Question for everyone - Page 3

Geeno · 05-13-2011, 03:07 AM

nothing is more of a metaphor for 'not what we know/imagine (in a given circumstance)'

Cause something is at all times.

The Don · 05-13-2011, 04:59 AM

what is this pseudo philosophy bullshit waves?

**SageTree** · 05-13-2011, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev

Nothing does not.

Nothing exists if there is a concept/form about what it 'is', right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puffman

asking this is like asking to prove that 1 = 1, or that A is A. existence exists because our faculty of perception tells us that it does.

The absurdity was completely intended, trust me.

This question is essentially on the list of unanswerable questions that the Buddha refused to talk about:

Quote:

The Buddha remained silent when asked these fourteen questions. He described them as a net and refused to be drawn into such a net of theories, speculations, and dogmas. He said that it was because he was free of bondage to all theories and dogmas that he had attained liberation. Such speculations, he said, are attended by fever, unease, bewilderment, and suffering, and it is by freeing oneself of them that one achieves liberation.

The fourteen questions imply two basic attitudes toward the world. The Buddha speaks of these two attitudes in his dialogue with Mahakashyapa, when he says that there are two basic views, the view of existence and the view of nonexistence. He said that people are accustomed to think in these terms, and that as long as they remain entangled in these two views they will not attain liberation.

The propositions that the world is eternal, that the world is infinite, that the Tathagatha exists after death, and that the self is independent of the body reflect the view of existence. The propositions that the world is not eternal, that the world is finite, that the Tathagata does not exist after death, and that the self is identical with the body reflect the view of nonexistence. These two views were professed by teachers of other schools during the time of the Buddha. The view of existence is generally the view of the Brahmins; that of nonexistence is generally the view of the materialists and nihilists.

When the Buddha refuses to be drawn into the net of these dogmatic views of existence and nonexistence, he has two things in mind: the ethical consequences of these two views, and the fact that the views of absolute existence and nonexistence do not correspond to the way things really are. The eternalists view this self as permanent and unchanging. When the body dies, this self will not die because the self is by nature unchanging. If that is the case, it does not matter what this body does: actions of the body will not affect the destiny of the self. This view is incompatible with moral responsibility because if the self is eternal and unchanging, it will not be affected by wholesome and unwholesome actions. Similarly, if the self were identical with the body and the self dies along with the body, then it does not matter what the body does. If you believe that existence ends at death, there will be no necessary constraint upon action. But in a situation where things exist through interdependent origination, absolute existence and nonexistence are impossible.

Another example drawn from the fourteen unanswerable questions also shows that the propositions do not correspond to the way things really are. Take the example of the world. According to Buddhist teaching, the world does not exist absolutely or does not exist absolutely in time. The world exists dependent on causes and conditions--ignorance, craving, and clinging. When ignorance, craving, and clinging are present, the world exists; when they are not present, the world ceases to exist. Hence the question of the absolute existence or nonexistence of the world is unanswerable. Existence and nonexistence, taken as absolute ideas, do not apply to things as they really are. This is why the Buddha refuses to agree to absolute statements about the nature of things. He saw that the absolute categories of metaphysics do not apply to things as they really are.

I think it's pretty sound advice, in the 'polite' world of social-gathery we could liken these conversation topics to the old cliche of 'never talk about religion or politics', because it's highly likely to lead to strife of some degree amongst each other.

tedkennedy · 05-13-2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTree

Can you prove that?

the world holds many observable, independently testable and reproducible truths. from my perspective, i am quite sure that the world i live in truly does exist in time and space. i think its a really fucked up and confusing existence, but an existence none the less.

Man in Black · 05-13-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kompressor

Sorry but like pi and the pythagorean theorem, the best things in life are free.

the reason these things aren't revealed to us is because their would be no point to life.

**Mafoo** · 05-13-2011, 10:33 PM

i think this thread just goes to show that language is too vague to be useful in discussing existence.

existence is.

regardless of what you want to say about it.

Mescalito · 05-13-2011, 10:38 PM

I think nothing went to something so it could experience being something, rather than nothing.

When I fuck your mum.. I'm really just fucking a different expression of the same something from nothingness.

[Not directed at anyones mum in particular.. actually directed at all mums.. everywhere]

M

Mescalito · 05-13-2011, 10:55 PM

After further contemplation.. I think 'nothing' exists only because we are something that made it exist. Without something there is nothing and without nothing.. arggh my head hurts.

M

**SageTree** · 05-14-2011, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mafoo

i think this thread just goes to show that language is too vague to be useful in discussing existence.

existence is.

regardless of what you want to say about it.

Pretty much what I've been getting at. The larger Truth here is why we even care to discuss it, imo.

