farmergiles

This is quite long and sad btw.

So I got a call today from a friend- he was very upset. He'd just got off the phone from an hour long call with a mutual friend of ours.... who I'll call Burt.

So a bit of background about Burt.

About 8 years ago (I think I've got the chronology right ) he was doing quite well- he'd been promoted to a management position at his work (he's a very bright guy) and was engaged to a lovely lady he'd met through work and they bought a house. So they got married, a very happy day, I was there. The only bad thing was his family took issues with his lady and he fell out with them (very little blame on his or her part in this instance imo- I knew them all pretty well and what was going down at the time)

Said lady had had a few issues in early life but had made great strides in resolving them and sorting her own life and career.

Burt went on the sick from work. We all knew he was malingering and so did his work- but they couldn't prove it so they couldn't sack him easily. Burt all this time is acting smug because he's getting paid a decent wage without having to do any work.


So eventually his employers work out a way of letting him go. His Mrs in the mean time is getting pissed off with supporting them single handed. They've already blown quite a lot of money on holidays, interior furnishings, shoes etc. Eventually Burt borrows money from her family to train as a tradesman but only enters into business in a half arsed manner.

Then, tragically, she is diagnosed with (as it turns out fatal) cancer. Burt stops making any pretence of working. All their friends stepped up to help with care and whatnot (I've known people who had to make a living and support a terminally ill partner with minimal help), also they happened to inherit a large sum of money just at this time. They sold their house and rented one in a picturesque village.

It became clear that she was going to die. During this time they spent a lot of money on fripperies. She expressed concern over profligacy but she knew she was dying and was on a lot of medication so I guess she had other pressing concerns at the time.

So she died.

Burt stayed in the house they were renting- basically living in the living room with the cat and letting the rest of the house go to shit. The rent was big $.
He received a payout on her life insurance.

He squanders some money on a flash car and stupid shoes but does nothing constructive.

After about a year I strongly suggest either getting a job, doing some voluntary work or taking a college degree. Burt hums and ha's but doesn't do shit.
He loses contact with most of his friends either through not returning their calls or acting weird and falling out with them.

So I meet this guy who happens to have a tiny cottage for rent in the same village, low $, small but very nice. I suggest Burt moves out of the big house. So he takes up the new place but doesn't return the keys to the old place. He's now paying both rents. I'm like wtf !
So Burt's rational is he's embarrassed at the state of the place but can't bring himself to go through all his dead wife's stuff etc. I'm like pay some fucker to burn it for you or put it in storage until later, the house is a serious money pit.
Burt does nothing. I'm like wtf!

So he finds some doctor that diagnosed him with PTSD. Now while he does display a wide variety of symptoms I think these are perfectly explicable by him being a shiftless waster with nothing to occupy his days . Also his non application started way before any traumatic incident connected with his wife's death.

So eventually the old house gets seriously trashed and the landlord finds out but takes pity on him so doesn't hammer him for damages.

Recently I've been avoiding him because the stupidity of his lifeplan is cringeworthy- it's like the elephant in the living room- I've made every suggestion or offered every means of assistance possible but to no avail.

So today he's rung up his last other friend (remember he fell out with all his family years ago) blah blah crisis, suicide etc. Which tbh does not surprise given the trend.

So we're thinking of trying to get him committed.

What else can we do?

BTW although I've painted a fairly shiftless picture of Burt he has always been a trustworthy friend as long as you take into account his innate shiftlessness, I've known him a long time.

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fenderbender

Id say the man needs some love in his life to make him realize it is still worth living.
You either want to keep on goin or you dont man.

If you cant be the person to give this man that love, i suggest you find someone who can.

He'll be in my thoughts.

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<3

farmergiles

What? I'm looking to get advice on whether we should try to section him.

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SageTree

I'm not sure what the laws are in the UK, but I'm pretty sure that here you can get into some serious trouble is you KNOW someone wants to harm themselves.
If he tells a health professional that he'll be committed for a time with out a doubt.

You have public medicine right? So it won't cost him anything if he goes?

PTSD is serious stuff and AT LEAST needs to seek treatment on his own terms, if it's not done for him.

He's lucky to have a friend like you two. I hope for the best man.
It's hard a hell to 'do' that to someone.... but I think it's the right thing to do.
He needs help from the sounds of it....

Has he been asked if he'd be willing to seek treatment.
You take it he's very serious about it or is this a 'I don't know what else to do with myself?' scenario.

