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Old 06-07-2007, 05:08 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Wow guys! So much great stuff to think about. I have many more questions but I'll save you the agony. lol. Thank you all very much for your thoughts so far though, it's been a really helpful read.
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Old 06-07-2007, 07:12 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm not wishing to be down on your philosophy, but I do think(believe)...per sonally...that it is the lack of compromise, or no room for adjustment or unwillingness to be maleable which is what has caused so many problems(negativity) in the world. And unless you call a spade a spade if it is, rather than thinking of it as a strawberry, I am not sure I understand how any progress can be made toward truth. Enlighten me?
kosh I apologize for dismissing you last night, I was on my way to bed and didn't have much time to reply. But I'd like to tell you that in my conception of reality there is infinite room for adjustment and infinite malleability, I don't know how you were lead to believe otherwise.

A strawberry is a strawberry and a spade is a spade, nothing can change that. But there are many ways to experience a strawberry. Have you seen the Maury show clips on youtube about people being deathly afraid of ridiculous things like pickles and balloons? My daughter absolutely LOVES balloons, and my wife loves pickles. But these people are deathly afraid of them to the point of crying and trembling. What nonsense, right? Pickles are good, and balloons are fun! But what we experience from these objects is vastly different from what these people experience.

How can we account for this massive experiential deficit? Well, when we are confronted with an experience we interpret it in one of two general ways: enjoyable or unenjoyable. What others might interpret as enjoyable (or attach no special meaning too) these people interpret as deathly fearful and bad, and they experience it as such. So our interpretations, and nothing else, define HOW we experience what we experience.

We're all vibration, and the experiences we encounter are determined by the frequency of our vibration. This is to me (in my personal understanding) a matter of physics and if you disagree so be it. When we experience something (which means we are vibrating a frequency which includes such an experience) and give it special attention by imbuing it with positive or negative meaning, we reinforce upon our vibration the frequency which represents that experience: a phenomenon which the ancients understood as karma. In judging these experiences -- whether positive or negative -- we set ourselves up to continually experience them because in judging them we continue to vibrate the frequency which they represent and we always experience what we vibrate.

So in my reality, it is left up to the experiencer to determine what he experiences and how he experiences. What's so unadjustable about that?

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Honestly...I like to fish sometimes...tis positive to sit idly on a rock, smoke a spliff with a line in the water. Catching something is nice...fresh and free food aswell as the sport of it. When I go to knock that fish on the head, I always feel a slight sense of guilt about doing that. Now is that positive or negative? There I'd say its just a fact of life...and compassion can co-exist with choice.
The "fact of life" there is twofold. For one, it is your fact of life that you feel bad about eating a fish. For two, it is our fact of life that we must eat to maintain our livelihood. Both of these are an agreement of sorts, one personal and the other collective. But both are only experienced as a function of vibration and nothing else.

We're very obviously at am impasse in regard to our separate viewpoints, but I thought I'd try and just get you to maybe understand a little better where I'm coming from.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
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People always talk about taking responsibility for our actions, why can't that apply as well to our beliefs and interpretations? I can take responsibility for my interpretation of asparagus as a nasty food and someone else can take the responsibility of enjoying it. It's just a food which is eaten as a function of sustaining life: something with no inherent special significance. But we can each assign very different meaning to the experience of sustaining life in that way by interpreting it differently.

I just don't get what's so abhorrent about applying this principle to all experience.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:30 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Perspecitves are always varied and different, but there is only one truth......right? Just becasue you look at that truth from a different angle, that doesnt make the inherent truth any different. I am referring more to religion and beliefs specifically rather than anything subjective like taste or the perception of a baloon.

Either Jesus was the son of God or he wasn't. There is no way perception can change the answer.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:45 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Perspecitves are always varied and different, but there is only one truth......right?
Of course there's only one truth: yours! There can be only one truth if you say there is.

