sonicwoah

people live to discover...form the earliest age your mind is learning new things. However after you learn the basics of life (the necessary pieces of knowledge), then what else? Why does everyone always need to learn more? After a certain point we are not learning but creating (using "science"). What is the extent of learning? If scientists believe that the universe is finite not infinite..then whats is after the universe? Or is the universe big enough that mankind will not have enough time to reach the finite end? Either way we keep trying to learn all that we can..

JcPizwink

The problem with that sonicwoah, from my standpoint, is that "basics" is relative.

I would consider "why am I here" pretty basic. Imagine if you were suddenly put into a room with a tiger, a pad of paper, and three jelly beans.

Would not one of your first thoughts be 1) fuck! That's a mother fuckin lion! 2) why are there three jellybeans and a pad of paper and a lion in here? 3) why am I here?

To me that's the same.

thoughts? Good post, made me ponder.

sonicwoah

i think i understand what you mean(lemme know if i misinterpret). The situation u describe puts a human in the most raw setting. True human nature is revealed in a survival aka fight or flight situation. You may be wondering why..? but more imortantly how can can i avoid getting eaten by this fucking lion? The jellybeans and such are irrelivant to the situation (although funny and probably fascinating).

Think about it like this... The situation (of escape) represent man's desire for knowledge. They only simply ("basically") want to escape and gain knowledge. The lion represents the steps one must take to learn. Much like a man against a lion, science is a competition against the mysteries of nature and such. The jellybeans represent in my mind all the other aspects of life..material objects (a job money perhaps even a phat blunt) You would like them and are interesting..however would u rather have the jellybeans or escape the lion's den...? SURVIVAL.

The meaning of life is to discover the true necessities of life..and the components that allow life to grow and exist.

sonicwoah

i forgot about the paper...the paper represents the mistakes of life, and the steps taking to properly comprehend life..this may be endless

Waves

This entire life is not a belief construct. The way we have chosen to create this life is through the use of belief constructs, so it makes no sense for me to "move on" or graduate from them. When we choose to focus our attention in this physical universe/system/dimension/etc we choose to operate within its rules. Gravity, for instance, is not a law. it is an agreeance. it is REAL, and so are our belief constructs. It is how we choose to express ourselves. there is no "moving on" to be done.
Scares me into thinking?

I have chosen to continue my existance on this earth. fear is yet another belief construct, and i have not chosen fear. it is a valid choice, but i did not make it.

I could choose not to continue my existance, but it would be not out of a loss of fear, but a loss of purpose. And when i choose to go i assure you it will not be my conscious rational material mortal mind that makes that decision.
Again, you cannot move on past belief constructs. you are tieing in your own belief constructs here in thinking that part of life entails some sort of "graduation" or "moving on" or "enlightenment." that is all B.S. you are as enlightened now as you ever will be. there is a huge difference between rejection of belief and acceptence of it. i choose to come here and create my reality this way, and you did as well. it was a choice. not good or bad.

belief constructs are a part of our reality. it is how we choose to create our reality. a painter chooses to use paints, a musician chooses to use an instrument, and we choose to use beliefs. every waking moment and every little thing that you notice or that catches your attention is a direct creation of YOU. some of that creation is hidden from us, and that too is a choice because if we saw that creation we might not hold the beliefs of purpose or meaning that we do, but it is nonetheless your creation. every tiny atom.

the problem is we have not realized this yet, and that is exactly what our current time period is about. realizing en masse our choice in expression, and utilizing it to its fullest extent, as opposed to using constructs of conflict and what seem to us "negative" behavior. science is obviously playing a huge role in this. I am saying that as humans, we will collectively incorporate an objective knowledge of how we create our own realities. Up to now, we have been a painter not aware of how he paints his creation. we dont even know that we are creating, we think in terms of things and scenarios happening "to us." but nothing happens to you, nobody is touching your canvas. other people around you may be influencing of what you paint, per say, but it is you with your hand on the brush. We will realize our rules of creation, ie our beliefs, and use them to our advantage to accomplish things that now seem very impossible. this will happen in our lifetimes, so if you choose not to incorporate this information into your belief system, i respect that and say "just wait and see "
my choice

Again, let me say that belief constructs are not bad. They are not negative. They are not an obstacle to be overcome. you are clouding your thinking with yet more belief constructs by thinking in these terms. belief constructs are the CHOICE we have made in expressing our subjective selves in this objective reality. so embrace them, revel in them, create with them, for fucks sake express yourself!

