Waves

Well thats not a very good attitude to have.

Of course people know. Thats why we have science. And every day we "know" more and more. are you suggesting that we just stop learning stuff? through science we can find out all that stuff, we just happen to not "know" it yet. shit without science you wouldnt be able to get on the internet and tell these people to stop discussing these things...

we didnt evolve from monkeys btw, we evolved from a common ancestor shared by us and primates.

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OldSchoolStylee

Yeah he exists he was HBK's tag team partner at Backlash.

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verklingen

Some clarifications:

Firstly, this thread is not dedicated to any sectarian belief. Being absolute, God is not sectarian, and belief in Him should not be either.

Secondly, time is an attribute of our material universe. Therefore, whoever or whatever caused our universe exists and acts outside the confines of time.

Laslty, "infinity" implies the presence of time. Anything which exists within time is subject to having a beginning.

Please keep these points in mind while posting. Thanks!

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verklingen

Because it is the only logical explanation. Explaining existence by vaguely referencing a theoretical explosion still fails to explain what set the explosion off.
That very well could be! But for the sake of this thread, let us consider God as an idea rather than a personage. Something set our existence into motion, and that something is to be considered God. His personal constitution is irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion, for in dealing with these questions we are discussing the existence of God, not His nature.

Again, I am not interested in a theistic approach to this question. I am only concerned with logical and theoretical proofs for God's existence, not His personal qualities.

It would be if the questions stopped there! But this is the point where the real questions only begin to surface.

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JMOxLLELLO

but to be honest with you all....no1 knows and no1 will ever know...maybe when we die dream on will play and some higher beign will show us how he created everything....who knows...

i know, what nobody knows, where it comes and where it goes... lol

thatd be dope bongsmilie

OldSchoolStylee

I had a good point too.

Pro wrestling is a great source of theological information.

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JahBohl

Then stop using personal pronouns for chrissake (fucking capitalized at that). Or maybe we shouldn't play the equivocation game at all.


Proofs are for mathematics.

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JahBohl

Word. A bit ironic when those who rail against modern science use a product of modern science to do so.

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verklingen

^
The methodology of science as a theoretical, technological enterprise and modern scientific philosophy are completely unrelated topics. Science's modern philosophy is fain to make illogical or incomplete conclusions not on virtue of amassed scientific data but out of a desire to destroy religion. There is no reason why a question such as "is there an intelligent designer?" cannot be seriously discussed other than the fact that science will not accept it.

Science has become the draconian force the church was during the renaissance: limiting thought and shoving aside anything which sheds new light on long-held conceptions of reality (chaos theory comes to mind).

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Waves

Heh, thats a gross generalization.

Science and religion are just different versions of the same tool. You could call science "reigion 2.0" i guess. And because we are working on another version of the same tool, we will naturally have some of the same problems we saw with the first one.

For example: you say that science is draconian in its limiting perspective and has become dogmatic in some of its beliefs. But religion back in the old days was the SAME way! People just dont like to change their beliefs!

Religion is not making any further progress. Sorry to say. It is only going to diminish as science learns more and more about the physical world. Anyone can see this is happening and has been happening since science was created. We are at the point where people are branching off from religion to form psuedo-religions based on nothing other than new scientific evidence that states the world could NOT HAVE POSSIBLY BEEN MADE IN SEVEN DAYS!

People used to really think that the world was made in seven days!

Anyway, yeah science is dogmatic and slow and full of egotistical idiots who care more about profit than research. But at least science holds the promise that we will always be learning more, always progressing and creating newer better technology, working more efficiantly with mother nature, all that stuff. it is my opinion that we are all going to live to see some of the biggest leaps in science and technology that the human race has ever seen. Once a species starts to control its own evolution consciously, good things happen.

We just have to get past the "angry monkey" stage is all

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verklingen

I do not agree that science and religion are the same tool. Religion is a way of seeing the world, and science is a way of understanding it through trial and error. Science cannot replace religion any more than religion can replace science. Human stubborness, however, is less particular. The close-minded religious authorities of yesterday have been deposed in favor of the close-minded scientific authorities of today. I have no adoration for either.

Science is good at what it does, but when it purposely leaves blanks in its conception of reality simply because it will not accept the possibility of a prime mover, I'm going to raise my red flag.

But please! Let's keep this discussion on-topic.

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Waves

I think your playing semantics here.

Religion and science are both tools we use to understand reality, much like a bike and a car are both tools we use to transport our bodies around.
I would personally say that the religous authorities today are JUST AS close-minded as ever! And of COURSE religion would never replace science- it would be sort of like using a bone to hit a nail in over a hammer!

NEWSFLASH: Close-minded people are EVERYWHERE! It sucks! Theres nothing we can do about it!

Il give you a very basic example of science replacing religion: People used to believe that the world was created in seven days by a man in the sky.