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Just becasue you look at that truth from a different angle, that doesnt make the inherent truth any different. I am referring more to religion and beliefs specifically rather than anything subjective like taste or the perception of a baloon.
But what's the difference between the two? "I believe barbecue potato chips are delicious" and "I believe Jesus is the son of God" are both beliefs and they are both verifiable subjectively.

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Either Jesus was the son of God or he wasn't. There is no way perception can change the answer.
How not? You either believe he was or he wasn't, but you can't tell someone else what they believe. "Truth" is as open-ended as belief because our beliefs determine out truths and every truth is personally verifiable, it's just that in our reality we have a set of agreements which manifest as objective truths which determine the ways we interact. But they are still only truths because we believe in them, and only objectively verifiable because we agree on them.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:15 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I am by no means a negative thinker. I look for the positive in situations that don't really even have a positive side. I sometimes border on being naive and unrealistic because I am CONSTANTLY "looking on the bright side". I walked into a local produce stand to buy some veggies this week, after having one of the shittiest days I've had all year. But still, I carried myself in such a smiley and chipper way that the old man ringing me up told me that I looked like I was having a good day. I even find myself feeling compassion for the most evil of people, thinking they HAD to at least have one shred of goodness within them. "At least Hitler was nice to animals!" is a thought I've had that comes to mind. My boyfriend, on the other hand, holds on for dear life to the negative aspects of life. He will let a tiny setback fuck up his entire day. His mood will completely change at the first sign of shitty traffic or an unfriendly salesperson at the gas station. I guess we both go to the extremes, but together we seem to balance each other out.
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Old 06-07-2007, 05:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hahaha AL, that doesn't suprise me in the least. I'm sure everyone would get the good vibes off you.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:33 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by verklingen View Post
People always talk about taking responsibility for our actions, why can't that apply as well to our beliefs and interpretations? I can take responsibility for my interpretation of asparagus as a nasty food and someone else can take the responsibility of enjoying it. It's just a food which is eaten as a function of sustaining life: something with no inherent special significance. But we can each assign very different meaning to the experience of sustaining life in that way by interpreting it differently.

I just don't get what's so abhorrent about applying this principle to all experience.
because it's their belief. And their belief is that applying that principle isn't...er...good. (for arguments sake)

What will be will be. Frustration is the embodiment of an unrequited judgement. "This is the truth." "no, this is." "AAAHH!! What's wrong with you!?! How can you not see my point!"

You expressed yourself in the material world of seperatism (the external world) to "yourself," and you didn't get the response you wanted...agreement. When you don't get what you want, you continue to seek it. You repeat yourself...then you try a new tactic...then you get frustrated...then you pout...then maybe you try again.

Oh neat. Just realized that "letting go" means exactly that. I have a hard time letting go of things. And I think the key is to recognize that if you have trouble letting something go, it means you've put stock in external judgement of your judgements/opinions. Which isn't productive in developing your self-awareness. Unless of course it leads you to make a post like this manifest like this event just did. Hurray for "fate" !

Easy to understand. NOT easy to practice...as you can tell from most of my posts.
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It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:47 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Objectively verifiable? By who, yourself? With YOU verifying it is not objective, ergo, it is not objectively verifiable.

I grasp the viewpoint but find it a bit lacking and simplistic somehow. The concept and ideas are esoterical to elucidate certain ideas and points which are fascinating but surely it's not a philosophy to adopt. Just because I think the moon is made out of cheese and you think it isn't, doesn’t stop the possibilty there could be more to it than that. If I believe my own truth that the moon is made of chesse why do I then need to enquire any further or find out anything else, the moons made of cheese coz I say it is and believe it, end of discussion. - how productive is this??
On this logic, anything goes. I believe that 4ucking little kids and babies is 'right', it does them no harm, and you should cut of both of their hands afterwards, then they will be OK . Would you not fight and speak out against this belief? But then by your argument who are 'we' to say what is the truth and what is right. Using this theory why fight against any viewpoint or any act because in their reality it is truth?

