SmokeSomeDoja

what would you have to say to the rather large amount of people that despise war?


im willing to bet that war is not "natural" and "unavoidable."


war has always been a tool of the elite. its fought for the advantage of the ruling parties, and to think otherwise is outright stupid.


all war is fought for profit, and you must remember that the winners always tell the story their way, as the saying goes, "history is written by the winners."

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"I've run over black cats that were luckier than me."

atantricchic

The decision to go to war or to stay involved in an international conflict is done by and small pertentage of the actual population. So I believe it is an natural plan of action, but for a small segment of people. Warped people usually. Just there's probably just as many schizophrenics as people like Bush. Unfortunately, though... Bush is the President of the U.S. so it looks like our entire populations thinks like that.

In reality, Bush is a minority schizo..

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The moon up above
it shines on upon our skin

Whispering words that scream of outrageous sin
We all want the stuff that's found in our wildest dreams

It gets kinda rough in the back of our limousine

But that's what we are
We all want a love bizarre

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SmokeSomeDoja

bush isnt a schizo, hes a fucking tool of the establishment.

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"I've run over black cats that were luckier than me."

Ego Tripping

You're so right. It's just the fact that those powers that be have been continually driving that message into peoples heads. People have been ignorant and the majority still us, but I think eventually once more people communicate (ie...internet) it breaks that conditioning and makes people realize how pointless it is.

It's just stopping the War Machine (a great analogy imo) in it's tracks that's hard without resorting to armed revolution.

Apparently voting didn't work.

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Peace seeker

Bush and his fascistic elite, live in their own billionaire bubble. They run the US government (and the world) according to their "elite" ideas.

IF someone makes the mistake to feed reality in their bubble, he gets eliminated.

We are all replaceable "barbarians" to them.

snapshot

What about the losers that actually disagree with SSD?

Any comments theDude, xxxdream, others?

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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ThePerfectDrug

its definitely avoidable and unnatural

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That you're better 'n no one
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If you really believe that,
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From fixtures and forces and friends,
Your sorrow does stem,
That hype you and type you,
Making you feel
That you must be exactly like them.

Pitfall

it's all opc (orange peel fungus). it's fairly hard to say if war is a natural thing, we see alot of things in nature going to war with eachother. the patterns of evolution, i don't think anybody can pinpoint what they are. where society is going, i don't think anybody has the right answer to that. i don't think anybody knows where this race is headed or SUPPOSE to be going. mckenna had alot of great ideas, but maybe that's all alot of them were, ideas. so if you were to ask me if we were suppose to have world war 1, world war 2, the civil war, the LA riots etc, i totally couldn't tell you. if you were to ask me if i think world war 3 is suppose to happen, i would say maybe. i'm like 50% yeah it's gotta happen, 50% there is absolutely no reason for it to happen.

alot of wars obviouslly weren't NEEDED and were preventable, but that still doesn't mean they weren't suppose to happen. i think that somehow the human race needs things like world war 2 in their history, just so they KNOW how bad it can all get. and to maybe enjoy what little freedom they do have, and make the most of it. it also can make life seem more finite, which means that people will see more beauty. alot of things can do this though, not just war.
i think it's VERY natural to freak out in war and sort of live in a HYPER REALITY. i think it's fairly natural to lay into the occasional citizen when you believe you can die any second. especially if you can't find reason in the fighting. one thing that must really stress the soldiers out is that they are fighting an UNSEEN ENEMY. and there is no front-lines! a big part of this war is fucking car bombs and suicide bombers.
you could be a TOP soldier, but still have your odds of survival very low. you could also be very mentally healthy and still lose your mind, or your morals. so at this moment i am thinking that utopia is possible, but it depends on what your own views of utopia are. choosing love over paranoia etc is actually quiet easy, especially if you've had practice. we see example after example that war causes more bad than good. we keep remembering that we NEVER get peace through war. enemies will always be enemies, even if they've been defeated. the only thing that can kill hate is love. so being that ANY soldier can shit their pants in war, to me, that is proof that war is unnatural. insects killing eachother etc, that's just nature, that's just for survival. humans can all survive without killing eachother, it's possible.

the main reason for so much war is money. hating someone is natural, but plain hate is alot different than war. hate in general is destructive aswell though. having billions of people die for basically nothing, yeah, this tells me that war isn't natural. instincts in war can be natural, but not war itself. the iraq war isn't really a war in my eyes, it's more of a slaughterhouse. wars are meant to have knowable odds, visible enemies etc. war looks very unnatural, i think most soldiers will flinch if they blow someone's face away at close range. i think there has been a few times where war has been NEEDED. but i think that we're living in an age where there's always things we can try before thinking about war. these days, war should always be the last answer. sorry that was so long.

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snapshot

It's not natural for humans to kill. WTF kind of statement are you making here? How is it natural? There's no innate desire or environmental need for us to kill so we shouldn't do it. It's not like psychology unearthed long ago that we all supress our urge to kill. That's bullshit. We mask our guilt with power and greed and that's all there is to it.

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GreenGirl

I think war can be justified, but that this war is entirely unjustified and therefore dangerous to all who support it and all who stand by watching.

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snapshot

I think that's bullshit too. Reasons for war? Humans are greedy. Can you justify greed? Power. Can you justify you need for power?