Without science, people still might believe that! Science comes in and tells us exactly HOW the earth was created, exactly WHY the earth was created, and exactly WHEN the earth was created. Just because we arent there yet doesnt mean it wont happen. But thats just one example of science coming in and clearing up peoples previous misconceptions. EVERYBODY will believe the SAME thing about how the world was created, thanks to science. Religion could never supply that.
Do not take lack of evidence as intent of disbelief. Just because we cant PROVE the existance of a prime mover at this point doesnt mean that science dictates that there was no prime mover at all. Our science is at such an infantile stage that its not accepting ALOT of possibilites. But that doesnt mean you as an individual cannot accept those possibilites and work towards proving them in a scientific manner.

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verklingen

I would too, but they are not the norm. Their beliefs are no longer the common viewpoint. Scientists have deposed them in this regard.

And how would this add or detract from their quality of life? It's really just an empty, superficial transition: it doesn't augment any meaning or value. How the universe was created doesn't have an impact on the way most people live their lives.

I cannot ever forsee science explaining any "why?"

My dear friend Waves, you are absolutely correct. I was a bit worried until I reached this point, thanks for reinforcing my faith in you.

But this is not the mentality of most people. They see that the science they have been taught has yet to prove or hint toward the existence of a prime mover, so they are unable to conceive it even as a logical possibility. If this were untrue, why so much debate over the question of intelligent design?

The fact is that a prime mover is not just a possibility, it is a necessity. Not one single person can coherently argue that an effect has no cause. If simple logic cannot sway people, they'll have to accept your post-dated check and keep hungrily licking their lips in anticipation even though Aquinas has laid out a very nice dinner right in front of them.

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Ego Tripping

So why don't all Scientists agree?

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Waves

See? Its already starting
On the contrary. I could use something like "virus" as an example as well.

In the olden days people might have seen virus's as satans attempt at killing a person. or as a demon inhabiting a persons body. This is all just people trying to make sense of reality. Only science can come in and figure out what a virus is, why it is in the body, and how to get rid of it. Religion will never be able to help people in that regards.

Things like this are why science is just a more efficient tool for exploring the universe. of course religion was a necessary step for our species, but now we are at the point where we can say "we are killing each other over gods that we created in the first place! It doesnt matter wether or not jesus is the messiah!"

And this is a huge breakthrough for us angry monkeys! Because angry monkeys will look for any reason at all to fight or conflict with one another. i suppose its something we developed as a means of surviving. anyways as barriers break down, like wether or not jesus is some sort of messiah who is going to rise from the dead and save all of humanity, science will step in to tell people whats REALLY going on.
You lack foresight my friend

Right now science is only focused on one part of our existance- the physical world. We arent even done exploring our own backyards with this science thing! We HAVE somewhat acknowledged the area in consciousness we call the "mind" by creating the science of psychology but thats only a few hundred years old!

That in essence means that religion has had time to cover ALL areas, like the yogis explaining about consciousness and the mind, while science has yet to even ACKNOWLEDGE the existence of the "mind!"

As soon as we make this discovery we will get moving on the "why." Because the "why" of the physical universe isnt something you can find in the physical universe. Thats something you find outside the universe, in the realm of thought and mental energy. Things science has yet to cover. But just you wait, and i really do mean wait, because i can guarentee you that this whole "religion dying" thing is going to happen in our lifetimes. We are on the verge of some cool discoveries that will have humans doing things that 50 years ago (now) seem impossible.

Sort of like how 50 years ago the internet seemed impossible. Well this new stuff is going to blow the internet out of the water.

So in conclusion, just give science some time. It will explain everything.

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Waves

Well, they do.

Theres these things called "theories" which are the things scientists DONT agree on.

But i can assure you that all scientists agree on things we are sure about. Like how water turns into gas. We can all agree on that kind of stuff. But science is so new and so infantile that your right, its hard to find two scientists to agree on most anything.

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Ego Tripping

So do you. Ultimately, due to Science's reductionistic methods, the ultimate "Why" will be un-testable and subjective to the experiencer, thus the ultimate Why will have to have Faith to be believed.

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Waves

I think science will tell us that in the end there is no such thing as "why."

science will reveal the same exact thing religion did- there is no "why." only pure being. anything other than simply existing is a castle made out of sand, and you are no longer focused on the sand itself but the design you are creating with it. science will tell us that "why" is a concept in our heads that we all create subjectively. and if that isnt science then i dont know what is

to say that science cant explain "why" is putting a barrier on consciousness. And we all know what barriers really are

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Ego Tripping

Or the concept that "why" is a concept is just a concept in your head and thus there truly IS a Why and you're creating the logical fallacy around it!

Around and around we go...you definately lack the foresight that you claim to have.

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Waves

Thats certainly possible too. But if there was ever going to be any tool that discovers this, it will be science, not religion. not that religion hasnt already discovered all the answers, because it has. we both know that we are just creating meaning out of meaninglessness with this. but it will be science which lets everyone in on the meaningful meaninglessness of it all. religion is too entrenched in its gods and spirits and all that stuff.

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