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Old 03-15-2006, 08:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Abortion? Sex? Homosexuality?

What are your sentiments toward abortion? When should it be allowed, if ever? When should it be denied, if ever? Please refrain from stamping yourself "pro-life" or "pro-choice" as both labels are thinly-veiled politicizations of biased groups who seek to validate their beliefs with hopeful-sounding nomenclature rather than solid, logical arguments.

I believe that the prevalence of abortion in our society is a symptom of a deeper illness. Boys and girls today are being taught by the greater American society that promiscuous relations with the opposite sex (or, in some cases, the same sex) is something to be, if not celebrated, at least considered nothing remarkable. Several things, not all of which are wholly bad, have lent to this situation: widespread access to various methods of contraception; prevelance of sex and sexual themes on television and in movies; the feminist revolution of the 80's which caused women to become influenced by the false myth of rampant male promiscuity, embolding them to seek sexual relationships with multiple partners in an attempt to secure absolute equality; the explosion of interest in the homosexual lifestyle of the mid to late 80's which further advertised the concept of sex without responsibility.

I (obviously) see this as a problem, but what do you think? Please discuss with civility and a bowl or two.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think that it is a women's freedom of choice to have an abortion, she's carrying the baby, dealing with intense pain and suffering, it is her baby, her uterus, her choice.

As for homosexual marriages...why not? im a straight male, but i dont see any problem with gay people wanting to get married. if the partners love each other, and are dedicated to each other, they can function as a couple and raise a family, just like any other family.

Also, there is a lot of discrimination towards gays in the highschool system. When used by a common highschool student, the words, "gay" and "fag" have nothing to do with sexual orientation, as they are used as merely as insults and put-downs. That is disgusting and degrading to a perfectly healthy and normal culture.

Children at a young age need to be taught tolerance towards gays and people with alternative lifestlyes in the elementary schools. We need to eliminate the prejudice at its source and stop the hurtful stereotypes towards gays.

As for sex...i say, GIVE'R, as long as protection is involved and you know your partner well enough (make sure there are no diseases, for example).
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I believe everything mentioned above is your own decision. Now right or wrong I can't say. I believe the answer to that is between us and our maker.
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoney
I believe the answer to that is between us and our maker.
But surely our maker has left clues as to which courses would be the most advisable? At the very least, we can decide this for ourselves by weighing the results of each choice we make with a scale which objectively measures the benefits and disadvantages. We can then decide whether the impact of such choices is desirable or not.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Why would gods leave clues when we have free will. All paths lead to death of the physical and the only 'sin' is to be boring.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Governor
Why would gods leave clues when we have free will. All paths lead to death of the physical and the only 'sin' is to be boring.
You misunderstood my post, and despite seeming to argue with its point you manage to confirm it: we have the free will to decide which practices are beneficial and which practices are detrimental.

In my eyes, rampant and unchecked satisfaction of sexual desire leans more toward the detrimental end of the spectrum. While a celibate nun and a skanky prostitute both meet death eventually, which lifestyle do you feel affords society more of a chance to progress (barring any bias toward religion)? I understand that a nun is probably not going to do very much for society, but what could a hedonist prostitute hope to accomplish other than the satisfaction of desire?

Just because something is exciting doesn't mean it is helpful, and just because something is boring doesn't mean it is virtuous.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by verklingen
But surely our maker has left clues as to which courses would be the most advisable?
I guess it all depends on who you credit as your maker........ who are we to judge? And as far as the whole nun verses prostitute thing goes just remember that Moses was a murderer and Noah a drunk.....
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
which lifestyle do you feel affords society more of a chance to progress?
Well said, I share your opinions here, I think... On these subjects, homosexuality and abortion, do you consider it anyone else's place to tell others what to do? I think society will progress easier by not making illegal the decisions that are personal.

