End Of The World Has Already Begun - Page 3

verklingen · 11-13-2009, 01:57 PM

have you heard about vertical farming sir ex? Vertical farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia i think we'll try methods like this before letting the world starve.

what do you mean by saying the climate is getting "worse?" we are experiencing climate change that's for sure, but it could ultimately be to our benefit. consider for a moment if the climate shifts to bring rain to formerly barren landscapes, places like africa that haven't seen an abundance of plants for millennia. hidden within such soil are the same nutrients that have been depleted elsewhere in areas which are no longer ideal for agriculture. the climate is a fluid medium, it gives and it takes. i think we humans can keep up with its ebb and flow (water availability is also linked to this)

so yes, it may prove a herculean effort to get things set aright in a sustainable way, but when we have a whole world of people willing to survive i don't see any reason to believe it should not, would not or could not be done. technology will lead the way, as always

verklingen · 11-13-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpankyMcLankey

but what happens when we run out of oil? then we'd be fucked.

don't even say it's impossible, because we all know there's not an unlimited supply.

we would be fucked if we ran out of oil right now, but that's not going to happen. better sources of energy will be exploited long before scarcity of oil becomes a problem. there will come a time when people won't be able to get rid of the stuff. i can say this with all certainty because it's already beginning

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

have you heard about vertical farming sir ex? Vertical farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia i think we'll try methods like this before letting the world starve.

Aye I've heard of it. I doubt we'll let the world starve.. just the poor ones who live in poor countries big countries like ours don't give a shit about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

what do you mean by saying the climate is getting "worse?" we are experiencing climate change that's for sure, but it could ultimately be to our benefit. consider for a moment if the climate shifts to bring rain to formerly barren landscapes, places like africa that haven't seen an abundance of plants for millennia. hidden within such soil are the same nutrients that have been depleted elsewhere in areas which are no longer ideal for agriculture.

Ok here's the thing about Africa (and places like). Of the land that is agriculturally viable, two thirds of it already suffer severe nutrient deficiency. The agricultural practices aren't being changed for reasons of money and ownership, so as far as that goes we can agree that the situation is just getting worse.

But you're talking about the climate. Well I suppose you're right, globally I don't know if the climate is getting 'worse'. It is definitely changing that is certain. But in specific regard to Africa (and places like :P) where drought exists, the situation is getting worse. The areas of drought have been expanding steadily for years, again at an exponential rate.

Yes, it may be possible for the climate to shift unexpectedly and suddenly start raining down on all these areas that have been barren for, as you say, millennia. Unfortunately what you're mistaken of is that Africa's soil - its desert especially - are naturally low in nutrients. If it did start raining it would still take many generations for the land to replenish itself enough for agricultural means, even with human assistance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

the climate is a fluid medium, it gives and it takes. i think we humans can keep up with its ebb and flow (water availability is also linked to this)

I don't think it's about humans keeping up any more. I think it's about everything else keeping up with us.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

we would be fucked if we ran out of oil right now, but that's not going to happen. better sources of energy will be exploited long before scarcity of oil becomes a problem. there will come a time when people won't be able to get rid of the stuff. i can say this with all certainty because it's already beginning

I hope that's possible, it's a pretty large hurdle. The fundamental means of production in our civilization are currently dependant on fossil fuels.

verklingen · 11-13-2009, 02:46 PM

i'm with you man, i agree that the degree of urgency does not yet match the reality of our situation. but i believe the need to do something about it for the sake of everyone on our planet is in the process of being realized, more and more with the passing months. is this a challenge? yes. but i don't see that challenge spelling peril. if you ask me our species faced much greater peril in the last ice age, and the same concepts will see us through this: namely cooperation and technology. all around us the pressures are in place to find solutions. we're already seeking them, and that drive can only become stronger

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 02:48 PM

For sure man, you gotta try. I ain't studying physics for nothing.

Roach · 11-13-2009, 06:10 PM

by the time we do run out of oil, alternatives will have replaced the 37 percent of american energy that oil now provides.

probably by some form of a solar charged system.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 06:13 PM

Oil = a lot more than 'american energy'

Plastic comes to mind.

Roach · 11-13-2009, 06:26 PM

heaven forbid we should ever have to recycle.

or live without plastic.

The bulk of oil consumed is on production of energy.

not toasting french fries.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 06:55 PM

The bulk of production itself is dependent on fossil fuels.

The process of recycling as well.

As far as the manufacturing goes, it takes roughly the same amount of energy to create something out of recycled materials as it does raw materials. The step of extracting the materials is skipped, but the recycled material still has to be reprocessed, and its always at a large loss; most of the recycled material can't be salvaged and is destroyed in the process.

Living without plastic will be what we'll have to do unless we find some other way to produce something similar.

The prospect of living without plastic at this point is pretty like.. insane when you look at all the things that need petrochemicals. The electronics industry would implode. Not to mention that we currently need it just to transport everything.

Yer wrong about where most oil consumption goes as well. The majority of it is actually used for transportation. Most of the rest is used for yeah, energy, but not household energy. The majority of what's left is used in the industrial/manufacturing sectors.

