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Old 05-09-2008, 07:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Higher Power

So lately I've been having trouble deciding what I 'am' regarding religion. I was raised lutherin. Not severly, but pray to God when you don't have trouble and go to church when you have time kinda thing. I dont know what to think. Am I athiest, do I believe in God? Do I just believe that here is something out there that created us, that hasn't yet shown itself, and we know nothing about it? When people say they saw 'jesus' is it because they believe in it so much that thier mind tricks them, or because it really happened? what are your thoughts? what happens when we die? Is church just a way for the pope to grab cash?
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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figure yourself out first before you go throwing anything else you're not sure about into the mix.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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thats why I made this so that I could get other people thoughts, and maybe perfectly viable thoughts that I wouldnt have thought of. Other things to make me think about BEFORE I make a decision, but I have a feeling it will be a long time before I do make it.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
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dont know if i can word this so you can understand what im getting at but..when i think about what religion is all about i think it's a way to ease mankinds mind. back in the day people needed to cling to some god because they didnt have science or other ways to prove this or that like we have nowadays. less and less people these days are fatihfully practicing religion I believe because it's harder to have faith in what that book says when you have mountains of scientific data disputing it. this is one of those threads that could go on forever and never have a conclusion because none of us really know....we're just speculating or repeating something we read or saw on tv or heard someone say. for me personally, all i have to do is think of the vastness of outerspace the quantity of material and the beauty in it and i come to a quick conclusion on if there is a higher power or not.
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
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you're already almost there. Just admit to yourself that god is not there. christianity or any other big religion or small religion for that matter are not true. We don't know what made the universe.. But I do know that whatever it was has nothing to do with this one planet in this one galaxy.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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My two cents, possibly three.

Religion is bunk. Absolutely made up, time and time again. I mean, the most recent "religion" scientology, was made up in the last 50 years. Just fabricated by a nut named L Ron Hubbard. A nut that sat around wondering how to get rich, so he decided to create a religion focused on science fiction geeks. And, now, nuts like Tom Cruise swear by it. Ask famous science fiction writer and former L Ron Hubbard friend, Harlan Ellison how Scientology came about - he'll tell you that LRH was literally just sitting around, joking, wondering how to get really rich.

Mormons-completely made up by Joseph Smith, and now...

ALL religions are made up by somebody, at sometime, for some reason. Usually to control and to gain wealth. However, they utilize the premise of afterlife, and easying your mind, and faith, and strength, etc. ad nauseum, to make them seem legitimate and useful.

Think about it - what do most religions utilize to keep their sheep from straying? Fear-fear of the Devil, of Hell, of all these awful, awful repercussions if one doesn't believe and practice whatever religion. You don't believe - well you go to hell for eternal damnation? What could induce more fear for people to follow?

ALL religions are man-made concepts. Why would there be so, so many religions if they were all true? They can't be. They can't ALL co-exist and be the ONE true religion. Yet, they all say they do. Think about this - how can this be? It can't. They can't ALL be the one, true religion. It's impossible for a 100 religions to EACH be the one, true relgion. This, alone, negates each religions' claim. Religion is like culture, dependent on the peoples who develop and practice it. Chinese have a different culture, and, huh, a different religion. People in India have a different culture, and gee whiz, another different type of relgion. They also dress differently, have a different language, etc. Not surprising they develop a different religion. The American Indians had their own ways and beliefs, and now I personally know Indians who believe in Jesus Christ. They believed in different spirits before, never knew anything about Jesus, get overwhelmed by the white man, and now go to church and pray to Jesus. Makes no sense. Unless religion is learned. I mean - why didn't the Indian ALWAYS believe in Jesus if it was the one, true religion? Why did "God" decide each people and each culture should practice different religions, many of which completely contradict each other? Makes no sense.

Religion is a man-made and learned construct. And, if you notice, it continually evolves.