Do you negate the presence of fact? I suppose it's much easier to justify your beliefs without the need for facts? Yes, granted, fact and 'what is' are all terms defined by the masses so we can then communicate our ideas to each other but that doesn’t necesseraily mean the ideas expressed are any less or more meaningful or 'truthfull'

Just because something is agreed upon universally doesn't make it any less or more true than one person believing it.

What will be will be. Frustration is the embodiment of an unrequited judgement. "This is the truth." "no, this is." "AAAHH!! What's wrong with you!?! How can you not see my point!" - Are you serious? I get frustrated when I can't do up my shirt or my hair doesn't go the way I want it to, not becasue someone else has a different OPINION. What you are talking about is intolerence. Unrequited judgement breeds discussion and stimulation. Continual requited judgement would be a terrible thing, like Christians who only associate with Christians or Muslims who only associate themselves with Muslims, much easier and 'safe' to have you beliefs confirmed rather than challenged. Different opinions and beliefs help me to question\reinforce\c hange my own beliefs and the way I think about things.

I suppose there are those who think with their head and there are those that know with their heart. I know which side of the fence I like to be on!
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Old 06-08-2007, 06:18 AM   #30 (permalink)
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You have (I don't mean you really "need" to, only if you want to understand my conception) to understand that infinity really is infinity, and that this infinity of possibility is achieved by a simple formula of free will + agreement + change + eternity -> infinity. This formula provides for all the infinite probabilities of existence, including all possible "truth."
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:50 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Objectively verifiable? By who, yourself? With YOU verifying it is not objective, ergo, it is not objectively verifiable.

I grasp the viewpoint but find it a bit lacking and simplistic somehow. The concept and ideas are esoterical to elucidate certain ideas and points which are fascinating but surely it's not a philosophy to adopt. Just because I think the moon is made out of cheese and you think it isn't, doesn’t stop the possibilty there could be more to it than that. If I believe my own truth that the moon is made of chesse why do I then need to enquire any further or find out anything else, the moons made of cheese coz I say it is and believe it, end of discussion. - how productive is this??
Hello, Transcend. I don't think I've had the pleasure of posting to you and vice versa. I'm not sure what objectively verifiable is in relation to in my post, so I'm going to have to move on from that.

If you think the moon is cheese, then the moon is cheese. What I think is irrelevant in your seperate consciousness. Only when you view the WHOLE of consciousness (which includes my perception that the moon is simply a projection of the inherent "female" in the universe which also cycles, unlike the sun which remains constantly male, AS WELL as the opinions that the moon is simply a planet, a moon made of cheese, a man in the sky, etc.) does the "truth" manifest: Everything is what you think it is. You are the creator of reality.

Indeed, if you believe the moon is made of cheese you are not obligated to enquire more. After all, all you're inquiring about is more opinions from yourself, the collective consciousness. If you do enquire, it means you're obviously not content with the belief that the moon is made of cheese. Otherwise, as you said, there would be no need/want to talk about it.

Productive? Understanding the reality of belief is no more (or less) productive than "learning" what the moon really is (because it's not REALLY anything. You've bought into an illusion.).

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On this logic, anything goes. I believe that 4ucking little kids and babies is 'right', it does them no harm, and you should cut of both of their hands afterwards, then they will be OK . Would you not fight and speak out against this belief? But then by your argument who are 'we' to say what is the truth and what is right. Using this theory why fight against any viewpoint or any act because in their reality it is truth?
Waves would be the one to explain this the best, in my opinion. But indeed, anything does go. Experience is experience.

If you wish to fight something, then fight it Transcend. But do not be mislead. You are fighting yourself and there is no "winning." Your experience of "fighting" is just as valid as the experience of fucking little kids. And it's your PERCEPTION that dictates your morality. The man who fucks the little kids obviously has a different perception than you. BOTH are required in the infinity of consciousness.

And included in that infinity of consciousness is the belief structure you have that it's wrong. In Hinduism, Cows are sacred. In America we eat them for lunch. Who is right?

