A question for atheists - Page 3

DubStyle311 · 04-11-2007, 01:49 AM

Well, if you look at the evolution of the Catholic Church and faith, the Bible has never been the only inspiration for it beliefs. The Church itself, its leaders, and important figures have been refining the different beliefs for better or worse over its entire history.

For example, the entire sex-negative conotation in all of the Christian religions originated with Augustine. He saw sex and anything pleasurable as evil and his writings are some of the most influential when it came to the evolution of the church. The church is an incredibly slow to change institution. Over the hundreds of years that its existed, its leaders are constantly evolving their understanding of the faith.

In my opinion, the Vatican counsels were very positive changes. Across the board, the changes were made to make the religion and the mass more accessible to people, more inclusive, more understanding, and more loving. Wouldnt you agree that those teachings are more in line with what Jesus really stood for?

An interesting notion is that of "Papal Infallibility" - yet another grossly misunderstood teaching. Papal infallibility never meant that the Pope can do no wrong or what he says is official teachings. The definition is - One essential matters of faith and morals, the Church can not err. The church, meaning the collective members, preiests, and leaders. Furthermore, its only been officially used twice, one being the Immaculate Conception (Mary was born without original sin, not the virgin birth).

I know that realy didnt have anything to do with you're question, sorry, lol.

"God, assuming he's anything like the Bible says, has not changed. So why is it all right for humans to change what their general agreement on what's acceptable to him?"

Its not so much that we're changing the agreement on what acceptable to him - its more along the lines of our understanding of God is evolving as humans evolve. The Church has had some very poor leaders in the past that have used the institution for their own glory and advancement. Its also had some wonderful leaders, like John Paul II, who have done nothing but act as saintly towards people as possible.

Look at the earliest Church structure. It was completely different that what we had in 1000c.e. Completly differenat than what we had in 1700c.e. and Completly different that what we have in 2007c.e. Of course its just my opinion, but I feel that the recent changes are more in line with what the Catholic Church was originally.

I like what moldy said, to me religion isnt God, its a path to God. The Church teaches that God judges all of us only with forgiveness. If you are a good, loving person, you're going to be able to accept God's eternal love.

Man, lol, im really hitting all the points in this thread.

Pretty much all my posts in this thread were oxy fueled late night thoghts. There are many Catholics out there that would probably say im batshit insane and that none of this is true blah blah blah. Lots of Catholics hate what Vatican II did. But like I said, lots of catholics are clueless to what the official teachings of the Church are and have nothing past a child's understanding of their religion.

932ninja · 04-11-2007, 02:11 AM

I guess I am one of those anti religion people. It certainly seems like a way to feel like there is a better life after your current shitty one and that you will be forgiven for being a sinner!!! I say do good shit while you are here, enjoy every second and feed the worms, after all they do help the Horticulture.bongsmi lie bongsmilie
Really,whatever, to each his/her own.

ElectricLucifer · 04-11-2007, 03:08 AM

I'm not a really religious person, but if I know someone for a long time that is into any religion I don't push myself upon them unless they do so beforehand. I mean if someone wants to fight about religion it's fine with me, but I don't pick sides because I think all theisms are bullshit.. mostly because they are overly critical about how one should think and feel.. and pretty much, like I've said before, live up a stereotype. Even if I seem like an anti-religious troll on the net I just state what I see, and if you are into religion it is fine with me, but I learn to laugh at the person who's barking at me and lecturing me on how I should act, etc. That's all really.. and most of the time I don't give a crap. ^_^

theorangejulius · 04-12-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubStyle311

Why do I get the impression that some atheists, specifically those who feel the need to consistently attack any sort of religious belief, have made it their job to belittle, criticize, and "prove wrong" people that do have religion in their lives?

It seems rather odd to me. Some of their biggest points seem to be that religion is the the biggest evil on the planet and that religious type seek to impose their will on everyone else. The later complaint seems especially odd to me given that these same people generally do their best to tell you that your religion is nothing more than a creation of you weak mind and that you need to "wake up".

sounds like you've just talked to a few atheists who happened to be assholes as well. if atheists are consistently attacking, belittling, and criticizing religion, it's likely a reaction to the overwhelming influence that religion(s) has in our civilization.

i got a lot of shit about not believing in god throughout k-12, from classmates, coaches, and even teachers sometimes. various people have tried to 'save' me, beyond the door-to-door folks. on tv, we're exposed to televangelists saving people by dousing them in holy water or striking them down with coats in front of 5,000 people in a megachurch. religious groups often pressure censorship in the media. religious groups often trounce around campuses with giant billboards showing aborted fetuses. there are radical evangelists that stand on streetcorners and spew hellfire and curse the passerbys. wars aside, certain religions are partly responsible for some major global problems, including abstinence-only education. copies of the new testament were given to all students several times throughout my (public!) elementary and middle school years.

there are societal stigmas about atheists that, like it or not, have propagated through the generations and are still opressive to this day. if you're an atheist, forget a career in politics. recent polls have shown atheists as one of the most distrusted demographics in the nation.

overall, i don't think atheists are anywhere near as pushy about their lack of religion than religious people are about theirs.