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Waves

Ah but you are talking about someone else now...if my grandpa is not sitting at my side it is because i have made the choice for him to not be at my side. death has nothing to do with that.

in terms of the grandfathers perception, it could be the same when dead as when you are alive. just like in a dream your perception may be the same of that as when you are alive. hence my sig. if you die and you are unaware objectively of that fact, you may very well not know that you physically died. in which case your perception is going to be no different than it were to be if you were physically alive.(again, this is a choice made by the individual as to how he goes through the death process, it is not a negative thing)

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

JcPizwink

Waves, I can't take you seriously when you say things like this. That might be because I'm being closed minded, and if so I apologize....

but come on. You don't choose when people are dead or alive. You don't really think that do you?

As for your post above this one, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree. I find a lot of what you say really interesting and a lot of it strikes me as incomplete, self-aggrandizing, and hypocritical. But you know what? Whatever works for you, I say go for it. And no one has any right (including me) to shoot your beliefs down. I guess I'm just looking for a little admittance that your beliefs are BELIEFS and not fact. Belief constructs are not REAL, they are how YOU PERSONALLY have decided to decipher this world. And it's no more valuable than praying to a giant broccoli stalk, God, Krishna, or science. It's also no less valuable than any of those as well.

That's what makes all of us really cool...everyone is different and yet we're all the same. So break through those belief constructs of yours and choose whatever it is you choose. Maybe we'll cross paths as I search for a meaning that makes sense to me.

Waves

I never said that. I said that in the hypothetical situation of my grandfather being next to me or not next to me, it is my choice either way. death has nothing to do with my grandfather being next to me or not. if he has died that is his choice and it will affect my reality respecitvely. i will obviously not be able to choose to have my grandfather sitting next to me if he has made his own choice to focus his attention into other areas of reality, and thus disengage his physical body. that is his choice. in respect to my individual reality, i will not be able to see my grandfather. but in respect to HIS individual reality his perception might be the same as when he was alive. do you understand? they are two different realities. mine and my grandfathers. when i asked ego the difference between being alive and dead, i did not ask him about the difference in relation to other individuals still physical active, as was the case in your answer, but i asked the difference in relation to the individuals perception of reality itself, the grandfathers perception of reality.
I have admitted from the beginning that my beliefs are only my beliefs and not fact, have I not? This is the essence of belief! I believe things that cause other things to happen; you believe different things that cause different things to happen! this difference in belief is not a good thing, au contrare in our terms it can be seen as a positive thing because of all the diversity and uniqueness it creates! for instance, if my beliefs were similar to those of all brazilians females, we would have a bunch of pasty, nerdy chicks more interested in discussing philosophy than walking down a catwalk half-naked. but theses are all expressions of choice and self and individuality, there is no "good/bad/right/wrong" involved! i choose to focus on different aspects of the same physical reality, that is the only difference! In realizing and accepting beliefs/diversity it is not necessary to "move on" from life, for much more can be accomplished within life than whatever could possibly be next. the moment is ours to focus on, and until our "guarenteed" experience of death comes to us, it is a concept in our heads and nothing more. so why choose to bring this concept into reality when you can choose any number of things?

i wouldnt expect for you to take me seriously if i claimed my words to be objective truth, haha There is no such thing as fact, that is what i was expressing in my original post. death is not a fact. death is not a truth. death is a guarenteed occurence, and it is only guarenteed because we believe it is guarenteed! there are no absolutes in a subjective reality. What is a fact for me is not a fact for you, what is a fact for you is not a fact for me. Death holds importance to you and ego, it does not to me. that is a decision. Thats what makes belief systems different and that is what creates such wonderful diversity on this planet! imagine if everyone believed the way i did! earth would be very boring

Belief constructs are very real. You yourself say they are not real, but then go on to acknowledge their realness by saying that they are the way we have individually chosen to look at reality, which is quite correct! So they are not real in the sense of your usual thinking of "real" as they are not physical creations of the ego. but they are real in the sense of having reality. You will accept that sooner or later. Again, they are not real in the sense of being real physical objects, but they are real nonetheless are they not!? "truth" is not a physical object, yet i am quite sure you believe in the concept of "truth" correct?

I create a subjective way of looking at the world. You create a subjective way of looking at the world. These are all unique belief systems. There is no good or bad involved. Good and bad are the biggest beliefs we have. We create our individual realities based on good/bad, right/wrong, real/fake. all these concepts are real concepts. they are not chemicals in your brain, they are not physical things at all. But they are just as real as the keyboard i am typing on.