In Ancient Greece, men used to have sex with young boys all the time. In America we view that as pedophilia. Who is right?

The answer is that there IS no right and there IS no wrong. There is merely the perception of such. And the evolution of this dual perception is towards unity. Where the "raper" and the "rape-ee" recognize that it's merely themselves doing it to themselves.

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Do you negate the presence of fact? I suppose it's much easier to justify your beliefs without the need for facts? Yes, granted, fact and 'what is' are all terms defined by the masses so we can then communicate our ideas to each other but that doesn’t necesseraily mean the ideas expressed are any less or more meaningful or 'truthfull'

Just because something is agreed upon universally doesn't make it any less or more true than one person believing it.
I negate the assertion that fact is immobile. It was FACT the earth was flat. It was FACT the earth was the center of the universe. It was FACT that marrying 12 year old girls was fine. It was FACT that horse urine cured baldness. It was FACT that there were sea monsters.

Our reality is defined by facts, but facts are merely more intense beliefs. The belief in gravity for instance. I spent months on here debating waves on this, but then I understood: it's just a belief. And through TECHNOLOGY, which is a "crutch" of sorts for the human race, we have begun to destroy the belief through flight.

How about the new "fact" of antimatter/dark matter? Before this "fact" came along, the universe was what could be observed. Now when we study electrons and dark matter (which we cannot see without our crutch of technology) we see that the universe is merely PROBABILITY. And that what we see as The Observer is what creates reality.

So if we all "saw" that raping little children was good...would it not be? Only your BELIEFS say otherwise.

And while I share your beliefs on this subject, I also recognize it as such. And that's the difference between spiritualists and materialists in my opinion.


I'm a little confused by your last couple sentences. If you believe that, how then do you reconcile your beliefs in the previous section that sex with young children is wrong?

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What will be will be. Frustration is the embodiment of an unrequited judgement. "This is the truth." "no, this is." "AAAHH!! What's wrong with you!?! How can you not see my point!" - Are you serious? I get frustrated when I can't do up my shirt or my hair doesn't go the way I want it to, not becasue someone else has a different OPINION. What you are talking about is intolerence. Unrequited judgement breeds discussion and stimulation. Continual requited judgement would be a terrible thing, like Christians who only associate with Christians or Muslims who only associate themselves with Muslims, much easier and 'safe' to have you beliefs confirmed rather than challenged. Different opinions and beliefs help me to question\reinforce\c hange my own beliefs and the way I think about things.
The reality you expected (your shirt being done correctly) did not manifest. You create your reality. Your judgement that "this is how it should be done" did not manifest. Hence your unrequited judgement that shirts should be easy to be put on lead to frustration. I fail to see your debate.

I'm sorry, but who said having things "safe" is bad? Just a different experience. And one I plan on exploring just as much as the experience of "unsafeness."

Different opinions come from the same place: infinity. You can think of a different opinion right now. I believe that cats are nasty. I now came up with a different opinion: cats are space aliens.

It is a sad sad day in consciousness when you need other people debating you to change/create your opinions. Cuz secretly? You're just debating yourself.

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I suppose there are those who think with their head and there are those that know with their heart. I know which side of the fence I like to be on!
The irony of these two sentences is pretty astounding. You still think there's a fence. And therein lies our disagreement.
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It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:48 AM   #32 (permalink)
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*scrolls thought a bunch of long posts by deep, intelligent people*

Yeah, maybe life is just kinda shitty?
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Old 06-11-2007, 01:49 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Kosh, I don't have the time to cut and paste reply to you for all of that.

But the main issue is pretty evident by the swimming metaphor.

You view death as negative. If I believe I can swim (but "really don't" know how to) and I get in the pool, I would drown. And you see this as a failure.

I didn't fail if I drowned. Unless I believed I failed.