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Originally Posted by Stoney
And as far as the whole nun verses prostitute thing goes just remember that Moses was a murderer and Noah a drunk.....
As verklingen was quoted there, which lifestyle do you feel affords society more of a chance to progress? Moses and Noah needn't have anything to do with it, even if you're an atheist your maker has left you signs. The way alcohol makes you depressed when you abuse it is a sign not to abuse alcohol, or another for example, your parents advice and the advice you hear from everyone.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks for clearing that up, moldyorangepeel. The simple fact is that we (personally and as a society) have the free will to choose what we do and a discerning mind to weigh the consequences. Your example with alcoholism is keen.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:27 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I guess I feel that we have no way to honestly know what will help or hinder society in its progression. I know that some of the worst things in societys history has eventualy brought with it lots of change for better. I think that as we progress as individuals that society can't help but do the same...... But who are we to know what will eventualy bring progression.
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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You know all it ocmes down to is what you want to do and what you think. If you think it is wrong because you were told it is wrong and the majority of people think its wrong then you yourse;f have a problem. The person doing what they want have the choice to do it because they are able to and they dont care, why? Because they want to do it and its not wrong to them. If you say something like a whore is going to goto hell becasue she sleep around and dosnt help society out at all then in my point of view your views are compeltely wrong and like I said your the one with the problem. Who cares what others think becasue its your life, live it how you want to live it. If your doing it, it obvisouly happened for a reason so we all follow the same path to the end, just in different ways.
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
I believe that the prevalence of abortion in our society is a symptom of a deeper illness. Boys and girls today are being taught by the greater American society that promiscuous relations with the opposite sex (or, in some cases, the same sex) is something to be, if not celebrated, at least considered nothing remarkable. Several things, not all of which are wholly bad, have lent to this situation: widespread access to various methods of contraception; prevelance of sex and sexual themes on television and in movies; the feminist revolution of the 80's which caused women to become influenced by the false myth of rampant male promiscuity, embolding them to seek sexual relationships with multiple partners in an attempt to secure absolute equality; the explosion of interest in the homosexual lifestyle of the mid to late 80's which further advertised the concept of sex without responsibility.
I think this statement is a crock of shit. "Deeper illness" meaning what....what "illness" are you taling about? I'd be more worried about the mis-information being spread in the form of "abstinence only" sex-ed than those evil feminists and gays spreading their dreaded ideas of promiscuity.

Why is it the people who care so much about a cluster of cells when a woman wants to abort, don't give a shit about the the thousands and thousands of of these blastocysts destroyed by fertility clinics? Or even worse, don't care about the kids who are already here.

If you argue that "life begins at fertilization" then nature is the biggest abortion provider out there....miscarriage s, spontaneous abortions, lack of implantation in the uterus all result in death.

If you ask me, we need more abortions not less. How many people can this planet support...8 billion, 9, 10?
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Old 03-15-2006, 02:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JahBohl
"Deeper illness" meaning what....what "illness" are you taling about?
Wanton pursuit of the satisfaction of desire, which would have been made clear to you if you read through the rest of the thread.

Can anyone really argue that living solely for instantaneous gratification of desire is healthy? If so, I guess I should stop going to the health club and start frequenting my nearest crack house. It's all the same, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JahBohl
I'd be more worried about the mis-information being spread in the form of "abstinence only" sex-ed than those evil feminists and gays spreading their dreaded ideas of promiscuity.
What is so evil about letting kids know that sex is something serious, and not to be trifled with? Sex is for making babies, and sexual pleasure is Nature's way of giving us incentive to spread our genes. Sex for pleasure is a human afterthought.

Along the same lines, I understand that dolphins and other species engage in sexual acts for pleasure, but how many aborted dolphin fetuses do you see floating around the beach?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JahBohl
Why is it the people who care so much about a cluster of cells when a woman wants to abort, don't give a shit about the the thousands and thousands of of these blastocysts destroyed by fertility clinics? Or even worse, don't care about the kids who are already here.
I don't know anything about fertility clinics, but I assume blastocysts are eggs fertilized in a lab environment? If so, many of those embryos do get destroyed, so you've raised a good point. But that's a seperate issue which shouldn't concern us.

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Originally Posted by JahBohl
If you argue that "life begins at fertilization" then nature is the biggest abortion provider out there....miscarriage s, spontaneous abortions, lack of implantation in the uterus all result in death.
You couldn't be more right! Nature is a dangerous environment: survival of the fittest, yada, yada, yada. But wouldn't educating persons who wish to abort their child about the consequences of intercourse before the desire for an abortion is made possible be more proactive? Wouldn't that do more of a service than allowing people to repeat the same mistakes over and over, without any sort of growth in personality and character: allowing them to, in essence, remain as children their entire lives without any concept of consequences for their actions?