"value" is also unique from person to person...and if praying to a giant broccolli stick compliments my value fulfillment, or "floats my boat" then i will pray to broccolli all night There is no "right" or "wrong" involved, as they are belief constructs. In the coming decades we will be neutralizing our belief constructs by accepting them for what they are. happiness is a choice, so we will choose to be happy. sadness is a choice, and in our terms(beliefs) a negative one, so we will not choose to be sad, or angry, or any other "negative" emotion. we will recognize that these are our choice. we will recoginze that we can choose happiness at all time, and we will. you can do this right now if you so choose!
So why do you think we are all "different yet the same?" This is all a part of your belief system, which is very real. If it wasnt, you wouldnt be drawing on it to make the objective statement of "everyone is different and yet we're all the same." That is a belief. It is real. It is not a chemical in your brain or a neuron firing off. it is a statement you made by drawing upon your objective belief system. Without different beliefs we would be like animals all looking the same and behaving the same and persuing the same goals of reproduction. We are subjective individuals with unique beliefs, unique worldviews, and that is exactly what makes us different yet the same! we have pornography because we have people who believe it is ok to have sex on video. we have a black market because we have people who believe it is ok to buy and sell certain objects outside of an offical source. we have schools because we have people who believe in teaching other people, and spreading objective knowledge. we have airplanes because we have people willing to believe that humans can fly huge distances in tiny little metal ships. and so on. all of our physical reality is based on belief. that is our choice of creation. do you think we could have ever made it to the moon without the belief beforehand that it is possible for man to travel to the moon? that is in fact the FIRST prerequisite is it not?

You are recognizing the reality of my beliefs, and you are accepting of that reality. you say no one has the right to shoot down my beliefs! this is a very good sign for you as an individual! wether you know it objectively or not, you are accepting that my beliefs hold a reality. now you can look at your own self and the beliefs you have established and figure out what makes you tick as a person. or not. it is your choice. you will make the choices that best fit you and the more you accept those choices and accept what you look at as "negative" situations the better your life will get. you did not come across my post by accident, as i did not come across the information myself by accident. there are no accidents or coincidences. you are creating this information right now for yourself to achieve a specific purpose, just as I did and just as everyone reading this now is.

anyway, i think there is an air of hostility that we need to get rid of in this thread. we are just smart monkeys sitting around discussing complex topics that we could or could not have any idea about. but its damn fun so lets do it with a sense of fun, enjoyment, and comradery as opposed to egotistical "my belief-dick is bigger than yours" bullshit. cheers.

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

JcPizwink

I had to cut some stuff out Waves. I tried to keep your points that I replied to in as much as I could.

long post. I need to smoke a bowl after that one, lol

The Rev

The meaning of life is a meaningless concept without asking "meaning to whom?" Meaning is a relative thing. The fact that the superbowl is on has one meaning to a football fan, and another meaning to his wife. So it is with life.



The Rev

__________________

Waves

how is that relevent? you are not going to come over to my house and shoot me because i choose for you not to. bringing hypothetical situations into it is just another form of building beliefs, but you might not know it. you are not going to come over to my house and you are not going to shoot me. if you choose to do this we would have to make a subjective agreement(we might not be aware of this agreement objectively, and so to our objective minds it would seem that i did NOT choose for you to kill me, but i DID nonetheless. the choice is simply not objective.
So we are not talking about death, we are talking about my choice in regards to playing scrabble with my grandfather. If my grandfather, at a previous time, choose to disengage his physical body then that is his choice. I can not intrude on his reality and force him to sit next to me and play scrabble. He has chosen to move on. His choice will influece my reality, but not create it. YOU create YOUR individual reality.
In regards to the physical world you are quite correct. we all create subjective belief constructs to deal with *what seems to us* objective reality. But you are assuming that this physical reality is the only reality, are you not? is that not a belief?
You choose to create this information. I merely assisted in the creation of your reality by providing energy in the form of objective words. but you took that energy and created your own reality with it.
It could be said in a manner of speaking that this physical reality is our shared reality. but we all have individual perceptions which create individual experiences. the experiences we have are not shared. i might go windsurfing and you might go pray in a church.

now why did i experience the construct of windsurfing while you engaged in the construct of prayer?

Not correct. We are not discussing this physical reality. we are discussing the grandfathers individual reality. his experiences create his individual reality, and his beliefs create his experiences. so it could be said that his beliefs create his reality. now again, in terms of the grandfathers perception, it might be the exact same while "dead" as it was when he was "alive." this is created, like i said, by his beliefs.