I think you're missing a link here: It's not that I don't have opinions. I think being 40000 pounds isn't smart. I think beating people up is bad. Killing is bad. BUT I RECOGNIZE that these beliefs are PERSONAL. In the universe, these are neutral acts. Only when filtered through the perception of JcP do they become "bad" or "good." and the more I explore this concept, the more TOLERANT I am, and the more FORGIVING I am.

Show me moon rocks to prove to me the moon isn't cheese? Talk about devious deception. NOTHING is more devious than trusting your eyes over your heart.


ONLY YOUR BELIEFS say certain things have to be good or bad. And Kosh, more power to you on those. They are your beliefs and I do not want to change them for you. But I do hope that you'll recognize that everything you feel/see/touch/hear is personal. No one else will ever be you. Just as no one will ever be me.

And, for lack of a less cheese-zen way of putting it, we're all the same. So while I recognize the need for your beliefs in infinity, I don't seem to recognize the same level of respect for mine, or Waves.


Read your last paragraph and apply that concept to everything (including how people perceive reality) and I don't see the problem.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:17 PM   #34 (permalink)
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errand got cancelled. So Ihave time!


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With any cult, rationalisation is the core of such a place. Indeed many who comit sinister crimes can and do rationalise their actions through the very same rationale you put forward Jcp.
I will not be committing sinister crimes, Kosh. But you and I both have committed crimes by smoking pot. Who's value system are we using? There is a huge amount of people in this country who view pot as a DANGEROUS drug and people who use it as CRIMINALS! Are we committing a crime by smoking?

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Waves has said similar things. I challenge these things/beliefs not to be negative for negatives sake, but because I hope that somehow you will turn away from the dependance on language and its skillful application with which to make determinations as to what is right or wrong - or indeed useing language to suggest everything is good and bad. Is the moon good and bad? Possibly. Being an inanimate object, does it matter? Does it matter if one person dislikes asparagus while another loves it? Of course not.
Tell that to the asparagus farmer. He'd view the person who hates asparagus as negative. ESPECIALLY if the person who disliked asparagus said so on national television and made other people not want to try it.


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When speaking of violence or abuse though - to even attempt to rationalise such acts by suggesting that the universe chose this, or the victim and perpetrator chose it together is nothing short of devious deception. Through such a process of rationalisation, it means you can do anything you like - and decide to do it upon the basis that you believe it is good and just and part of your dharma or purpose in life regardless of any such moral compass as determined by societies expectations and laws and cultural sentiments. Some murderers merely say "god told me to do it". Are they insane, or were they sane and just in what they did?
Why do you assume that freedom would instigate mass murder, rape, and pillage? Am I alone in the world? Maybe that's why I've been given a gift to see things this way. When I think of doing anything I like, murder and abuse aren't on my to do list.

I'm not going to retype why abuse is silly, it's in another thread. In a nutshell: if we all recognized we're all one and what we believe is what is, we'd be abusing OURSELF. And that tends to put a damper on the whole "dominance" thing.

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Or were they sane and should be punished accordingly? Surely if every one embraced the philosophy you speak of, everyone could rob, cheat and steal because that was the secrets secret even if many would choose not to?
Punished? So not my job.

Indeed. I don't fear death. This life is TEMPORARY, no matter how safe we try to make it. If people want to spend their time stealing all my shit, more power to them. I, however, would die with my self-awareness and wisdom intact.

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Hence why I suggested earlier that the secret is dangerous and a cult. At least the standard religeons do draw some lines and try to define what is right and wrong to guide followers toward an understanding of why it is so. The secret on the other hand lets you choose.
Yikes. God forbid you're given a choice. I think I'm old enough now to choose what right and wrong is. And I'm adult enough to respect your choices as well (I don't believe in choice in the usual way, but I'll let it slide for now).


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I tend to agree with transcend completely in that an apple is either an apple or it is not - just because you believe it to be a plum does not make it so.
)
I'm happy you agree with transcend. Someone has to, or the universe wouldn't be complete.

If you close your eyes and you bite into a fruit and you believe it to be a plum, what fruit did you just eat?