I think you were right to try to get him out of the house and involved.
Even before his Wife died, it didn't sound like he felt very fulfilled in the first place.

If suicide is the answer for him, what giving a treatment a go?

Death can be metaphorical here... he can 'kill' old Bert by just trying to do something completely different.

I hope this helps you and Burt man. It's a hard place to be.




How are YOU with all of this?

Love
Sagey

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mothernature

Wow, FJ. This is terrible news.

Honestly, I would go see Burt, and suss out the situation for myself. I don't know what the laws are over there, but here, he has to be a danger to himself or others, before you can commit a person against their will. Threatening suicide counts as a danger to himself.

If you really believe he will commit suicide, then I would definitely try to commit him. I think it may require a family member, I'm not sure about that part.

I would encourage him to call his family and if you think he's in really bad shape, I would call them myself. Rummage through his desk for the number.

I hate to say that because I was in a similar situation years ago. A friend was going crazy before my eyes. We friends, called his mother. She could only get him committed when he tried to jump out of the moving car, to prove he was invincible.

When they came to get him, they sent 2 big uniformed cops. They took him to jail in handcuffs, to await the white coats. He was so scared. I felt really bad.

I really believe if we hadn't done it, he would be dead.

What ever you do, I know it will be the right thing.

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SageTree

Calling 911

Or whatever that number is....



.....and telling them you know of a person who is in danger of killing themselves might draw out some action with out all the legal process?

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farmergiles

No I don't think he's very serious atm but there is a consistent trend of haplessness which can only end one way (self inflicted or more likely through self neglect) unless something changes...

Yes that's what I was thinking. He has sought treatment through his GP (family doctor) but there is very little state funding for psychiatric treatment, at least in non critical cases.

The PTSD- perhaps that's real, if it is it is only making things worse, the direction of events started long before his wife even became ill, IDK.

I feel a bit drained by the whole thing tbh- slow motion car crash ftl.

Now there is a can of worms- he fell out with his family quite badly- not really through any fault of his own imo.
Putting him in their care would be a bigger betrayal of trust than just abandoning him.

Although legally I'm sure the situation would be perceived differently. Maybe he could sign powers of attorney or whatever it's called to me or to above mentioned friend- but I can see that getting complicated.

Quite possibly his family would sling accusations or start shit if they could, they acted very malevolently around the time of his wedding when they fell out.
So that's all a bit complex.
Shit, I'm not the only one then .

Thanks very much to you and Sage for your kind response..

But not you fb

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Mafoo

to me, as much as it would suck to have a friend commit you, i think its a good option.
i think it would go like this:
a. hes actually got ptsd, he gets some treatment and actually gets better and can move on with his life. or
b. hes faking and he'll be forced to change because he likely wont want to be in the bin for too long. the only way to get out, as far as i know, is to be discharged as having been rocovered.

im not really sure how it works with people who arent violent outwardly. if he is thinking about suicide he might qualify

good luck FG, sounds like a tough situation to be a part of

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For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return

SageTree

I'm glad anything that I said helped Brother.
You're not in this alone if you got us man.
I've been in this situation before with an alcoholic friend.
Fortunately... I'd call it....
He was pulled over and jumped out the car threatening to kill himself and the cops....
He of course was taken right to the 5th floor in our city... the Psych ward.
It helped him greatly, and even though he still struggles... and drinks like a fish, he doesn't drink and drive anymore, isn't suicidal nor at rock bottom.
There is no doubt my Friend is tumbling his way to an early grave, but that's really just a prediction.
ALL of us have tried to help him and nothing takes.
In the end it's up to our Buddy to do it for himself... a little... it'll got a long way, imo.

It's hard to watch man, I really feel for you there.

I hope something pans out for you.

Power of Attorney, in the US and Canada isn't/wasn't hard to get, as my Wife is mine and I hers... and is mostly just some consent and signing, which he'd HAVE to be part of.
Then you could go forward.
But I genuinely believe he has to see this for himself as well or else he'll feel imprisoned and possibly resentful.

You are a good man for caring and so is your friend... unless she is a she... then she's a good lady

Not sure if counseling breaks down differently than psychiatrist, but that is a slower venue and will help with referrals for meds/psychiatrist if he needs that.



Love of Love man. You'll be in my meditations and prayers.

Turning up the love light,
Sagerini

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farmergiles

Yes, you're right, I hadn't exactly thought of option b quite like that but it's very true when you put it like that.