Allowing a promiscuous patient to undergo abortion after abortion is no different from allowing a diabetic patient to eat at McDonald's every day and just upping their medication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JahBohl
If you ask me, we need more abortions not less. How many people can this planet support...8 billion, 9, 10?
2 billion. . . according to this site.

If you advocate unchecked abortion, your sentiments are akin to advocating government-ordered sterilization. Both admit a mistrust of people's individual intelligence and ability to become educated: one allows people to make the same mistake over and over without learning anything; the other forcibly negates any choice at all. The ends are the same.
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Old 03-15-2006, 06:11 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
Allowing a promiscuous patient to undergo abortion after abortion is no different from allowing a diabetic patient to eat at McDonald's every day and just upping their medication.
verklingen this is where we disagree, diabetics SHOULD be allowed to eat McDonalds everyday. Making a law forbiding them isn't necessary and just gunks things up even more trying to enforce it. How are we going to learn anything if we are being told we're wrong by our laws rather than our own common sense? Allowing unchecked aborting is really respecting individual freedom and denying the arrogant and overbearing "I know what's best for you and you'll do it my way."

Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
If you advocate unchecked abortion, your sentiments are akin to advocating government-ordered sterilization. Both admit a mistrust of people's individual intelligence and ability to become educated.
People must be FREE to make mistakes in order to learn from them. There is no admitting a mistrust of people's intelligence in allowing them abortions, quite the opposite. Restricting freedom is a mistrust of free-will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
The ends are the same.
Though I disagree with this because one way restricts freedom and one embraces it, if you think it's true then why not advocate freedom of choice? Do you fear people are inable to learn and teach others from their own mistakes? I don't know why you are against the term "pro-choice" because it cuts directly to the point.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Salaam verk. Interesting position regarding sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by verklingen
What is so evil about letting kids know that sex is something serious, and not to be trifled with? Sex is for making babies, and sexual pleasure is Nature's way of giving us incentive to spread our genes. Sex for pleasure is a human afterthought.

Along the same lines, I understand that dolphins and other species engage in sexual acts for pleasure, but how many aborted dolphin fetuses do you see floating around the beach?
I feel that in your assessment you're focusing too intently on the purely biological aspects of it, while disregarding the psychological, conscious elements involved. There needs to be recognition of numerous factors. Sex is much more than just procreation. Just as there's more to human relationships than just survival and population sustainment. There's the connection shared, the intimacy, the passion, an electric charge. The act of physically exposing onself to another in a society obsessed with appearances. All this contributes to numerous psychological changes. Alleviates stress, relaxes, increases confidence, allows for a more positive outlook and self image, and it gives you that viagra commercial feeling. It has numerous health benefits. An active, responsible sex life is a great and completely positive addition to anyones life. The pleasure derived from it is nothing to scorn, or scoff at. We require pleasure, we seek to always increase the pleasure we soak in from life. It's unhealthy NOT to have pleasure in your life. Especially if you work 40 hours a week. It's damn near suicidal.

Responsibility is obviously the key player in this though. This is on the part of society as a whole, not just the individuals having it. If people used birth control, took the necessary steps, there'd be a tremendously lower amount of unplanned pregnancies. The issue is accessibility and confidentiality. People need to be able to go somewhere, get the birth control they need, and not require anyone else knowing. Personally, it's unreal at 19 how many people I know who got pregnant at 15-18. And of course there's even younger. Considering this, it should be made available along with the sex ed programs. You can't just educate them then leave them to their own devices in attaining it. It's not like people at these ages can be open to bringing it up with their parents, if their parents would even go for it or not, and they can't exactly drive somewhere to get it themselves. In this aspect it's a social responsibility.

Parenting though is where the real responsibility is. But feeding and providing for their children is also a very real responsibility of a parent and unfortunately for many it's financially unrealistic to have a 1 income household. There's a lack of adaquet parenting with today's generation. This leaves a lot of the raising up to society, their intake from the social environment. Our society is focused primarily on money. Marketters, in order to generate income, exploit different characteristics of human psychology in order to attract them to a product. Sex sells and damn near everything is for sale. People adapt to the environment, and what does this teach children? It teaches them materialism, valuing money more than people. By glamorizing and exaggerating, there's portrayed a one sided picture of damn near everything. You hardly ever get the full panorma of any given matter without huge amounts of effort. Effort people just don't want to put in.

