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Old 05-29-2002, 10:54 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Dr. Greenthumb, here is some facts on the 'right of return."

taken from <a href="http://www.pmwatch.org" target="_blank">www. pmwatch.org</a>

--The Right of Return has a solid legal basis. The United Nations adopted Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948. Paragraph 11 states: "...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." Resolution 194 was affirmed practically every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the U.S. This resolution is further clarified by UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 which reaffirms in Subsection 2, "the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return". Hindering return is an act of aggression which deserves condemnation and/or action by the Security Council. Liability for consequences of violation remains with Israel. UN partition resolution 181 and Israel's later admission to the UN were conditional on acceptance of relevant UN resolutions including 194.


--The Right of Return does not derive its validity merely from UN Resolutions. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 13 reaffirms the right of every individual to leave and return to his country. Moreover, the Principle of Self Determination guarantees, inter alia, the right of ownership and domicile in one's own country. This principle was adopted by the UN in 1947. In 1969 and thereafter, it was explicitly applied to the Palestinian People, including "the legality of the Peoples' struggle for Self-Determination and liberation", (GAOR 2535 (xxiv), 2628 (xxv), 2672 (xxv), 2792 (xxvi)). International law demands that neither occupation nor sovereignty diminish the rights of private ownership. When the Ottomans surrendered in 1920, Palestinian ownership of the land was maintained. The land and property of "the refugees" remains their own and they are entitled to return to it.

--According to a report by Amnesty International last December, 2650 Palestinian houses have been destroyed since 1987 by Israel in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, on the pretext of not having building permission. Further thousands of acres owned by Palestinians have been confiscated to build settlements in the occupied territories in contraventions to the 4th Geneva convention Article 49 stating that the "Occupying Power shall not transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." The AI report is available at: <a href="http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aipub/1999/MDE/51505999.htm" target="_blank">http ://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aipub/1999/MDE/51505999.htm</a>
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Old 05-29-2002, 10:54 PM   #62 (permalink)
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[quote]Originally posted by roach:
<strong>Stay tuned....I waiting to see if we can solve in a few hours what the Arabs and Israelis haven't been able to for 50 ?,100 ?, 2000 ? ...years.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

lol. True. Very True.
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Old 05-30-2002, 07:58 AM   #63 (permalink)
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smokin_ky,

I never said you were wrong, Israel certainly has it's share of skeletons in the closet, as does any democratic country. But there are very few actions that Israel has taken for whatever reason, justified or not, that the U.S. and other countries are not guilty of as well. You want a displaced and opressed native population? how about the Native Americans, most of whom are confined to run-down squalid 'reservations' in abject poverty. Or, maybe the Tibetans, who have had their land occupied and suffered massive losses at the hands of their chinese occupiers. Of all the countries ever to have a refugee chrisis (and beleive me most have) the only real way in which the Palestinians differ is the fact that they have, with limited exceptions, been manipulated, not only by Israel, but also by the Arab states that have and continue refuse to normalize them. They are kept in a perpetual limbo, and are most certainly being used as a political pawn by certain influences. That and these people are blowing themselves up to get their point across. You must ask yourself: Is it morally right to give concessions to people who use this strategy? should we grant further power to those that cultivate this kamikaaze culture, and manipulate the suffering of their own people? There will not be peace until the current (but waning) eletist power structure that does still exist in most arab countries is brought down, and preferably by it's own citizens.

If, on the other hand, Israel is brought to it's knees by terorrism, it is an embossed and sealed invitation to breach one of the main moral values that the west holds dear: DO NOT KILL INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN. This has ALWAYS been a rule of war, not to say it has not been broken, but if we lend legitamacy to the strategy of killing civilians to achieve your end, will it really stop with the palestinians?

I have been to many places in the world, and the government subsidized refugee camps, theough far from the American perception of luxury, it is far from the worst I have seen. Anyone who claims the they are resisting in the only way they can has not seen enoguh of the world. I hold every sympathy for the Palestinians. They are getting fucked not only by Israel, but by many of the Arab states they presume to be their friends. Israel certainly plays it's part, but other influences share the responsibility that has been laid solely upon Israel.
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Old 05-30-2002, 10:49 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Dr. Greenthumb:

Ok, first of all you bring up the US and its native population. You are exactly correct. Want to know the difference between that and what is happening now? International Law. Thats right, its there for everyone. And, had I been alive in the 1800's, i believe that I would have been very much against the American government-claiming God 'willed' them America, and their genocide.

And China...once again you are correct. But is America giving 5 billion dollars of my tax money to them? hmm?? For such a western, prosperous nation, why does Israel need my money to kill of a native population for the past 35 years?

You also speak of Arab nations not normalizing the refugee problem. Excuse me, but why should other arab nations take in a people whose homes and lives were destroyed by Israeli occupiers? what kind of sense does that make? and, once again, not allowing these refugees the right to return, or compensation, has been against UN Law since the Geneva Conference.

Finally, I don't support Suicide bombings, but where was the Israeli peace movement when these events weren't happening? In fact, the only time we hear Israel whine about its Arab neighbors not wanting peace is when the Palestinians refuse to accept the pathetic excuse for land that Israel offers them. And when they get mad, the tears really come out....oh the Arabs are terrorists, ohh they don't want peace. thats bullshit. it was Israel who broke the agreements of the Oslo Occords by continuing its settlement building, not the Arabs.
<a href="http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf" target="_blank">http ://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf</a>

And by the way, quit blaming the victim for the situation. Israel came and took over the partition of land granted to the Arab states in 1948-and were not attacked, need I post another article? The situation lies completely on the shoulders of the Israeli's, much like America's native american problem is America's fault-not Mexico for not providing enough subsistence to a fellow group of 'natives.' And yes, reservations are horrible. I have only been in one place on earth where the situation was that bad..and that was in the West Bank. Shame, America is involved in the humiliation of native people on both sides of the pond.
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Old 05-30-2002, 03:45 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Listen, there is one point that must be gotten straight by anyone before they can even pretend to have an intelligent logical discussion about the middle east. The victim here, we will all agree, is the palestinian public. Their afflictors (and there is more than 1, including israel, the palestinian's own leadership, and several extraneous palestinian states.) have plenty of blame to be spread around. If you approach the situation with the attitude that one side posesses a moral high ground, you are of a particular persuasion and not at all objective.

The surrounding arab countries refusing to accept palestinian arabss is like New Jersy refusing to accept refugees from New York.
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:36 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I agree, the PA have alot to explain to the Palestinian people. They tend to be much like the Israeli goverment-making civilians pay the costs for the ineptitudes and desires of the government. Lets face it, how many deaths on both sides are simply due to the stubborness of the leaders?

As far as moral high ground, well, I think both sides are more than happy to claim that. One side uses its religion to justify its atrocities, the other claims its uninterrupted history on the land for its own.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:57 AM   #67 (permalink)
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roach you piece of shit. shut the fuck up.
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