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Add to that, that there are false prophets preaching such nonsense to hundreds of millions for dollars is indicative of the corruption of the process of the secret itself.
False prophets to YOU. Sigh.

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The main theme, and I know this kind of meanders into that past thread about 'judgements'; is that certain things have to be either good or bad. They cannot be both for the individual, unless he or she denies the process of truth elucidation and the application of reason itself.
only if you think they do. And you think they do, so they do. I know ONE TRUTH: I AM. Everything else is interpretation, including what you've deemed as "reason."

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Can all be refuted? Of course. Anything can be wormed out of. Doesn't that make you a worm? I get a hunch that some things in life should be dealt with in ways which are beyond intellectualism.
Who's being intellectual here? I'm saying live and let live, all is one, and what you believe is what is. You're the one shooting up walls and barriers, right and wrong, moral compasses, truth elucidation, etc.

Just sayin.
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If you are in touch with your true higher self which is conciousness and awareness of being, unlike a worms experience say(one must assume)
You are the worm. Understanding that is to be in touch with your "higher self." And understanding that puts all the "evil" in this world in a very VERY different light.
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Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
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It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:22 PM   #35 (permalink)
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*scrolls thought a bunch of long posts by deep, intelligent people*

Yeah, maybe life is just kinda shitty?


fucking zen right there
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Old 06-12-2007, 11:41 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosh View Post

If as you say 'one eats a fruit believing it to be a plum, what fruit did you eat'? By 'yourself', indeed it would be a plum you were eating, 'as you undertood things'. If you had witnesses though, perhaps one witness to you eating the fruit, and there was just the two of you...you said you ate a plum but he swears he gave you an apple. You could debate the point couldn't you? From the point of view of 50/50 in terms of respective opposing 'opinions' the debate would be equal. What if though, 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 people saw and 'believed' that you actually did eat an apple, wouldn't you be much more open minded toward that claim and belief, or would you remain ancoured in your own singular opinion? Surely, unless you were very stubborn you would at least consider the possibility that you may have eaten an apple, that it was an apple, and therefore your belief was wrong or questionable at least?
You could indeed debate, Kosh. You could debate until the cows came home. And 2, 3, 10, 320000 people could tell you their opinions and the debate could continue. The question is this: why do you insist upon putting YOUR reality into mine? If I asked "what did you just give me?" then saying "that was an apple" is one thing. To say "what a good plum!" and to be corrected "no, that was an apple" is a negative reinforcement and, in the ethereal sense, quite an aggressive action.

I ate "nothing" in actuality. The apple/plum is an illusion...an expression of infinity that has taken the shape of said fruit. MY BELIEF that the "apple" was a plum is not WRONG! How dare you ! It's my belief! You may DISAGREE, but you are no more right than I am in the eyes of this universe, or, more importantly, myself.

If you've ever taken an improv class, one of the main tenets of improv is that you ALWAYS support and never negate. So if someone walks in and says "I am captain Jack!" you don't go, "Actually no! You're the nursemaid!" That's CONTROL (which, by the way, is the mental form of murder).

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Originally Posted by kosh View Post
Cannabis is a plant. Many many people know its a plant too. As you know, this angle alone could be expanded, but suffice to say, there is a preponderance of opinion in western society any way, that says cannabis possesion is not deserving of persecution. If a democratic process were leaning toward a truthfull representation of 'reason' and its application, then societies perception that cannabis is 'not so bad' would 'not' be ignored, denied, and the process itself rendered void. Ask most people, if they think burglary or vandalism or violence, should be a crime and 90% would agree.
COMPLETELY avoided the point. Right and wrong is ambiguous because right to you is wrong to me. Pot is a prime example of this. So now it's "whatever the majority believes"? Now right and wrong is based on democracy? Okay. So in democratic greece, was it okay (nay, what is RIGHT!) to have sex with young boys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kosh View Post
Thats why those things are wrong and laws were created to deal with infringers. Yes, of course I am one to acknowledge exceptions, ie 'If you are starving, is stealing wrong'? Not. If in your heart you genuinly have no other way out, you steal.