Humans create these unnecessary obstacles such as capitalism, which essentially is an economy based on unlimited resources, and for the good of the humans' followers, or citizens, take over the lives of others not paying them royalties. Once the others are essentially "pwned" they pay royalties to the owners and must do as they command or they will be put into jail.

Wars, as it has been said before, is a chess game of the ruling elite and we are all pawns for economic growth. There must be war to keep the capitalistic war machine running smoothly, otherwise, the system collapses and we're right back in a 1930's depression.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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GreenGirl

War for money or religion is wrong, and the two are so often tangled together it's hard to tell the difference. A justified war, in my opinion, would be one of a purely humanitarian focus. Like if we were supported in our decision to go in and remove a horrendous, insane dictator. With much emphasis on supported. I know this hasn't happened, it's purely hypothetical.

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Some people wear their heart up on their sleeve. I wear mine underneath my right pant leg, strapped to my boot.
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Pitfall

worst newb ever. did w. have a son?

GreenGirl - yep. to me, people that support it are the enemy. i think the best way to make people realise that this war is wrong is to go in through the back gate. you don't go stand up on a roof and preach to everybody, you slowly give them more and more awareness through normal conversation. once they have enough awareness, they will find out ON THEIR OWN that the iraq war is wrong. and hopefully, that ALL war is wrong. they'd most probably be better activists that way aswell, because they weren't TOLD what to think.

snapshot - i think that humans create their own limits, but you've got to admit that things like greed are apart of human nature. we're all a little greedy etc when it comes down to it. if there was a hundred dollar note lying on the ground, would you report it or keep it for yourself? the thing is though, that i think we are evolving beyond "human nature." one time, human nature was ape nature, and now soon, it could be "utter free-will nature."

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Of contradictions infinite the slave. --Wordsworth.

snapshot

I'm just pissed off because I'm not going to Delaware today to get fucked up and Bondi is being a religious prick. So...


People do not kill out of necessity like animals do. It is often suggested that they do it because they "feel" it was necessary, but their lower brains (hind brain, midbrain) got in the way of their working forebrain, that used for intelligence and abstract thought (which has been proven that that is what it is used for in humans) and by becoming emotionally overwhelmed, they acted on instinct and emotion rather than logic, something which they are capable of and which would have a better outcome.

If someone cannot control their emotions or do not have a working forebrain, they need to be placed either behind bars or in a hospital because the majority of humans who have realized that killing is not necessary for survival should not be subject to such abuses.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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snapshot

Pit, I don't think anything done by humans can actually be considered "human nature" because you have how many thousands of years to draw your conclusions from. Perhaps a moralist or creationist could use the argument because they do not believe in the evolution of being, but from a scientific perspective, human nature can not be defined definitively. Using "human nature" as an argument for anything is merely presenting circumstantial evidence towards a biased opinion. Every number of things are a part of human nature, and there are many contradictions when speaking of human nature, such as greed and charity, giving birth and killing, loving and hating...

All of these contradict each other so we can't use them to define us but merely help us realize that we are humans, souls, beings, and we are not our defining characteristics. There is no perfect human. There are no standards.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
-Richard Dawkins

snapshot

Dude, havn't you been here for like 4 months? Don't take Pitfall's "noob" comments seriously unless you seriously respect his opinion, which most of us don't. I view him as the bringer of great information, not necessarily for his judgement skills. Don't take too much personal offense from him and try to be more mature than him and stick to the topic.


Shame on you Pitfall. Shame shame shame. Now post more in that NWO thread. I read like 80% but the end of the last article got really fucking boring.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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snapshot

It's cool. I understand mostly and you make some good points.

The thing is humans have no need to kill other humans. In fact, it's most detrimental to our existance to kill other humans. For a leader, a perfect world wouldn't be War All The Time, it would be unquestioned loyalty. But it's not a perfect world for them so instead to coerce other to be loyal they use fear. One tactic to get fear into the hearts and minds of the innocent is to kill others.

Another reason leaders kill is in self-defense. But as soon as self-defense comes into play you always have to look at the human on the other side of the equation and look at what their motives are. If you don't look at both sides you can't make a valid argument. One side is never just killing out of pure "human nature." There is always a motive. Greed is usually the main one. In the case of terrorism, they believe that their very way of life is being threatened by "evil" Americanism. They respond the most effective way they know how.

You see, for me to make my point, I only have to dig as deep as I need to to make it. I don't have to have the ultimate truth or ultimate anything. I just need to look at both sides and see why something is and why something shouldn't be. My point against killing is that it doesn't feed any innate need. It is merely a tool for gains. The gains mask the guilt of the killing and that is enough to justify. But this is a bad and degenerative cycle. From greed comes war. From war comes greed. It doesn't end. Breaking the cycle, evolution, is what needs to happen. On our current path, the only way to true peace is ultimately the destruction of the entire human race.

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
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snapshot

good? yes? no?

I like critisism too... just to let you know...

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We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
-Richard Dawkins

Home Wrecker

I think war and killing are very natural things. It is survival of the fittest in the wild, and the selfish animals are the ones that survive. Why would an animal share territory and food with another animal when they could just kill it?

That being said I would like to think humans have evolved beyond this point. With everything our big brains have done for us we should be able to set up a system where there are no major disputes over resources or whatever. Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but maybe someday.

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GreenGirl

You seem reasonably intelligent, snapshot. Just teasing. You have good points and lay them out coherently.

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Some people wear their heart up on their sleeve. I wear mine underneath my right pant leg, strapped to my boot.
-Ani DiFranco