so whats the deal native americans

Parallax · 08-16-2010, 04:10 PM

The situation with native americans confuses me. The Europeans conquered these lands, and now were trying to be all friendly and nice to them, setting up reservations and not making them pay taxes, etc out of guilt. Meanwhile the natives are always lobbying and protesting and demanding more reservations and more privileges. Even when they get their way, these token gestures do nothing really, the natives are trying to resist change and keep living as their ancestors did, yet this is impossible because the land is not the same as it was when their ancestors were around, there's too many cities and too little game to hunt. Plus technology is available that they don't have to live like that anyway. Are they going to keep whining that the white man stole their land and clinging to their old ways forever until they eventually die out? Why bother?

SmokeaJoint · 08-16-2010, 04:49 PM

I guess they feel nostalgic about the old ways? Some appeal to the simplicity of tribe life and buffalo hunting?

Shit man, they make total bank off the white man. Its call Las Vegas! I call that payback, plus some.

**SageTree** · 08-16-2010, 05:35 PM

Have you ever talked with a Native American?

I think the assessment 'out of guilt' is incorrect.

I feel that it's a responsibility to 'fix' the errors of European conquering.

In today's terms what happened would be considered a genocide.

SmokeaJoint · 08-16-2010, 06:01 PM

I know that we took over Native American land, forced them out of their homes and lands, killed or let perish people(awkward sentence structure, i know) in numbers deserving of a major war and all that. But c'mon! That was soooo long ago. Just let bygones be bygones. Everyone (meaning race/nationality) has done their share of evil. Nobody is innocent, nobody got it worse or better than anyone else.

**SageTree** · 08-16-2010, 06:25 PM

So I'm going to mark you down for a 'no', I've never met a Native, smoke a joint

Shits real man and I live in a town with 50% First Nations. The effects of systematic oppression are alive and well here, although it gets better for some bands rather than others, since they have tribal councils that represent different groups. So I figure it is likely the same way in the States.

When I lived in PA it was no thang, the mountains were named for a local tribe and that is all I knew. But when I came to Canada and learned about residential schools, which also existed in the States, I cried at how people can treat each other. Some people have went on to be lawyers and doctors because of them, but so many more have been left with trauma generation after generation.

Read about the trail of tear man. There isn't a by gone worth considering in my book. That shit was fucked up.

NativeSonKY · 08-16-2010, 06:25 PM

Just popped in for a minute - was on and afk from a raid in EQ2...this kind of, well, let's say it's my first time feeling a *little* unwelcome here, so far. My great grandfather was a full-blooded Cherokee, and though I am only 1/8 myself, I still feel very attached to my ancestors. Any Native American does. SageTree seems to have more sensitivity to the issue at hand - the right of Natives to reject "wanting to be like whites", which hasn't changed in over 200 years. I could argue that the benefits we have nowadays aren't really that important, i.e., let's take longer lifespans, for instance. Sure, we live longer now, and modern medicines and doctors make that possible. But do we live any *better*? I've spent quite a few nights in tents, sleeping on the ground, and never felt as if I missed a bed. I've cooked outside, albeit canned/packaged food, but if I had grown up "Native" I could have trapped or shot my own food. And if we don't really live any better, why care about living any longer? I've almost died 3 times so far, and I have always felt as if I've done enough on this earth to go anytime and not have missed anything.

I don't have time to go into the whole "casino" thing right now, and I'm not sure I'd even start that here. I'll just say that Native Americans have every right to live as they choose, and to bitch about quite a few things, too. Just one semester of Native American Literature might give you a better understanding. I gotta get back, for now.

Peace!

SmokeaJoint · 08-16-2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTree

So I'm going to mark you down for a 'no', I've never met a Native, smoke a joint

Shits real man and I live in a town with 50% First Nations. The effects of systematic oppression are alive and well here, although it gets better for some bands rather than others, since they have tribal councils that represent different groups. So I figure it is likely the same way in the States.

When I lived in PA it was no thang, the mountains were named for a local tribe and that is all I knew. But when I came to Canada and learned about residential schools, which also existed in the States, I cried at how people can treat each other. Some people have went on to be lawyers and doctors because of them, but so many more have been left with trauma generation after generation.

Read about the trail of tear man. There isn't a by gone worth considering in my book. That shit was fucked up.