Cerpin Taxt · 05-14-2011, 09:07 PM

Both 'before/yesterday' and 'after/tomorrow' exist as ultimately thoughts in our head, nothing more. All that is is in the present, and no thought is needed to know this, just total awareness.

Can thought forms themselves encompass all that is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mescalito

After further contemplation.. I think 'nothing' exists only because we are something that made it exist. Without something there is nothing and without nothing.. arggh my head hurts.

M

We put thirty spokes together and call it a wheel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the wheel depends.
We turn clay to make a vessel;
But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the vessel depends.
We pierce doors and windows to make a house;
And it is on these spaces where there is nothing that the usefulness of the house depends.
Therefore just as we take advantage of what is, we should recognize the usefulness of what is not

Roach · 05-14-2011, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Can thought forms themselves encompass all that is?

only to the all knowing.

haven't met one yet.

Xil · 05-14-2011, 09:45 PM

if you found some incontrovertible proof that existence exists, that reality is real, and whatnot and so forth (lol)
would it change the way you live?

**SageTree** · 05-15-2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach

even budda was stumped.

Nah man, it's not like that.
He said these conversations take up time we could he using for more constructive things and aren't useful on the journey to enlightenment, that is to say, these weren't the questions or problems the Buddha was trying to solve.

Roach · 05-15-2011, 11:37 PM

that's a cop out, but hey it was only one man's opinion.

Quote:

these conversations take up time we could he using for more constructive things

I agree with that on several topics.

The Don · 05-15-2011, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xil

if you found some incontrovertible proof that existence exists, that reality is real, and whatnot and so forth (lol)
would it change the way you live?

No.

People can get all high and mighty, and ponder this question, but in reality it's pure grade A bullshit though

Qui-Bong Jinn · 05-16-2011, 05:11 AM

Who is to say what is something and what is nothing?

Something could be nothing
or
Nothing could be something.

I exist here and now, but I do not exist in the life of somebody in Russia or China.

**SageTree** · 05-16-2011, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach

that's a cop out, but hey it was only one man's opinion.
I agree with that on several topics.

It's not a cop out....
Buddha was trying to teach people about what suffering is and how we can learn to skillfully deal with it....
And he said that these questions just created more suffering and took away time from what we could be doing instead to create peace in ours and others lives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don

People can get all high and mighty, and ponder this question, but in reality it's pure grade A bullshit though

Basically Don nailed it.

And like Xil said... to paraphrase "What would you do differently if you all of a sudden 'knew', that we existed, if there was/not a God, and things like that...

The value of this conversation ,imo, is to learn about how another thinks and processes their environment...
The fruit of this conversation and ones like it, will never be an answer, but solely a sharing of opinions.
And in that perhaps there are useful tools of communication that can provide a solution to questions that effect how we live.

05-13-2011, 04:59 AM	#42 (permalink)
The Don You follow? Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 11,151 Thanks: 544 Thanked 781 Times in 426 Posts	what is this pseudo philosophy bullshit waves? __________________ I am genuienly sad about my thanks:post ratio

05-13-2011, 10:33 PM	#46 (permalink)
Mafoo nice daze Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the anguish of anticipated transformation Posts: 5,975 Thanks: 3,776 Thanked 2,652 Times in 1,698 Posts	i think this thread just goes to show that language is too vague to be useful in discussing existence. existence is. regardless of what you want to say about it. __________________ PLUR For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return

05-14-2011, 09:45 PM	#52 (permalink)
Xil OD'ing on sobriety Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mizzura Posts: 3,334 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 1,158 Times in 717 Posts	if you found some incontrovertible proof that existence exists, that reality is real, and whatnot and so forth (lol) would it change the way you live? __________________ "we'll show these fascists what a couple of hillbillies can do"

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05-13-2011, 10:38 PM	#47 (permalink)
Mescalito Oneironaut Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,295 Thanks: 868 Thanked 910 Times in 447 Posts	I think nothing went to something so it could experience being something, rather than nothing. When I fuck your mum.. I'm really just fucking a different expression of the same something from nothingness. [Not directed at anyones mum in particular.. actually directed at all mums.. everywhere] M

05-13-2011, 10:55 PM	#48 (permalink)
Mescalito Oneironaut Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,295 Thanks: 868 Thanked 910 Times in 447 Posts	After further contemplation.. I think 'nothing' exists only because we are something that made it exist. Without something there is nothing and without nothing.. arggh my head hurts. M

05-16-2011, 05:11 AM	#56 (permalink)
Qui-Bong Jinn Jedi High Council Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 2,135 Thanks: 911 Thanked 501 Times in 372 Posts	Who is to say what is something and what is nothing? Something could be nothing or Nothing could be something. I exist here and now, but I do not exist in the life of somebody in Russia or China.

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