Industry is basically the framework of our civilization. Everything we have depends on production because virtually everything we have now is manufactured. And the whole bloody industry runs on fossil fuels, its was born of the discovery of fossil fuels. It exists because of fossil fuels.

What you're proposing is the equivalent of taking car with a diesel engine and then trying to swap out that engine for a new, water powered one, except the car is running and full of people and you can't turn it off.

Roach · 11-13-2009, 07:53 PM

I suppose some idiot like Roach will propose we use hemp oil for all our plastic/processing needs like he did 10 years ago.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 07:55 PM

It's about as realistic as relying on recycling

Roach · 11-13-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Industry is basically the framework of our civilization

The world civilization, perhaps. But definately not America.

maybe back in the 60's friend.

not since.

We've been constantly exporting those "industrial" jobs for as long as I can remember...and that's a fair while.

In a field I specialize in.

Industry/manufacturing in America is seriously F U C K E D .
Has been for decades.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 08:02 PM

Right, and the only reason that these other new and more specialized industries exist is because heavy industry and manufacturing continues to exist. If those ones cease to function properly, so will the rest.

José · 11-13-2009, 08:16 PM

before the population knows we are low on oil(whether it's in 5 or 100 years) the military will be the first to start hording it.

Roach · 11-13-2009, 08:35 PM

past tense.

heavy industry is dead.

industry is dead.

America is dead.

Economist's View: The Decline in Manufacturing Jobs

For the first time since the industrial revolution, fewer than 10% of American workers are now employed in manufacturing. And since perhaps half of the workers in a typical manufacturing firm are involved in service-type jobs, such as design, distribution and financial planning, the true share of workers making things you can drop on your toe may be only 5%. ... Our figure of 10% comes from dividing the number of manufacturing jobs—just over 14m, say the latest figures—by an estimated total workforce (including the self-employed, part-timers and the armed forces) of 147m. In 1970, around 25% of American workers were in manufacturing. The share of manufacturing has also been falling in all other developed economies since 1970...

that exerpt was from 05 and it's only gotten worse.

look what country lost the most jobs.

I don't know where you go to school @ but you might want to look into their politics as to what their teaching you.

clearly Britian and the US have exported jobs way in excess of a "normal" "collar" change.

Sir-Ex · 11-13-2009, 09:12 PM

You're missing the point. I am aware of the redistribution of labor and new business. I don't see why that's important when the problem facing us is a global issue. America exported much of its heavy industry to other countries but it is still dependent on it. If all that heavy industry exported to the rest of the world failed, the existing industries in America would also fail. On the surface something like, say the fashion industry, might seem totally unrelated, but it absolutely requires the raw material generated from heavy industry (whether it's outsourced or not). You need to manufacture the clothing, create advertisements and satellites that fly in space transmitting them, build the venues, transport the people, distribute the clothing, etc. You can make a similar observation of any other industry like that.

Every industry that exists relies on heavy industry. To say that heavy industry is dead is to in essence declare all industry dead.

ChiefBongWater · 11-14-2009, 12:14 AM

America has a lot of oil. we're just not allowed to dig for it.

And to the op. youre right , the sun is gonna die out eventually, probably some billion years away but it will burn out. Every star has a life cycle and dies eventually. I forget the order of it but i know theres red giant when the star expands drastically and temp raises then i think white dwarf when it shrinks down n dies.

11-13-2009, 01:57 PM	#41 (permalink)
verklingen Radical Dreamer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: texas Posts: 8,005 Thanks: 811 Thanked 1,491 Times in 946 Posts	have you heard about vertical farming sir ex? Vertical farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia i think we'll try methods like this before letting the world starve. what do you mean by saying the climate is getting "worse?" we are experiencing climate change that's for sure, but it could ultimately be to our benefit. consider for a moment if the climate shifts to bring rain to formerly barren landscapes, places like africa that haven't seen an abundance of plants for millennia. hidden within such soil are the same nutrients that have been depleted elsewhere in areas which are no longer ideal for agriculture. the climate is a fluid medium, it gives and it takes. i think we humans can keep up with its ebb and flow (water availability is also linked to this) so yes, it may prove a herculean effort to get things set aright in a sustainable way, but when we have a whole world of people willing to survive i don't see any reason to believe it should not, would not or could not be done. technology will lead the way, as always __________________ “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” rip matt

11-13-2009, 02:46 PM	#45 (permalink)
verklingen Radical Dreamer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: texas Posts: 8,005 Thanks: 811 Thanked 1,491 Times in 946 Posts	i'm with you man, i agree that the degree of urgency does not yet match the reality of our situation. but i believe the need to do something about it for the sake of everyone on our planet is in the process of being realized, more and more with the passing months. is this a challenge? yes. but i don't see that challenge spelling peril. if you ask me our species faced much greater peril in the last ice age, and the same concepts will see us through this: namely cooperation and technology. all around us the pressures are in place to find solutions. we're already seeking them, and that drive can only become stronger __________________ “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” rip matt

11-13-2009, 02:48 PM	#46 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	For sure man, you gotta try. I ain't studying physics for nothing. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-13-2009, 06:10 PM	#47 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,166 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	by the time we do run out of oil, alternatives will have replaced the 37 percent of american energy that oil now provides. probably by some form of a solar charged system. Last edited by Roach; 11-13-2009 at 06:13 PM.