Take any thing literally 100% and I am sure it just manifests error in processing. Ie, like say the ten comandments, 'thou shalt not steal', 'thou shalt not kill'. What if you were saving yourself from an attacker? 'Do unto others as you would have them done unto you'? See, some like to abuse themselves...that is what they want done unto themselves. So no wishing that on nobody. Huh?
I'm losing you Kosh. So now what you deem right and wrong aren't just determined by the majority, but they also are ambiguous in and of themselves? Who gets to determine when it's okay to kill someone and when it's not?

NO ONE wants to hurt themselves Kosh. PERCEPTION. You see it as them hurting themselves. THEY ARE PLEASURING themselves through hurting themselves. There is a VERY distinct difference there. NO ONE seeks pure pain and suffering. They seek pleasure THROUGH pain. Someone who gets his nipples clamped during sex isn't doing it because he hates it. He's doing it because he LIKES it.

So when you say "some like to abuse themselves...that is what they want done unto themselves" I think you're missing something. They are abusing themselves, sure. But they are doing so for pleasure. IF WE WERE TO BE AWARE of our single consciousness as a whole (which is happening slowly but surely) there would be no abuse because all would be pleasure. Perception.

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Originally Posted by kosh View Post


Unfettered freedom would lead to anarchy you suggest I believe? Do you know much history?

Would you actually wish power to someone who wished to 'steal your shit'? Whats all that about the secret again and wishing to create?

Sometimes indeed life can be kinda shitty FTW.
What exactly ARE you suggesting about unfettered freedom Kosh? Because unfettered freedom IS anarchy. Of course anarchy simply stands for lack of government, not "zomg people are shooting everyone!", but please explain this opinion of yours to me if you get a chance to.

Wishing? Who said anything about wishing? What I seek is awareness.
I don't know "The Secret." Never read it.

I truly have no answer to this last section. It's completely backwards in terms of thought as far as my perception goes. "I" don't "wish" anything for "someone" because I'd only be "wishing" it for "myself." And since I don't "wish" to steal someone's shit, I don't see why you would be inferring I "wish" for "someone" to steal my shit (?).
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JcP View Post
NO ONE wants to hurt themselves Kosh. PERCEPTION. You see it as them hurting themselves. THEY ARE PLEASURING themselves through hurting themselves. There is a VERY distinct difference there. NO ONE seeks pure pain and suffering. They seek pleasure THROUGH pain. Someone who gets his nipples clamped during sex isn't doing it because he hates it. He's doing it because he LIKES it.

So when you say "some like to abuse themselves...that is what they want done unto themselves" I think you're missing something. They are abusing themselves, sure. But they are doing so for pleasure. IF WE WERE TO BE AWARE of our single consciousness as a whole (which is happening slowly but surely) there would be no abuse because all would be pleasure. Perception.
Bashar has said that a simple maxim rules all experience: you will move away from what you perceive as painful and toward what you perceive as pleasurable. Without exception. It's ALL about perception. Why can this be such a hard concept to grasp?

edit: I don't think JcP has seen Bashar either, but he found the concept just the same.

kosh, you really dislike "the secret," don't you? Have you ever considered that this might stem from a misunderstanding? The secret isn't about getting cars or relationships. It's about living happily because it's your goddamned right as part of Creation. Why does that cause you discomfort?
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Last edited by verklingen; 06-12-2007 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:44 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I said in another thread that a dog can only chase and tear off so many tails before he realizes he's hurting himself. The same principle applies to what JcP is saying. Some people perceive chasing and gnawing at their tail as pleasurable, but it's only a matter of time before they realize it gets them nowhere. The change in perception is innevitable because change is the only constant.
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Old 06-24-2007, 09:24 PM   #39 (permalink)
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i honestly am a little confused by what you said.
but i think we dwell on negativity cause we all feel like we should be able to control it and keep the negative out of our path.
we always think what could we have done better?
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