Yeah man, no disrespect to the Natives for sure. What happened was horrible, and history's examples, especially in this case, should never be forgotten. However, it was so long ago, there's really no retribution that hasn't been paid forward. I hate how humans can act towards one another, but that's not a new thing. It happens inter racially, it happens outside of races as well. Just humans being their selfish, disgusting selves. Sometimes I loathe my species...

Parallax · 08-16-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NativeSonKY

Just popped in for a minute - was on and afk from a raid in EQ2...this kind of, well, let's say it's my first time feeling a *little* unwelcome here, so far. My great grandfather was a full-blooded Cherokee, and though I am only 1/8 myself, I still feel very attached to my ancestors. Any Native American does. SageTree seems to have more sensitivity to the issue at hand - the right of Natives to reject "wanting to be like whites", which hasn't changed in over 200 years. I could argue that the benefits we have nowadays aren't really that important, i.e., let's take longer lifespans, for instance. Sure, we live longer now, and modern medicines and doctors make that possible. But do we live any *better*? I've spent quite a few nights in tents, sleeping on the ground, and never felt as if I missed a bed. I've cooked outside, albeit canned/packaged food, but if I had grown up "Native" I could have trapped or shot my own food. And if we don't really live any better, why care about living any longer? I've almost died 3 times so far, and I have always felt as if I've done enough on this earth to go anytime and not have missed anything.

I don't have time to go into the whole "casino" thing right now, and I'm not sure I'd even start that here. I'll just say that Native Americans have every right to live as they choose, and to bitch about quite a few things, too. Just one semester of Native American Literature might give you a better understanding. I gotta get back, for now.

Peace!

camping is fun for a couple of days if you have a tent, canned food and other things that aren't possible without technology, but picture living like that for your entire life, using only stone age technology. what do you do when you're sick or break a leg or can't find any game or fish for whatever reason, what do you do when your wife's giving birth and is having difficulties, or you get attacked by wild animals, who is going to protect when some hostile tribe comes to harrass yours (lets not pretend that before the europeans came that the place was a carefree, peaceful paradise). living off the land can very unforgiving even with modern technology, picture how it is when all you have to work with is sticks, stones, bones, and sinew. modern european-style living has its drawbacks too, but can you really say that the native way is better?

i havent interacted with a lot of natives, although i did know a half native guy back in toronto, he wasnt living the native lifestyle, just another suburban kid. i currently live in thunder bay and i see a lot of native people in the city who dont really live the native way, dont really live the modern way, all they do is collect welfare checks and ask people on the street for money to spend on booze (not all of them, of course). ive only been here for a couple weeks and ive only left the university campus maybe 20 times to get food, and i've been approached three or four times by three or four different native guys asking for money. its pathetic. the only way one can improve their situation is to do something about it not sit around and whine. here in canada natives get all sorts of benefits, they don't have to pay tax and they get free education iirc, why are so many not taking advantage of this? change is inevitable, and refusing to adapt will not do you any good.

another point id like to add is that when the europeans first came the natives were quick to trade for all sorts of white man's goodies, horses, guns, knives, pots/pans, medicine, all sorts of things. now they say they reject these things, while at the same enjoying the comforts of living in a house made of bricks and mortar, access to health care, access to food without having to hunt or trap it and so on. im trying to understand but i cant.

finally, i agree that it was cruel to force the natives to give up their kids to go to residential schools, but is it not also cruel to force their kids to live a life where they aren't sure whether they'll food to eat or get cared for when they are sick or protected from danger, and to deny them education, when these things are readily available?

NativeSonKY · 08-17-2010, 05:12 AM

I'm just sad - and I have to go to work right now at my part-time, minimum wage job in an industry I've worked almost 32 yers in - have a great day y'all I'll see ya tonight. Tuesdays are our long days.

Peace!

**SageTree** · 08-17-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharm Girl

if u did really get to know a few including a few elders, and a grandmother-no doubt in my mind, you'd feel and see things a whole lot differently----

100% When I moved to Vancouver and then up here in the central interior, I have had my eyes opened to so many things.

But I'll tell you this. Many of those things are good as well. The men and women I work with are First Nations and all I can say is I thought English humour was dry.... the jokes of the folks I work with take subtly to a whole new level!

I'm happy to be here in Carrier/Sekani Lands, honoured that is. There are ways of knowing things and touching the divine that I've experienced here, it's changed my life forever.

People are really hard on the Native situation, but I just don't think people know.

When James Cook sailed into the Burrard inlet which is now Vancouver, there were MORE people in that little Ocean valley that in London! I think 'they' were doing just fine with out the "we's" opinion.

