oxymoron to me</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't know what I'm doing wrong but when I try to reply with quote it always sends it. I would be open to any help with what I'm doing wrong!

I had to look up oxymoron in the dictionary because I didn't know what it meant. It is "a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms are combined to produce an epigrammatic effect e.g. cruel only to be kind"
Websters Dictionary the huge blue one.
That I don't quite understand. What in what I said was that? Excuse me, I really truly don't see it so if you could explain I would love it.

If you mean same God? I really believe that. I have a basis for that. I'm not scholarly, but...Christians, Jews, and Muslims are have the same beginnings. All begin with the God of Abraham. They intersect again with Solomon. Every other God in the other religions of faith teach the same things. There "laws" are basically the same.

You will have to explain to me if it's just my ignorance that doesn't understand the oxymoron thing.

Thank you for explaining yourself. I apologize for my ignorance. I agree with you about religion and spirituality.

I was not trying to say that just because those 3 religions begin with the god of Abraham that everyone's does. I was just saying that everyone's "religion" if founded on principles of love, forgiveness, and a longing for something of an afterlife. Or...it is founded on evil. If you really study and look at the different beliefs in the world, even those whose god did not begin with Abraham, their laws, set of beliefs, goals, enlightenments, whatever... are founded on principles of love, etc. Like I said, sometimes it contains both, good and evil. All the different faiths of the world have some common denominators. I don't believe anyone has all the answers, we just all need to learn how to love one another, and pray for peace!

[Vidiot]

I don't remember posting anything like "lets have a religous debate".....it was simply the title to a subject. Where did you get the idea that was the point of this subject? I'm simply making the observation that it's ALWAYS Christian vs. the rest of the world. Nobody ever comes on a board and says "I must show the true love of ALLAH to all!" or "I must spread Yaweh's word. (jewish god)". But it most cases its the agnostics and atheists vs the christians, while the jewish, muslim and whatever other organized religions never say anything about it.

[Vidiot]

I don't remember posting anything like "lets have a religous debate".....it was simply the title to a subject. Where did you get the idea that was the point of this subject? I'm simply making the observation that it's ALWAYS Christian vs. the rest of the world. Nobody ever comes on a board and says "I must show the true love of ALLAH to all!" or "I must spread Yaweh's word." (jewish god). But in most cases it's the agnostics and atheists vs the christians, while the jewish, muslim and whatever other organized religions never say anything about it.

I live in America like most on this board do. And in defense of Agnostics and Atheists all I have to say is that no Jew, Buddhist, Muslim or Taoist ever told me I was 'lost' or 'I have to believe in something' or 'you are going to hell.' Christians are the only ones who have said such things to me. Just something for ya'll to think about.

[Vidiot]

You missed the point. It relates to religious debates, if you can't see that, i'm sorry. People like to start religious debates. I made a comment on religious debates. But i never said "lets start a religious debate", did i?

As for Toke-a-holic's comment.....that is a very good point.

I don't understand Violet, how can you bring up the topic "religious debate" and not accept someone giving you their opinion. Did you only want to talk about how bad Christians are for being the only ones that think salvation is for all?

That is one of the differences I see in being Christian. I'm not trying to say that all faiths are the same. Not at all!!!!!! But I took these two quotes from websites about Taoism and Zen and both have the principles of love.

"We believe in the formless and eternal Tao, and we recognize all personified deities as being mere human constructs. We reject hatred, intolerance, and unnecessary violence, and embrace harmony, love and learning, as we are taught by Nature. We place our trust and our lives in the Tao, that we may live in peace and balance with the Universe, both in this mortal life and beyond." Creed of the Western Reform Taoist Congregation 1

"As Bodhisattvas we hope never to reside beyond caring and compassion for all sentient beings; may we all be moved to empathy, compassion, and clarity, leaving go of anger, greed, and folly. We reject hatred, intolerance, and unnecessry violence, and embrace harmony, love and learning, as we are taught by nature."

All faiths are different and all have something unique to themselves. All meet different needs in our universe. Everyone has a right to their belief. All Christians are not bad, brow beaters who preach hell and damnation. I think we have more in common than not.