Naturally, a child begins life dependant completely on the parent. They depend on them to make all the decisions for them: when and where they eat, what they eat, what they do, our location etc. As time passes we naturally begin taking back that responsibility. We gain the responsibility of our location, do we want the chair or the couch? What we eat at certain times, etc. Due to a large exposure to medial and social influences, and the underexposure of parental influence and involvement, children begin learning and mimicking mature, adult behavior before they've developed the level of responsibility to do so. Of course this level of responsibility and maturity developes differently in everyone according to numerous factors.

It's a complex situation with many dynamics at work and many far reaching effects. I feel abortions should be minimized, there shouldn't be a need for it to progress that far. There's of course a grey area where it turns from cells to human being, but it's possible to avoid that grey area completely. Early abortions that don't venture into the grey area I'm alright with. The later ones though I have trouble accepting due to the numerous philosophical implications and the irresponsibility demonstrated on the part of the person in question. I'd suggest adoption, but that's another system entirely with quite a load as is I believe.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:57 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Hey there Verklingen

Quote:
Can anyone really argue that living solely for instantaneous gratification of desire is healthy? If so, I guess I should stop going to the health club and start frequenting my nearest crack house. It's all the same, right?
Gratification by process and discipline is great. Out of genuine curiosity do you mind sharing what you personally believe the process of delayed gratification brings an individual? Why you believe it is important etc...
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:10 AM   #17 (permalink)
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i wish a was aborted
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Old 03-16-2006, 06:58 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Without reading all ur comments, let me say this.

Morals and value's are things inherited from the past, making something special is because u want it to be special. We taught morals and values to our children in the hope that this would make their life easier and safer.

Example;
Telling ur daughter not to have sex early is only natural if u want her to grow up in a stable family where she's taken care off and can live happily. You don't want your daughter to end up in the slums cause she choose the wrong guy and got pregnant now. Thus this was given a high priority. Everyone who doesn't follow this dies shorter then expected and thus...we see that evolution even takes part even in culture, those that don't adapt, will die, those that do adapt will live to see another day, those that live tell their children how to live. You just created culture.

Culture is meant to enhance connection and communication between people. We protect our culture because we find those things important and we're all programmed from Day One what is good and what is bad, if we didn't follow those things we would most likely be dead. Having a strong culture allows everybody that's part of that culture to work BETTER together, striving for the same goals and striving for what u think is best. Hence why we defy different cultures since they are a threat to our own culture.

Now here's the pinch, science.

Science has found all kinds of neat ways for humans to do things in less time, easier and better. Laundry, cleaning, transportation, all of that has improved significantly, and we use it because it makes us BETTER. Having new culture inserted actually disrupts how people work together. Nobody wants to change things wich they are content with right now. There's no better in culture, there's only different, that's because culture is based upon our collective opinions gathered throughout time.

Some culture traits are more beneficial then others and those are the culture's wich survived and prospered. Those are the pillars of our society.

The fact is, that little children up to age 2 actually don't hold much personality. Personality memory and changes start to occur at age 2 to 4, those set the basis for the child. Basictly your not a person (brain and mentaly wise) untill your 2 years old when the first characteristics of the child start to form.

Embryo's up to 3 months don't even have nerve paterns to register pain and damage done to the body of the embryo, this is the point where western morals and values have determined the child to be alive, since brain functions are fired up and the heart soon starts pumping blood around.

Gay men/females have been known throughout history and spread all over the world. From Ancient Greece to famous writers in medievil english history. Although it's proven that being gay is a disfunction in the brains chemistry (proven largely) and a factor of society, it's no more a disfunction of a person not having legs and having to sit in a wheelchair. The real question is, where do we as a society stand on this? People tend to shape facts and opinions towards their preferred solution. That's wrong when your trying to stay objective because truely staying objective means that your open to any possibility and able to cross compare any example.

So...about that cripple, are you gonne tell him that he has to walk with sticks? or maybe your going to allow him to use a wheelchair?

So...about that gay, are you gonne tell him that he has to date woman and knock them pregnant? or maybe your can just let the guy live in peace and do whatever he thinks is best for him?

Sex...right, for some it's a holy thing, for others it just a way to get babies.
In ancient India there used to be cultures where people encouraged sex, it was a beautifull thing in their eyes, it was natural and it was a proof of love.
In ancient rome there were spa's where one would pursue in the acts of love with many women at the same time. Panick swiped as STD's were introduced, a new virus rapidly spreading thanks to the human sexual drive. Church banned public spa's to make sure not all their followers would die. It was considerd evil because you could get sick.