i've never belittled or criticized religion or tried to convince religious folks that they're wasting their time, except in defense of my own lack of beliefs. i may make fun of religion with atheist friends, i may chuckle to myself when i see the televangelists, i may even laugh out loud at a shitty car laden with religious bumper-stickers, but i don't go out of my way to tell religious folks that they're wasting their time.

delta9THC · 04-12-2007, 02:21 PM

I would consider myself an atheists, but I don't share the views that you've outlined. I've probally heard some of the same crap, but never really paid much attention to it. They are just closed minded people who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they feel they need to attack others. For me, religion is something personal and shouldn't be judged or pushed on anyone. I don't believe, but I am not 100% sure that I am correct so I would never put down someone who believes in a certain religion. For me, religion is a life long journey and I might not never find the proof I need to believe. If you have, then rock on!

JcP · 04-12-2007, 03:09 PM

I might be speaking out of turn, but the difference between atheists and religious folk is that one believes in an external God and the other believes in no God but themselves (IE: there is no man in the sky and after I die, that's it.)

I think a hybrid of that is what I believe. I am, and we are I am.

delta9THC · 04-12-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

I might be speaking out of turn, but the difference between atheists and religious folk is that one believes in an external God and the other believes in no God but themselves (IE: there is no man in the sky and after I die, that's it.)

I think a hybrid of that is what I believe. I am, and we are I am.

I would never consider myself a god. Simply nothing after this biological life is over...the end.

JcP · 04-12-2007, 04:30 PM

^^ what exists when God dies?

If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in the concept of a God to make that statement?

You have formed a single image of what God is. That image of God is what you made that statement based off of. You don't consider yourself a God? What do you consider a God?

If I consider God to be a toad, then saying "I am not God" is indeed a true statement (ignoring my belief that we are all the same energy).

Therefore, you have said that "God" to you, is something you are not. Which is fine.

But God is not a single thing. As the Bible says: God is he who is called I AM. (or something to that affect)

My point is that God is a name for the everythingness. Of the single you. Of the collective "us," of the single cell, of the collective body...

If you believe that when you die that's it...your everythingness is done. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, you are God for yourself...

And as such, you will get your wish. If you seek nothingness, then you shall have it.

you choose right and wrong, you create your reality, you answer to no one but yourself.

The God of the Pope is not the God of the Bible.

One is an external force. The other is each of us, and all of us.

I suggest, instead of raging against a machine that is only defined by what you say it is, make the machine something you agree with.

If you don't believe in God, fine. But then believe in something cool. Why not? If you're right, then there's no harm in thinking delusional happy thoughts while you're here.

kamikazi89 · 05-07-2008, 10:55 AM

i have to disagree w/ there being no harm in delusional thoughts..
on topic: i think it's a combination of immaturity and arrogance..
actions speak louder then words

The Rev · 05-07-2008, 08:40 PM

People like this need an outlet for hostility, so they choose a well-defended position from which to attack. Reason favors an anti-religious argument, so it's easy to express hostility in the form of anti-religious arguments and expect not to lose. The idea is a subconscious hope that this will bring a sense of security (all those fights being started and won) but it never does.

Hostility is generally a sign of a life dominated by doubt and fear.

The Rev

Xil · 05-08-2008, 05:11 PM

"As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples."-Human, All Too Human

Thats kind of how i feel sometimes. I used to be pretty strongly catholic before i realized the truth that it was trying to control me not helping me.

Stone420 · 05-14-2008, 07:53 PM

i think and feel that it is a way of saving others from the wastefulness of religion i mean churches=money for some stupid fuck

Man in Black · 05-14-2008, 08:04 PM

Yeah that's right, all churches are only out to extort money from you

Parallax · 05-14-2008, 10:30 PM

god may or may not exist but he certainly doesnt give a shit

matthewmunari · 05-14-2008, 11:31 PM

OF COURSE THERE IS GOD..i had an N.D.E..............d ont wanna go into it now im too high, but YES there is another place after this.....it was so real it took my dad 6 months to convince me of the other version (correct) of the events.....but sorry to tell athiests, THERE IS ANOTHER PLACE, might not be heaven....but I've been there, and told to come back...

Stone420 · 05-15-2008, 08:06 PM

dude once i overdosed on oxys and my heart was stopped for liek 5 mins i mean i saw some crazy shit but i know it was jsut my brain dying and flashing though every possible image all at once its crazy

kamikazi89 · 05-16-2008, 09:27 AM

same here, only i was hit by a car..officer pfeffer there, don't remember much else other then the light

matthewmunari · 05-16-2008, 11:30 AM

hurt really bad, when your REALLY close to death i.e. heart stops.....you have full control and you can't tell the diff. between the 2....thats why I didnt know I got hurt..