My favorite thing. Look up how the legislature is run in the Northwest Territory. Just type in the name NWT and go to Wiki and look at the gov't section. Its a no party system called a Consensus govt which is a really cool idea and something we can all learn from.

Co-Existing Truth,
Sage

The Rev · 08-17-2010, 08:13 AM

We have a common statement for things like 9/11, the Holocaust, etc.: "Never Forget." I'm not a Native, but I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines when they refuse to just "let it go."

The Rev

**SageTree** · 08-17-2010, 08:24 AM

And the heavenly chorus came down from above singing glory to Rev in the highest and peace on earth, AMEN!!

hijabihippie · 08-17-2010, 08:44 AM

The past has formed the present.
Let bygones be bygones? I don't think Japanese Americans who were put in internment camps during WWII solely because they were of Japanese descent, the vast majority being loyal citizens, would agree. I suggest reading John Okada's book No-No Boy. Also, to people who survived the Nazi Holocaust, the German government paid restitution. Not enough, in my opinion, but they get points for trying to do the right thing. The African American community has experienced lynching, theft of property, and racial cleansing. I suggest watching the films Rosewood & Banished, available for viewing online at www.pbs.org. In my opinion, "No justice, no peace." This is borne out, I believe, by the conviction of Byron de la Beckwith for the murder of Medgar Evers. It took a second trial, but they got the racist bastard. Hanging would have been too good for him. Mr. Evers' widow now has peace.

"Justice delayed is justice denied."
--William E. Gladstone

SmokeaJoint · 08-17-2010, 08:49 AM

What racial injustice has the White Man been made to suffer? I can't think of any off the top.

The Rev · 08-17-2010, 09:00 AM

You ever see "Gangs of New York"? Everyone get's their turn being shit on, eventually. One man's white guy is another man's dirty mick.

The Rev

hijabihippie · 08-17-2010, 09:09 AM

Back in the 1800s the Irish were not considered to be white.

http://www.education.ne.gov/SS/irish/unit_2.html

SmokeaJoint · 08-17-2010, 10:15 AM

I know there's something the whiteys put up with, the point I'm making is we all get a shitty time, so we all should stop complaining and move on. The past is great so we can glean it's lessons, as in the case of the Native Americans, but jeez let it go, ancient history.

Sugar420 · 08-17-2010, 11:09 AM

this thread makes me mad in exactly the same way as the thread about how black people should simply "get over it" and quit being low-class niggers. as sage said, the systematic oppression never really ended

SmokeaJoint · 08-17-2010, 11:10 AM

Well, what is there to do? I mean, its not like anyone can go back and change what happened. All retributions have been made accordingly. What else is there but to get the fuck over it? Serious question.

kamikazi89 · 08-17-2010, 11:24 AM

i'm pretty sure the department of the interior own all the land rights, they sorta let them live there semi-autonomously,..the only one i've ever been too isn't federally recognized it's the only place that comes close to being what it was like way back when..

europeans are adjusting to thier new role, it's going to take some time..please be paitient

08-16-2010, 04:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,739 Thanks: 160 Thanked 590 Times in 318 Posts	so whats the deal native americans The situation with native americans confuses me. The Europeans conquered these lands, and now were trying to be all friendly and nice to them, setting up reservations and not making them pay taxes, etc out of guilt. Meanwhile the natives are always lobbying and protesting and demanding more reservations and more privileges. Even when they get their way, these token gestures do nothing really, the natives are trying to resist change and keep living as their ancestors did, yet this is impossible because the land is not the same as it was when their ancestors were around, there's too many cities and too little game to hunt. Plus technology is available that they don't have to live like that anyway. Are they going to keep whining that the white man stole their land and clinging to their old ways forever until they eventually die out? Why bother? __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

08-16-2010, 05:35 PM	#3 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	Have you ever talked with a Native American? I think the assessment 'out of guilt' is incorrect. I feel that it's a responsibility to 'fix' the errors of European conquering. In today's terms what happened would be considered a genocide. __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

08-16-2010, 06:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	So I'm going to mark you down for a 'no', I've never met a Native, smoke a joint Shits real man and I live in a town with 50% First Nations. The effects of systematic oppression are alive and well here, although it gets better for some bands rather than others, since they have tribal councils that represent different groups. So I figure it is likely the same way in the States. When I lived in PA it was no thang, the mountains were named for a local tribe and that is all I knew. But when I came to Canada and learned about residential schools, which also existed in the States, I cried at how people can treat each other. Some people have went on to be lawyers and doctors because of them, but so many more have been left with trauma generation after generation. Read about the trail of tear man. There isn't a by gone worth considering in my book. That shit was fucked up. __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