Okay, that was my three cents...
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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What you said is true. I think churches take advantage of people, and extend the 'truth'. for example the new and old testament... weird how god changed his mind on what was acceptable, and how people knew about his changed mind... i thought god doesnt make mistakes? but still i find it hard to believe there is no higher power. Im pretty sure im nearing towards either that there was a higher power and it died, or there is a higher power and it still controls the universes, but its never going to, or hasnt shown itself.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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i think that being a Catholic Christian is the only way for me...but you may believe that the Unitarian way is the only way for you, or Lutheran, or whatever. i think God put before us many choices, and there isn't 'one' correct way. the choice not to believe was also given to us by God, imo. what 'religion' or 'faith' or 'spiritual journey' we choose isn't as important as the fact that we've chosen a way that leads to Him. anyway, that's my idea of God's master plan.
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Dude, if you already double mind, you gonna come back to god sonner than you think, mark my words.

If you do become atheist, you;ll be a classic "Atheist in foxhole".

Atheists in the Foxholes:
Atheists in foxholes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also contrary to what other ppl suggest; I don't think creater and higher powers are same thing. I was a "atheist" until some experiences blew me away.

Even now I don't really believe in any particular religion, I do believe in higher dimensions/power and that we are in this life to learn some specific lessons.
It could even be said that universe gave you this specific life for its own "broader purpose" and we do seem to have very limited free will. In that case universe can be attributed as a God.
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I've been hearin' a lot about this Allah dude as of late. Maybe you should check him out!
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by anitablaze View Post
So lately I've been having trouble deciding what I 'am' regarding religion. I was raised lutherin. Not severly, but pray to God when you don't have trouble and go to church when you have time kinda thing. I dont know what to think. Am I athiest, do I believe in God? Do I just believe that here is something out there that created us, that hasn't yet shown itself, and we know nothing about it? When people say they saw 'jesus' is it because they believe in it so much that thier mind tricks them, or because it really happened? what are your thoughts? what happens when we die? Is church just a way for the pope to grab cash?
I have to agree with verk to a degree, anitablaze. The reason being is that to me reading this post, you start with giving a brief history of self on the subject. You state that at the point you are uncertain what to think, or basically what to conclude. You ask a couple questions regarding yourself, then gradually get more specific and external.

The questions that we almost all seem to be faced with at some point or another in life are far beyond the religions that we have created in an attempt to answer them. By sifting through the various religions of the world you can see the same similar questions addressed over and over. In that sense each religion is simply a pooling of thoughts and speculations over the answers to these extremely perplexing questions.

So why be any of them? Why not try to just take in and be open to as many perspectives and thoughts on the subject as you can be. Take in as much as you can and from this huge, vast, diverse, pool of knowledge, speculate yourself.

My perspective on some of the questions you asked...

If I believe in God or not is totally dependent on your definition of God.

I think it's entirely possible for the something that created us to have shown it self and be all we know about.

How do you differentiate between seeing something and it being real.

What happens when we die will, imo, probably be what's been happening ad infinitum.

The Church does more than grab money for the pope, but I could see it being part of what it does.



Hmm... I really don't like exclusive/conclusive forms of thought. Gotta think on that more...
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Old 05-11-2008, 01:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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So lately I've been having trouble deciding what I 'am' regarding religion. I was raised lutherin. Not severly, but pray to God when you don't have trouble and go to church when you have time kinda thing. I dont know what to think. Am I athiest, do I believe in God? Do I just believe that here is something out there that created us, that hasn't yet shown itself, and we know nothing about it? When people say they saw 'jesus' is it because they believe in it so much that thier mind tricks them, or because it really happened? what are your thoughts? what happens when we die? Is church just a way for the pope to grab cash?

