Mescalito

If there is not one true one then does that mean that all hold equal validity? People do experience different.. in fact complete opposite effects from the same belief/groups of beliefs? or do they? Under the assumptions of the scientific method it is found that someone can believe they are getting morphine when in fact they get sugar and yet still experience the effects of Morphine. One could then deduce that the difference between each belief is dramatic to say the least. Its significance ripples across the fleeting conscious minds of the universe. It says to me that clearly what i believe has a massive effect. on my perception of reality. I can then further deduce from that.. if im aware enough of what beliefs are formed within my localized mind i can use this directed awareness to affect their formation and taking it a step further.. removing them after formation. I now see clearly the tools of the trade for the manipulation of my reality. Of course I could be wrong.. but is their right and wrong at all.. agnostically there are neither.. it just is. heh strange what i just said.. ''there are neither''. Yes.. so.. thoughts?

M

Ego Tripping

Everything we "know" is ultimately traced to a source that is completely Unknown. This puts all Humans who ever lived, are living or will live on completely equal footing and ground. World Peace is attainable at this very second if this fact (the only fact we can conclusively prove) was embraced and exercised by all. The only reason we don't have that is people are fearful to embracing that Unknown that sits in front of all of us. Instead we ignore it and fill that Unknown with humble superstitions (and sometimes not so humble) to feel Security but as my gf says all the time, all security is an illusion.

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delta9THC

I'll have what you two are smoking!

I am a big fan of Decartes though and the idea beyond his Meditation seems to help me re-think the theories in which I have based my life on. I often times find myself going in circles and when this happens it helps me to think of Decartes premise that says let me take everything I've come to know (paraphasing here) and assume it to be false. Therefore I am forced to re-think every aspect of my life. Now for me it's not if I exist or not, but rather a means to help me look at where I have ended up in my life and that the reason I didn't have the outcome(s) that I wanted were because everything in which I did/done to arrive at these outcome where completely false. I was/am assuming that I arrived at d because I take a+b=c. However, if I look at a and b I realize that what they represent are more complicated then I first realized. I might always c, but what goes into c, is not constant. a can change, b change, or both can change. Therefore, when c is not what was expected, although it is tech. correct, I forget that what makes up a and b is not constant and therefore the c that I have choosen to follow has thus changed, although, it appears on the cover to still be c. However, when things don't work out I have to remember that maybe a and b have changed and now they are false even though I still to have the same c as I did before. If I redefine a and b, I redefine, even if it is only for a second. the c I am seeing is not the same c it was before and I have to constatly adapt to the ever changing a and b as well as c and what they all represent. With that mind, d is never d and the pattern in which d was arrived from, might or might not be completely false.

verklingen

I'm turning into a broken record, but as with absolutely everything it's all a question of perspective. No one perspective is any more or less valid than another. A belief, idea, theory, et cetera is a perspective just as being a dog, ant, bird, rock, planet, et cetera is. Can anyone say that the experience of being any of those things can be more or less valid than any other being experience? Of course not. Beliefs are like this also. They all exist and are therefor equal in merit as a perspective of the Infinite All.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Mescalito

^So when a records broken.. do you fix it? or just throw it out?

Nice thoughts all.

M

verklingen

^ Well, the message always seems to be on point so I don't see a reason to throw it out. My personal favorite track still seems to work, but do with me what you will fellows!

I've been thinking a lot about this concept lately. . . expect a thread soon.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Mescalito

If angle of perception has relevance to everything.. as it does.. is it logical for one to assume that others assume the same assumption? It seems through repetition that i can assume that you assume that most people dont assume that the angle of perception has much relevance to anything. Would i be right in saying that if everyone did assume its relevance one would stop telling people its so. The sky is blue!!! look look look! Attention! ''Whooooaaa'.. far out.. wait a sec.. we already knew that.. [sparks joint]''. So what im trying to say is that you record player will probably keep on going even if the record is broken.. until someone realises its broken..

One could also say that i went completely off topic in my own thread.. but equally so one could see that it like almost anything can have relevance if their is relevance perceived. Some connections are not always seen.. but there are many ways to see things differently [sparks joint][Consumes 40 capsules of dried cactus extract]... [ ].... [ ].... [Sits patiently]... [ ].... [ ].. .. . .

M

Waves

Yes
no two beliefs are the same, just like our fingerprints we create them all individually and uniquely. so no two experiences are going to be the same
Not remove. You dont remove beliefs, you simply change the ones you are using. In that sense, you are removing the influence of the belief on your life and allowing for a different influence. Which automatically creates different experiences. The problem with people is they do this backwards- they change what they experience while still holding on to the same beliefs! And they run into the same problems!
Correct! Im glad your starting to let yourself see your toolbox! Beliefs are extremely powerful things that influence our every action. But they are also extremely subtle in that you might not even know what belief you are engaging any given moment. It just might seem like you are living in "objective world." So analyzing your beliefs is sort of a complex thing to do. Once you analyze one belief, you find out that belief was simply an aspect of another, deeper rooted belief. So you accept that belief and you accept that you are engaging it for a reason and you decide to either change or not. I use the spider-web analogy all the time, but it really is valid. Our belief systems are like spider-webs. They are connected. Once you start un tangling one of them the rest naturally pop up into your awareness for you to analyze and accept/change.

http://transcripts.eliasweb.at/t_frames?session_nr=284

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Mescalito

^Less than a month ago after going to a temple i let a bird free from its cage. Of course they will fly back to the feeder later or just be too feable to fly anywhere far.. but that wasnt the point. When i did this I also thought of it as a symbol of letting go of negative beliefs.. the cage representing my localized mind. At this same time i got the number 13 at two separate days in two separate temples.