11-13-2009, 06:13 PM	#48 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	Oil = a lot more than 'american energy' Plastic comes to mind. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-13-2009, 06:26 PM	#49 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,166 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	heaven forbid we should ever have to recycle. or live without plastic. The bulk of oil consumed is on production of energy. not toasting french fries.

11-13-2009, 06:55 PM	#50 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	The bulk of production itself is dependent on fossil fuels. The process of recycling as well. As far as the manufacturing goes, it takes roughly the same amount of energy to create something out of recycled materials as it does raw materials. The step of extracting the materials is skipped, but the recycled material still has to be reprocessed, and its always at a large loss; most of the recycled material can't be salvaged and is destroyed in the process. Living without plastic will be what we'll have to do unless we find some other way to produce something similar. The prospect of living without plastic at this point is pretty like.. insane when you look at all the things that need petrochemicals. The electronics industry would implode. Not to mention that we currently need it just to transport everything. Yer wrong about where most oil consumption goes as well. The majority of it is actually used for transportation. Most of the rest is used for yeah, energy, but not household energy. The majority of what's left is used in the industrial/manufacturing sectors. Industry is basically the framework of our civilization. Everything we have depends on production because virtually everything we have now is manufactured. And the whole bloody industry runs on fossil fuels, its was born of the discovery of fossil fuels. It exists because of fossil fuels. What you're proposing is the equivalent of taking car with a diesel engine and then trying to swap out that engine for a new, water powered one, except the car is running and full of people and you can't turn it off. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-13-2009, 07:53 PM	#51 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,166 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	I suppose some idiot like Roach will propose we use hemp oil for all our plastic/processing needs like he did 10 years ago.

11-13-2009, 07:55 PM	#52 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	It's about as realistic as relying on recycling __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-13-2009, 08:02 PM	#54 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	Right, and the only reason that these other new and more specialized industries exist is because heavy industry and manufacturing continues to exist. If those ones cease to function properly, so will the rest. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-13-2009, 08:16 PM	#55 (permalink)
José YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,363 Thanks: 62 Thanked 147 Times in 72 Posts	before the population knows we are low on oil(whether it's in 5 or 100 years) the military will be the first to start hording it.

11-13-2009, 08:35 PM	#56 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,166 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	past tense. heavy industry is dead. industry is dead. America is dead. Economist's View: The Decline in Manufacturing Jobs For the first time since the industrial revolution, fewer than 10% of American workers are now employed in manufacturing. And since perhaps half of the workers in a typical manufacturing firm are involved in service-type jobs, such as design, distribution and financial planning, the true share of workers making things you can drop on your toe may be only 5%. ... Our figure of 10% comes from dividing the number of manufacturing jobs—just over 14m, say the latest figures—by an estimated total workforce (including the self-employed, part-timers and the armed forces) of 147m. In 1970, around 25% of American workers were in manufacturing. The share of manufacturing has also been falling in all other developed economies since 1970... that exerpt was from 05 and it's only gotten worse. look what country lost the most jobs. I don't know where you go to school @ but you might want to look into their politics as to what their teaching you. clearly Britian and the US have exported jobs way in excess of a "normal" "collar" change. Attached Images Last edited by Roach; 11-13-2009 at 08:39 PM.

11-13-2009, 09:12 PM	#57 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 11,413 Thanks: 1,725 Thanked 3,816 Times in 2,256 Posts	You're missing the point. I am aware of the redistribution of labor and new business. I don't see why that's important when the problem facing us is a global issue. America exported much of its heavy industry to other countries but it is still dependent on it. If all that heavy industry exported to the rest of the world failed, the existing industries in America would also fail. On the surface something like, say the fashion industry, might seem totally unrelated, but it absolutely requires the raw material generated from heavy industry (whether it's outsourced or not). You need to manufacture the clothing, create advertisements and satellites that fly in space transmitting them, build the venues, transport the people, distribute the clothing, etc. You can make a similar observation of any other industry like that. Every industry that exists relies on heavy industry. To say that heavy industry is dead is to in essence declare all industry dead. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

11-14-2009, 12:14 AM	#58 (permalink)
ChiefBongWater a lot of grease Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,055 Thanks: 134 Thanked 315 Times in 223 Posts	America has a lot of oil. we're just not allowed to dig for it. And to the op. youre right , the sun is gonna die out eventually, probably some billion years away but it will burn out. Every star has a life cycle and dies eventually. I forget the order of it but i know theres red giant when the star expands drastically and temp raises then i think white dwarf when it shrinks down n dies. __________________ Straight No Chaser Bridgez, Boobs, Beer

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