[Dr. Greenthumb]

There is a reason why you notice this promenience among many christians to be vocal and overbearing in sharing and trying to transmit their beleifs. The reason for this is that christianity was purpetrated by this sort of attitude. The spread of christianity was tremendous and sudden, and christianity is the only religeon that comes easily to mind that has operations in poverty-stricken countries to convince the disadvantaged populations that being christian-like them-will get them better lives. These initiatives often try to buy peoples faith by offering resources of one type or another. The other two major monothiestic religeons could care less whether you subscribe to their beleifs. Judaism is a very difficult religeon to be converted to, and requires years of study of hebrew and the judaic texts. Im not sure about the process of conversion to Islam, but I imagine its something along the same lines.
Contrast this to dunking yourself in water, and you can see why christianity spread so quickly. Pushing People to convert is a long standing christian tradition, which was exercised by most conquering christian empires, from the Romans on up. Even the Islamic empire allowed for the respect and practice of local traditions and cultures, and while Islam was spread far and wide, it was rarely enforced under penalty of execution, as was the christian tradition.

Anyway, so that why I think you hear much more from Christians, because for the past centuries, christianity has engaged in an all-out assault on ALL othe beleif systems...

I must agree with much of what you said Dr. Greenthumb, although I didn't like the way you explained it. Jesus gave the command, "Go ye into all nations and preach the gospell, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. So...hence Christians have done that. One of the main differences between other faiths and Christianity is that salvations is a free gift. God's grace is poured out upon us.

So, like I said. I agree with your assessment.

One more thing. I also agree with you that many Christians are completely overbearing in their expressing their views. This is tremendously unfortunate. I feel they do more harm than good.

well, if you really wanted to be an asshole about it, most christians are WHITE (no offense). my theory is that western culture has promoted this attitude. western history isn't more or less bloody or evil than the history of any other place in the world, but in the west there IS a pervading attitude of aggression and a certain refusal to accept anything different from one's own familiar sphere.

[Vidiot]

livinggrace....this topic just flew way over your head. It has NOTHING to do about my opinions of christians. I never said "christians are BAD!" or anything of the like. I simply pointed out that NO OTHER RELIGIONS GET DISCUCSSED except CHRISTIANITY! The Tao don't come here and say "Come bask in the eternal glory of Buddah!". Dr. Greenthumb was the only one two actually provide some meaningful insight on the topic, and in a way, answer it. Kudos Greenthumb.

Oh, by the way livinggrace.....why did you pick jesus as your savior? Why is he right and all other religions wrong?

[Vidiot]

Dissident, you didn't capitalize the beginning of your sentance. It makes you look like an idiot not not using correct capitalization. But i guess i can feel you because i mannaged to SWITCH TWO LETTERS AROUND IN MY FRANTIC TYPING.... stop being such a dick and stick with the subject at hand. Oh, and i don't remember adressing the previous message to you at all....hmmmm

[twigburst]

Most black people i no are christians, they are usually just alot more liberal.

Vidiot, you asked how I picked Jesus as the one for me. I'm been thinking about that and the same God discussion from Dissident. Well, I got really stoned this morning and thought I'd answer you.

I believe I picked Jesus as my Lord and Savior because that was who I was taught as a child. That is one of the main reasons I believe it doesn't matter who you choose, it is the One you call out to as a child. He/She is the same One that answers all. I just plain and simply believe that. To tell you the truth, I'm glad I didn't meet all of you before that because I don't know where I would have ended up. But I find these discussions so stimulating now.

What God brings me is peace. That is why I pray for peace and want everyone to pray for peace. Yesterday was my birthday and I got a job that I have been praying about since May. I want the "perfect" job. This one isn't it, but it will allow me to pay all my bills, which wasn't the case in the natural before that. So...but it's interesting because I truly believe God teaches prosperity.

[quote]Originally posted by twigburst:
<strong>Most black people i no are christians, they are usually just alot more liberal.</strong><hr></blockquote>


that's true, but it's almost like a different religion, i've gone to an all african american church in the south and you could feel how alive the faith was in there, and i really respected it. in fact, i wish that more religious people would worship that way.