Its funny you ask that question cuz i had a n.d.e............... .if you wanna hear about it email or msg me.................b ut yes this aint it honey.............:b igjoint:
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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i think that being a Catholic Christian is the only way for me...but you may believe that the Unitarian way is the only way for you, or Lutheran, or whatever. i think God put before us many choices, and there isn't 'one' correct way. the choice not to believe was also given to us by God, imo. what 'religion' or 'faith' or 'spiritual journey' we choose isn't as important as the fact that we've chosen a way that leads to Him. anyway, that's my idea of God's master plan.
Spicoli - your ideas don't counter an important fact - that many, many religions say THEIRS is the one true religion, and that if you don't follow, you are damned. Whether you choose your religion or not, doesn't counter this fact, either. You choose the "wrong" one, you're damned. They all say they're the one true, religion. That theirs is the correct way. You can't just conveniently choose the religion that works for you. Just like you pick out the television set you like, or choose the Republican ideals cause you like what they have to say. If there is one, true religion, all should abide by it, even if they don't like certain things about it.

Not trying to disparage anyone with these remarks, just being blunt.

So, in essence, you have many "choices" of religions, all claiming to be the only true religion - it just can't be. We can't all choose our own religion, which is the one true religion, and have them ALL be the one, true religion.

God is a man-made concept. No, I don't proclaim to understand how we came about, why we are here, etc. But, I don't explain it with God; but I understand humans' need to do so - to claim a higher power for many reasons. It's a damn hard concept to grasp that we will all, one day, not be here anymore. Hard to think you can't exist anymore. Hard to think this all came out randomly. Definitely understand that.

And, I would still be an athiest in a fox-hole, in a dungeon, no matter where. I'd be wasting my time praying to a made-up concept. I KNOW that no religious entity is going to come down and save me. Wonder how many of those no-longer athiests in fox-holes were suddenly saved by Jesus Christ? Or how many devout Christians were saved from that grenade that landed in their fox-hole? None....
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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""Hard to think you can't exist anymore""

What is "Can't exist"?

""I'd be wasting my time praying to a made-up concept. I KNOW that no religious entity is going to come down and save me. Wonder how many of those no-longer athiests in fox-holes were suddenly saved by Jesus Christ? Or how many devout Christians were saved from that grenade that landed in their fox-hole? None.... ""

You are quite right! It is a man made concept. But think about it, much easier to say you don't believe in god and ranting it off on the internet. Would you still say the same when you are in deathbed or in a war. Remember the term was coined by military commander who probably saw a lot of these atheists, praying to god like rats when death was near.

I come from a "atheist" family on my mom side, and my uncle was just like you "funamental atheist" and then he got cancer, had 8 months to live. Imagine what a "fundamentalist atheist" did for remaining 8 months of life. Yes! prayed. No, no christ or buddha came to save him and he knew nobody would come in, but still what he did. Prayed and started phenomenally believing in god.

No god or mortal can save you, because its nature - there has to be end otherwise we are talking about eternal physical life.

What is life: just cuz you got eyes to see the world and awareness and some other physical movements, it is life.


Regarding higher form: here is my 1 cent: We need gut bacteria in our gut to survive (digest food). They live out specific life, doing specifc things, which in turn ensure human beings life. The bacteira can't deviate from their specific role based life, they don't have any free will. Does a individual bacteria in my gut knows that I exist as well and I am live? NO, I don't think so.

Likewise I say human beings maybe living these lives for a specific purpose of higher form (earth, universe?) Just because we can't see the broader picture dosen't mean we are just living a life that came by accident for no purpose.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Wait... where are you guys getting these concepts that aren't man-made from? I'd like some of that shit.