Sex and what you wonder about what it really is...is exactly that...your own thoughts.

I have therefore only one question to everyone in this thread.

Do u think you have the right to ''determine'' someone else's perception on life?

I believe for the sake of humanity, we should not. I also think that to be truely free we're all allowed to have our own morals and values no matter what. I don't believe however in hurting others. Those that are succesful with their morals and values will see another day. It's actually the same as a free-market economy where everyone has the right to engage in business. I believe in the right to engage in culture and society. Believe what you want to believe, do what u think is best for u, but don't force others to it or you'll disrupt the system, those that are not fit won't survive anyway.

Smoke a J and take care people.
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Old 03-16-2006, 07:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moldyorangepeel
verklingen this is where we disagree, diabetics SHOULD be allowed to eat McDonalds everyday. Making a law forbiding them isn't necessary and just gunks things up even more trying to enforce it. How are we going to learn anything if we are being told we're wrong by our laws rather than our own common sense? Allowing unchecked aborting is really respecting individual freedom and denying the arrogant and overbearing "I know what's best for you and you'll do it my way."
We are really not in contention at all, this is just a misrepresentation of what I said. I am not advocating a law which invalidates freedoms of the individual by making decisions for the population; what I advocate is a system wherein individuals are at least given the information necessary to make an educated decision on their own. Such a system does not exist in the medical establishment, nor in our society as a whole. Some patients get abortion after abortion, others eat double-cheeseburger after double cheeseburger. Neither is lead to believe that their actions are wrong, because more importance is placed on the person's "right to choose" than on his or her all-around well-being.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moldyorangepeel
People must be FREE to make mistakes in order to learn from them. There is no admitting a mistrust of people's intelligence in allowing them abortions, quite the opposite. Restricting freedom is a mistrust of free-will.
People are and should remain free to make mistakes, because people usually learn from their mistakes. But when a person does not learn from their mistakes, whose duty does it become to educate them? The fact that nobody, not even the individual in question, assumes this responsibility is, to me, a tragedy. Performing abortion after abortion on someone who refuses to learn on their own that their lifestyle may not be the most productive is as tragic as cleaning out the bedpan of a lazy, bed-ridden obese person without breathing a word of advice about getting up and walking around every once in a while. Rather than help our neighbors along with information and advice, society turns a blind eye to the problem and chooses to deal with its effects when needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by moldyorangepeel
Though I disagree with this because one way restricts freedom and one embraces it, if you think it's true then why not advocate freedom of choice? Do you fear people are inable to learn and teach others from their own mistakes? I don't know why you are against the term "pro-choice" because it cuts directly to the point.
A blind embrace of freedom is not freedom at all! If anything, it is an excuse for destructive behavior. Imagine you have a close friend who is addicted to heroin, and he asks you to go score him some smack. It's his choice, you reason, and he'll get some one way or another, so you consent. This is the same mentality of a society which (not allows, but) advocates abortion. This is letting a friend go on his destructive way without showing him a way to skip the middle-man and be satisfied without his fix.

Abortion isn't "wrong," it just doesn't solve anything.

P.S.: I am just as much against the term "pro-life" as I am against "pro-choice."
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Old 03-16-2006, 08:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Salaam verk. Interesting position regarding sex.
You make alot of good points, and I must admit I didn't have as clear a head on this issue as you do when I was 19 (I'm only 21, but still).

As you say, responsibility is the key. I'm not the Catholic church out to get people to stop having sex, but neither am I the music/tv/movie industry telling them to have as much as they can because it is their choice. It seems that in today's world people seek a partner expecting sex, and then move on to the next target. Very few aim to build a solid relationship, and the sex these people experience fails to convey the beautiful experience and connection you present.

Now, the one contention I find is your sentiment toward contraception. I am nowise against contraceptive methods for people who like to share a passionate sexual experience, but pushing them on impressionable children is like giving a kid her first car before she gets her license. She may know how to drive it, but she does not yet know how she should drive it. Contraception is helpful, but again, all it accomplishes is covering up the real issue: that our society has a relentless and unhealthy obsession with sex. I see no difference between giving contraception to a person who could just practice a little more self-control and giving amphetamines to a rambunctious child who could do better with a little discipline.
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