08-16-2010, 06:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
NativeSonKY YaHookan Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 102 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 120 Thanked 59 Times in 41 Posts	Just popped in for a minute - was on and afk from a raid in EQ2...this kind of, well, let's say it's my first time feeling a little unwelcome here, so far. My great grandfather was a full-blooded Cherokee, and though I am only 1/8 myself, I still feel very attached to my ancestors. Any Native American does. SageTree seems to have more sensitivity to the issue at hand - the right of Natives to reject "wanting to be like whites", which hasn't changed in over 200 years. I could argue that the benefits we have nowadays aren't really that important, i.e., let's take longer lifespans, for instance. Sure, we live longer now, and modern medicines and doctors make that possible. But do we live any better? I've spent quite a few nights in tents, sleeping on the ground, and never felt as if I missed a bed. I've cooked outside, albeit canned/packaged food, but if I had grown up "Native" I could have trapped or shot my own food. And if we don't really live any better, why care about living any longer? I've almost died 3 times so far, and I have always felt as if I've done enough on this earth to go anytime and not have missed anything. I don't have time to go into the whole "casino" thing right now, and I'm not sure I'd even start that here. I'll just say that Native Americans have every right to live as they choose, and to bitch about quite a few things, too. Just one semester of Native American Literature might give you a better understanding. I gotta get back, for now. Peace! __________________ ☮NativeSonKY☮ Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein

08-17-2010, 05:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
NativeSonKY YaHookan Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 102 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 120 Thanked 59 Times in 41 Posts	I'm just sad - and I have to go to work right now at my part-time, minimum wage job in an industry I've worked almost 32 yers in - have a great day y'all I'll see ya tonight. Tuesdays are our long days. Peace! __________________ ☮NativeSonKY☮ Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein

08-17-2010, 08:13 AM	#11 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,860 Thanks: 5,012 Thanked 5,416 Times in 2,862 Posts	We have a common statement for things like 9/11, the Holocaust, etc.: "Never Forget." I'm not a Native, but I'm guessing they're thinking along those lines when they refuse to just "let it go." The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

08-17-2010, 08:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	And the heavenly chorus came down from above singing glory to Rev in the highest and peace on earth, AMEN!! __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

08-17-2010, 08:44 AM	#13 (permalink)
hijabihippie YaHookan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,481 Thanks: 1,152 Thanked 655 Times in 515 Posts	The past has formed the present. Let bygones be bygones? I don't think Japanese Americans who were put in internment camps during WWII solely because they were of Japanese descent, the vast majority being loyal citizens, would agree. I suggest reading John Okada's book No-No Boy. Also, to people who survived the Nazi Holocaust, the German government paid restitution. Not enough, in my opinion, but they get points for trying to do the right thing. The African American community has experienced lynching, theft of property, and racial cleansing. I suggest watching the films Rosewood & Banished, available for viewing online at www.pbs.org. In my opinion, "No justice, no peace." This is borne out, I believe, by the conviction of Byron de la Beckwith for the murder of Medgar Evers. It took a second trial, but they got the racist bastard. Hanging would have been too good for him. Mr. Evers' widow now has peace. "Justice delayed is justice denied." --William E. Gladstone Last edited by hijabihippie; 08-19-2010 at 07:40 AM.

08-17-2010, 09:00 AM	#15 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,860 Thanks: 5,012 Thanked 5,416 Times in 2,862 Posts	You ever see "Gangs of New York"? Everyone get's their turn being shit on, eventually. One man's white guy is another man's dirty mick. The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

08-17-2010, 09:09 AM	#16 (permalink)
hijabihippie YaHookan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,481 Thanks: 1,152 Thanked 655 Times in 515 Posts	Back in the 1800s the Irish were not considered to be white. http://www.education.ne.gov/SS/irish/unit_2.html Last edited by hijabihippie; 08-22-2010 at 03:39 PM.

08-17-2010, 11:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
Sugar420 Freedom Bird Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,132 Thanks: 39 Thanked 176 Times in 728 Posts	this thread makes me mad in exactly the same way as the thread about how black people should simply "get over it" and quit being low-class niggers. as sage said, the systematic oppression never really ended

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