Yes i think if one wants to make a significant change then they must dig deeper.. get to the root of it so to speak.

Oh also i consider remove an OK word under the assumption that nothing is ever created nor destroyed.. only transfered. So when i say 'remove' im basically assuming it the same as 'change' or 'modify'.

M

Beyonder

No. I'll get back to this point later in this post.

Yeah, what I perceive and what I know are interconnected. My worldview and my apprehension are interlinked, meaning that, because I can alter my worldview, I can alter the way I perceive my own reality. I've been studying this stuff for years now... To me, it's the most interresting stuff there is.

A distinction between faculties of the mind and mere thoughts has to be made, though. Although applying our previous experiences to our present experience is a faculty of the mind, the beliefs and ideas projected within that faculty are not. Likewise, judgement itself is a faculty of the mind, while the judgements being made are not. The faculties of the mind are shared by all humans (maybe more creatures, I don't know), the beliefs and ideas contained in those faculties are not. This is important, since the faculties themselves can't be really changed, while the contents are pliable. Here's where the problem starts though. Since what is a faculty of the mind, what is a tool of thought and what is an idea? If there isn't a clear distinction between those very different mental phenomena, then defining what part of our mind (reality as we perceive it, in a 1st person perspective) is pliable remains rather mudled... Knowing what parts are mental phenomena and what parts are ideas show us that some tools of thought aren't mental faculties at all, mere specifically applied ideas, memories etc.
Like the notion of 'ego' for example: there really isn't a notion of 'who I am' constantly present in my awareness. Though when someone happens to ask, I just think about some properties of me I just randomly remember on the spot; the notion of 'ego', of 'who I am' is a tool of thought, not a mental faculty.

This also holds true for judgement, leading to your first point. All judgements are tools of thought, the medium is thought, applied in a specific manner. Judgement itself is not a mental faculty. In this sence, there truely isn't a 'good' without 'evil' or a 'high' without a 'low'; this duality is a property of the specific application of thought. Not of thought itself, but of the operation being performed with the medium of thought.

Now, 'truth' holds a special spot among judgements, since it's not just a one-way judgement. I judge about an idea weather it's true or not, but reality judges about weather my judgement is correct. Reality acts like a monitor on my ideas, regarding reality itself. If they are not congruent with my perception of reality, either the idea must be false or my perception is false... Since most people aren't hallucinating all the time, and most people see a very similar reality (Slight physiological differences can create slightly different sensory phenomena; think slightly damaged hearing through loud music, for example...), I think it's fair to say that if the ideas wich are held to be true (partially true, believed in, whatever) aren't congruent with the way reality is normally perceived through the senses (not the common beliefs, the common sensory perceptions), then the ideas are most likely false. Ideas about reality wich can't be checked through the senses or inferential reasoning (If the inference is valid) are outside of the domain of the human judgement, since there isn't an intentional object to judge. I just postpone judgement on those matters.


Manipulation of subjective reality is what philosophy and religion, all over the world, are all about. Religion (or any dogmatic ideology, like most political systems) delivers a pre-programmed worldview, while philosophy gives one the tools to operate ones own programming. Why no one cares is beyond me.

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He who lets the world, or his own portion of it, choose his plan of life for him, has no need of any other faculty than the ape-like one of imitation. He who chooses his plan for himself, employs all his faculties.

-John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create.

-William Blake

Waves

Gotta love those little signposts that you offer yourself

I have a thing with the doors, the band, and when im driving i will randomly think of the band or of jim or something and then within 30 seconds a doors song will come on the radio. This just happened tonight, i was thinking of meditation and that reminded me of the scene in the doors movie where ray, the keyboarder, is meditating. 5 seconds later alabama song came on. shrug.
Yeah...i see what your saying. Like in order to change the wheels on your car you must remove the old one and put a new one in its place. Youve changed an aspect of your car, the tire, which then changes the way the overall car operates. The car has changed, the old wheel has been removed

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

The Rev

If all faiths are invalid, then they are all equally valid, literally. Personally, I think most of these "different" faiths and beliefs are just more glue that holds together the essential illusion by which we live: that there is seperateness between things, and as a result, we are separate from everything else.

In fact, I see so much reinforcement of this basic belief (one that does not bear out in any way experientially), that I start to wonder if there isn't some motive behind it.



The Rev

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