Correct, and that person has chosen to "die" in the way they did so they would know objectively that they were dead. but if a person dies while percieving reality SUBjectively they might not be aware of that fact OBjectively, as is the case when a person "dies" in sleep or while under the influence of a drug. that is not always the case but many times.
only *you* define what your defining moment in this reality will be, through beliefs.
i keep trying to tell you that belief constructs are not "fake." they are just as real as the act of "dying." the beliefs im drawing on at this very moment to type these words are very real. they just arent physical objective "things" and in our mind, if it isnt a physical objective "thing"(object) then it isnt "real." yet you believe in concepts like "truth" and "perception" and "awareness." these things are REAL!

The concept of death is only inevitable because we believe it to be inevitable. i can try as hard as i want, i will not escape the grasp of a belief, and subsequent experiencing of the concept of death. but that does not mean it is not affected by our beliefs like everything else in life.
Thats the way belief works. There are facts for me, but no such thing as an objective fact.
Your beliefs are not objective. You can believe objectively that you are immortal as much as you want, but you will probably still die an objective death.

Can you think of a better way to exit this game of life? Do you not see that death is the only way for us to leave this mortal/limited/finite existance?
It is an objective link, i agree. but that means jack shit subjectively.

we both have physical bodies...its our common fate...its our link...start a spiritual journey...yada yada youve heard this all before
In your belief system.

You cannot escape belief my friend. Take it from someone whos tried
I already accept your belief system and i realize the reality of those beliefs. It seems YOU DO NOT, haha
They do, but they are all filtered through your belief constructs. There is no "chemical misfirings" in the brain, all reality is a choice of the individual, remember?

You choose the food you eat, and you choose the change in emotion you experience by eating that food.
I agree. And once we realize that we actually can control how we feel every moment our existence, compared to our present one, will seem very much like a utopia! You cannot control your emotions every second because you believe you cannot. And so it is for most of us humans. But that will be changing.
You believe you cannot control your emotions. If you had come across different objective information, perhaps a book about controlling your emotions, your beliefs might be different. But we cannot change that now. All you can do is realize your beliefs, ie realize what is hindering you from experiencing whatever emotion you choose, and you will start to make the change in belief.

Try it, man. It works. I can tell you from experience that it works. Im doing it right now.

edit- lol my response was too long for the system ;D

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Waves

So whats your point? Your pets dont wear clothes. your pets dont go swimming for enjoyment because they believe it might be a good time. hell they dont even know what time is. Us humans all look the same without clothes, if you havent noticed. But we choose to wear clothes, it is an expression of self through belief. We did not evolve a need to wear clothes, we simply choose to cover ourselves due to our beliefs in regards to sexuality and self. I might wear goth clothes and you might wear spandex. neither choice is good or bad, simply different.

Now why would people choose to wear different looking clothes? Why does one person wear a grateful dead t-shirt while another guy is wearing a marilyn manson t-shirt?And i am saying this is incorrect. You choose to be born. You choose to come here. And in making that choice you are also making the choice to die, for you cannot have one without the other. show me a human that has chosen to live and not die, or die and not live and i will admit that my ideas on beliefs are pure balogny!
But you do not question what makes people DO things in the first place?

it is belief and belief only my friend. death is just another choice. you cannot have the pleasure of living a life and then just "disappearing" into nothingness. You need an objective even to correspond with your subjective exit of the universe. hence, death.

Which might have been the point in your creating of this information in the first place, my friend. everything happens for a reason. You choose to give yourself this information, as did i. what you do with it is up to your beliefs.
The only difference being an individuals pre-disposition, ie beliefs

You are correct, you came across my post for a reason and created it just like i am now creating your posts for a specific reason. i get a huge kick of trying to find out those reasons personally. its a great exercise.
You will find no hostility from me if you offer none. What goes around truly does come around

As for the bolded part, i understand completely. You are choosing to be disagreeing with me and you are choosing to continue this conversation. and i will continue to return your energy as long as you choose to keep the connection going

Now THAT was a long post, and i have not smoked a single bud of weed today. im off

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Stairway

The worst part of human life is that we have learned how to think forourselves.. this creating arguments.

cocomota

We are all just a paracite to this world. Our only purpose is to eat sleep and fuck, with no regard to how much we comsume as long as it doesn't effect our ability to multiply. After you realize this all you can do is try and enjoy the life you have been given, because it will be over before you know it. I think religion is based on the fear of accepting that this is our fate. Why try and make it more than it is? If somebody only does good things out of fear of not meeting their creator, how does make them a good person? Why not just do good because you want to, and want others to enjoy their lives as much as they can?