I hate missing out.
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i admit when i was young i was mis-guided into the whole god thing i mean come the fuck on we are multi-cellular beings our souls is just a life process of our cells and someone we form a unitary though which is amazing but i mean this was all an accident i mean when you die you jsut rot in a ground i dont know how it feels but knowing existence then completely losing everything what else could it be and religion should never take over lives if there was a god why would he want people wasting their lives worshipping him...Occham's Razor states that the simpliest solution is most likely the right one...religion was made up to give some peoples lives meaning...out
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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i admit when i was young i was mis-guided into the whole god thing i mean come the fuck on we are multi-cellular beings our souls is just a life process of our cells and somehow we form a unitary though which is amazing but i mean this was all an accident i mean when you die you jsut rot in a ground i dont know how it feels but knowing existence then completely losing everything what else could it be and religion should never take over lives if there was a god why would he want people wasting their lives worshipping him...Occham's Razor states that the simpliest solution is most likely the right one...religion was made up to give some peoples lives meaning...out
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Old 05-14-2008, 03:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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""i mean when you die you jsut rot in a ground i dont know how it feels but knowing existence then completely losing everything what else could it be and religion should never take over lives if there was a god why would he want people wasting their lives worshipping him...""

Why would you wanna do anything in life anyway as its gonna end for sure someday??

In its simplest form, IMO God is simply a phenomenon ppl developed to try to proove after life and higher power and then vested interests took over and converted religions into divisions and mass control phenomenon. Its just human nature - we are made to fight and we will use any excuse to fight and become dominant, be it religion, speculative fear of Weapons of Mass Destruction, my god is superior to yours.....

The problem with God concept is we will never understand the broad picture but If I were to videotape my whole life and then show it it you, you'll see many moments which have no explanations, which even after closest scrunity can't be put down to coincidence and that's why I have a strong belief in higher power, call it god, call it demon, call it nothingness
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:28 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Spicoli - your ideas don't counter an important fact - that many, many religions say THEIRS is the one true religion, and that if you don't follow, you are damned. Whether you choose your religion or not, doesn't counter this fact, either. You choose the "wrong" one, you're damned. They all say they're the one true, religion. That theirs is the correct way. You can't just conveniently choose the religion that works for you. Just like you pick out the television set you like, or choose the Republican ideals cause you like what they have to say. If there is one, true religion, all should abide by it, even if they don't like certain things about it.

Not trying to disparage anyone with these remarks, just being blunt.

So, in essence, you have many "choices" of religions, all claiming to be the only true religion - it just can't be. We can't all choose our own religion, which is the one true religion, and have them ALL be the one, true religion.

God is a man-made concept. No, I don't proclaim to understand how we came about, why we are here, etc. But, I don't explain it with God; but I understand humans' need to do so - to claim a higher power for many reasons. It's a damn hard concept to grasp that we will all, one day, not be here anymore. Hard to think you can't exist anymore. Hard to think this all came out randomly. Definitely understand that.

And, I would still be an athiest in a fox-hole, in a dungeon, no matter where. I'd be wasting my time praying to a made-up concept. I KNOW that no religious entity is going to come down and save me. Wonder how many of those no-longer athiests in fox-holes were suddenly saved by Jesus Christ? Or how many devout Christians were saved from that grenade that landed in their fox-hole? None....

Arguing this point is futile. I believe what I believe and you don't. Simply put.
However, about your grenade in the foxhole comment:

Free will provides for all the anarchy on this planet. Jesus cannot override our free will. He cannot make you believe, or have faith in Him, or make you Love Him. We all have that choice.
Jesus saves our soul from the Devil. In the next life. Not from a foxhole in a war that has no God in it whatsoever.
And by the way- You don't KNOW shit about what's going to happen when you die.
Give me your proof of all knowing, please.
Well, I guess your non-belief will prove that true, so never mind.
Meaning, He can't save you if you don't believe.

BTW- you can choose the religion that suits you and your beliefs. people do it everyday.
my religion of choice is the one for me. there is not another path for ME.
Ultimately, i believe in ONE God.
There are a few aspects of my religion that I do not agree with, that does not make me less of a Catholic or less of a Christian. It makes me a human being with an opinion, and choices.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:44 AM   #20 (permalink)
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He can't save you if you don't believe.
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