I looked up some info

So I think the family are not relevant- social services make the the decision based on their assessment.

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Mafoo

hoping for the best for you FG. i know your friend may get angry as a first response, but hang in there man. hopefully he'll realize that you are just trying to help

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PLUR
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return

ChiefBongWater

Wow, thats a really sad situation for Burt.

Anything can happen in this life and its sometimes hard to know what is the right thing to do.

I say that Burt just needs a friend more than anything right now.

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Bad dog

ask yourself if you were him, do you think that it would be the answer.

The guy lost his wife for fucks sake and is perfectly entitled to fall to bits.
If he wants to be a scammer and not work then that's his business not yours ( unless he is scrounging money off you ), which I understand he isn't.
If you are a real friend and really care then make a group with any others that still care and just be active friends for this guy. Or just try and be an active friend for him by yourself.
Your not his family and by the souinds of it you've had enough of being his friend.

Friends are those people that come to help you when you are in the shit without you asking them to come.

Unless you think the guys going to top himself, don't get the headshrinkers involved.

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Jenna_Grows

Heartbreaking story for sure Farmer and I know your heart is in the right place. Its painful for everyone when they see someone so lost. I don't really have any advice. Just wanted you to know I am thinking about you and hope the light finds you and your buddy.

Have a good laugh over something silly and remember not to take all this living stuff so seriously. Better times are on the way.

C_ka

Very sorry to hear of your difficult situation man.
I have been in somewhat similar situations before as well.

I guess my advice is to make sure you do what needs to be done. Do not be afraid.
If you think he's going to hurt himself; how would you feel if you had not acted to prevent him because you felt uncomfortable about what he would think of you or how his family would react or what others might think of you ect.. ? Trust your instinct and your heart, you cant go back in time.



First stop I think is confronting him. Do it as a friend but don't be afraid to be hard - you have to tell it how it is and try to open his eyes to what you perceive is going on. The best option is if you can get him to get help for himself.

If he wont there is probably one of two reasons;
A) He is of generally sound mind and with his personal values at the moment and his life state he is OK, whatever your interpretation of his life may be. (i.e he is choosing to live in such a state) (i.e what Bondi is saying in which case its his choice)
B) He has a actual deficit in his physical or emotional health which has become beyond his control and is also having a negative effect on his life in his opinion (i.e he would not be that way if he had a choice).

The difference between these two is a grey scale and obviously not black and white. It can be very hard to decide where to draw your line. The state tends to draw its at the point where people become a danger to themselves or others.
For me it is the point where i can obviously see that shit aint' gonna get better by itself. At this point I would act.



Now what that action means for you is up to you. Whether it is not doing anything, just listening through the grapevine to monitor his health, going over to visit him, start visiting him often and hanging out with him to try raise his mood, confronting him, getting his family involved, getting health services involved, getting the authorities involved or tying his ass up and administering the damm anti-psychotics your self.

Keep in mind if you choose to truly support this person, in my opinion you should do so whole heartedly - but THIS WILL MOST LIKELY BE A LONG AND DIFFICULT ROAD. It will also most likely be very rewarding. There is a chance it will be completely fruitless. But that chance is there anyway.

The point being do not underestimate the toll this could take on you, this can take a massive amount of your time, effort and emotional and spiritual energy. Decide what this person means to you and what their potential loss might mean to you. How much effort are you willing to invest before you could accept their death with a clear conscious? At the same time, remember to love yourself enough to know you cannot throw your own life away.



To answer whether you should get him committed, shit i don't know. I don't know him and i don't know you. Only you can walk this path.

If you cant see any way its going to get better with out intervention then intervene. As i have said, what that intervention will be is up to you. But don't be afraid to act. The last thing i would wish for you is for you to feel bad because you did not help when you could have. Beware of the bystander effect.

Good luck, god speed & <3. Thinking of you guys in you time of trial.

p.s sorry for the massive post.

.

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"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
— Eugene V. Debs

farmergiles

Still haven't come to any conclusions yet, thanks for all your well thought responses everyone.

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shai_hulud

poop in a cup

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farmergiles

And thanks for your response shai.

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SageTree

+1 ,I've solved at least a few problems that way


Any furthur updates FG?

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farmergiles

We made him go to the doctors and get an appointment with a psychiatrist.

Aforementioned friend bullied him into sorting some basic life stuff out.

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