"Let the lovin take hold"

JcPizwink

2 things:

1. why are there parasites like us on a world like this in the first place?
2. Do people do good things out of FEAR of the creator or out of LOVE for the creator? I think, like a lot of people, you're grouping all religious thought into one group led by the zealots and idiots who are on the news all the time spreading hate in the name of God.

I think the fact that you want to do good and help others enjoy their lives is a pretty good indicator that you believe in some sort of God concept. Otherwise, why aren't you just taking what you need and saying "fuck off" to everyone else? If nothing matters...if we're just parasites on this earth with no purpose, why do you think there is a difference between good and bad?

Actual questions here, not rhetorical.

hookedonkronik

Life is a school for our spirits, to experience and overcome the negative qualities that exist here on Earth, only to reunite with all of our loved ones from all of our lives that we've ever lived here on Earth. So in a sense, Reincarnation is the meaning of life, that is how our spirits grow to be stronger. In a deeper sense though, we all choose our goals and our blockades and barriers before we enter this life, and whether or not we achieve those goals and overcome those barriers is up to us.

__________________
"jews make money out of nothing, and in turn god allows them to pretend they are the one people (chosen by him of coarse) whov are destined to "rule the world...probably the universe too."

anaujiram

I think that life is no more than what people make of it. If you think there is a meaning of life, then there is one, for you at least. If someone does not think that there is a meaning of life, then there isn't one. Everything is just in our minds. There is just a good chance of "God" turning out to be a giant rabid aardvark as any image humans can concoct. If you think that God is a giant rabid aardvark, hey, by all means, go ahead and base your spirituality around that, but there's no need to force it on other people.

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BC Budman

Hypothetical situaiton: there is no god and there is no suchs thing as spirits souls or after life.

If this is the case which it could very well be then ther is absolutley no meaning ot life, not even reproduction.

Its just something that happened.

__________________

cocomota

You have some good points, and maybe i will end up believing some kinda "god" down the road, but for now i have seen the way some people can become so consumed with the need to please god, that it becomes like a drug to them. So much so that there judgement of reality becomes impaired by blindly believing anything that a religious authorty figure tells them to, withought having any thought of their own for fear of pursicution. I'm not saying this is true for everybody. This is just what I have observed in my experiences with religion on this earth so far. I just don't understand how one is given free will, but not allowed to use it? Or only use it as long as it follows set guidlines.

I'll try to answer you questions as open mindedly as i can and also try to keep your point of view in mind.

Q 1. I guess i really can't say for sure why. I think it is natural to wonder that. I think everybody does. Why does there have to be a purpose? Could it be possible that there isn't one except to make the most out of what we have. I do have to admit though, sometimes i try to accept that we are here because some other "being" other than us, exists. Then I'm left with the question "where did that "being" come from?" And lastly "this will most likely make me sound like a complete ignorant bastard" but to me it seems kind of selfish for something or somone to create something and say that if they don't love him/her and do everything they say, they will be punished, with whatever consequence that particular religion believes.

Q 2. If people did good out of love for a creator, shouldn't it be out of their own free will, because they want to? How this possible, when good is only what somebody tells you it is? And to not do so would mean your impending doom. I'm not saying it's not possible for someone to do good out of love for a creator. It just makes sense to me to do good to fellow man, for your fellow man. Not just to please a higher "being." This just happens to be the opposite of how i see most religions teach things.

The reason i don't "just say fuck off to everyone else" is that i do believe that "what you do, will come back to you" - Dizzy Rascal, in some form or another. And also i try to live by doing onto others as i would want done to me. This is because i think the only way for one to live peacefully, is if every one is peacefull. The reason i think there is a difference between good and bad is, because not everybody does to others as they would expect for themselves, for whatever reason. It is possible though i guess, that because everybody is different, what they expect from themselves might be different from what others would expect. Maybe the confusion caused by this is where good and bad comes from? Maybe it all started out of a misunderstanding? haha

I was happy to answer your questions as best i could. Please reply, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

hookedonkronik

for fucks sakes, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of spirits and ghosts have been discovered in this world. There is no need to prove they exist they already have been proven and have been seen for ages as long as humans go back.

Just because you do no research and jump to conclusuions i made in grade 6 doesnt mean your points are valid

__________________
"jews make money out of nothing, and in turn god allows them to pretend they are the one people (chosen by him of coarse) whov are destined to "rule the world...probably the universe too."