SweetSativa · 05-16-2008, 11:32 AM

Sometimes hostility can be the result of abuse by the church. I can really think of no worse abuse than spiritual abuse!!! Sometimes there's a fear that one may be wrong, so (s)he will defend his position with a vengeance in effort to establish some type of truth and trust within his position (can be seen in 'believers' and nonbelievers). Personally I believe in God... I think this creation is far too miraculous to be random!!!!!!!! Coincidences (Celestine-type

) are too great to be ignored... messages have come to me... and come true! And I know that I'm not alone. Not only do I know that I'm not alone but I would venture to say that MOST of you have had experiences that have suggested to you that there's more than what we typically accept as reality... to reality. Hey, my body was possessed in order to save a child from drowning, a voice warned me before I was hit by a semi-truck, I sent a message to a loved one in a very unconventional way, and then there's my mother's NDE.

Anyway... who really knows?

kamikazi89 · 05-16-2008, 11:39 AM

as far as i can tell, the only difference is permanence(people do recreate the conditions "medically"..of course it's all hush hush waking life meets altered states..to use some media venaciluar)

04-11-2007, 01:49 AM	#41 (permalink)
DubStyle311 Old School Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: down the highway Posts: 7,229 Thanks: 0 Thanked 80 Times in 65 Posts	Well, if you look at the evolution of the Catholic Church and faith, the Bible has never been the only inspiration for it beliefs. The Church itself, its leaders, and important figures have been refining the different beliefs for better or worse over its entire history. For example, the entire sex-negative conotation in all of the Christian religions originated with Augustine. He saw sex and anything pleasurable as evil and his writings are some of the most influential when it came to the evolution of the church. The church is an incredibly slow to change institution. Over the hundreds of years that its existed, its leaders are constantly evolving their understanding of the faith. In my opinion, the Vatican counsels were very positive changes. Across the board, the changes were made to make the religion and the mass more accessible to people, more inclusive, more understanding, and more loving. Wouldnt you agree that those teachings are more in line with what Jesus really stood for? An interesting notion is that of "Papal Infallibility" - yet another grossly misunderstood teaching. Papal infallibility never meant that the Pope can do no wrong or what he says is official teachings. The definition is - One essential matters of faith and morals, the Church can not err. The church, meaning the collective members, preiests, and leaders. Furthermore, its only been officially used twice, one being the Immaculate Conception (Mary was born without original sin, not the virgin birth). I know that realy didnt have anything to do with you're question, sorry, lol. "God, assuming he's anything like the Bible says, has not changed. So why is it all right for humans to change what their general agreement on what's acceptable to him?" Its not so much that we're changing the agreement on what acceptable to him - its more along the lines of our understanding of God is evolving as humans evolve. The Church has had some very poor leaders in the past that have used the institution for their own glory and advancement. Its also had some wonderful leaders, like John Paul II, who have done nothing but act as saintly towards people as possible. Look at the earliest Church structure. It was completely different that what we had in 1000c.e. Completly differenat than what we had in 1700c.e. and Completly different that what we have in 2007c.e. Of course its just my opinion, but I feel that the recent changes are more in line with what the Catholic Church was originally. I like what moldy said, to me religion isnt God, its a path to God. The Church teaches that God judges all of us only with forgiveness. If you are a good, loving person, you're going to be able to accept God's eternal love. Man, lol, im really hitting all the points in this thread. Pretty much all my posts in this thread were oxy fueled late night thoghts. There are many Catholics out there that would probably say im batshit insane and that none of this is true blah blah blah. Lots of Catholics hate what Vatican II did. But like I said, lots of catholics are clueless to what the official teachings of the Church are and have nothing past a child's understanding of their religion. __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Last edited by DubStyle311; 04-11-2007 at 02:10 AM.

04-11-2007, 02:11 AM	#42 (permalink)
932ninja Hawaiian Kine Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: paradise Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	AHH Good ole' Religion I guess I am one of those anti religion people. It certainly seems like a way to feel like there is a better life after your current shitty one and that you will be forgiven for being a sinner!!! I say do good shit while you are here, enjoy every second and feed the worms, after all they do help the Horticulture.bongsmi lie bongsmilie Really,whatever, to each his/her own.

04-11-2007, 03:08 AM	#43 (permalink)
ElectricLucifer YaHookan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Here. Posts: 46 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm not a really religious person, but if I know someone for a long time that is into any religion I don't push myself upon them unless they do so beforehand. I mean if someone wants to fight about religion it's fine with me, but I don't pick sides because I think all theisms are bullshit.. mostly because they are overly critical about how one should think and feel.. and pretty much, like I've said before, live up a stereotype. Even if I seem like an anti-religious troll on the net I just state what I see, and if you are into religion it is fine with me, but I learn to laugh at the person who's barking at me and lecturing me on how I should act, etc. That's all really.. and most of the time I don't give a crap. ^_^ __________________ ...these woods... ...séan dia do íon bua...

05-07-2008, 08:40 PM	#50 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,674 Thanks: 4,716 Thanked 5,062 Times in 2,710 Posts	People like this need an outlet for hostility, so they choose a well-defended position from which to attack. Reason favors an anti-religious argument, so it's easy to express hostility in the form of anti-religious arguments and expect not to lose. The idea is a subconscious hope that this will bring a sense of security (all those fights being started and won) but it never does. Hostility is generally a sign of a life dominated by doubt and fear. The Rev __________________ "You're seriously flying close to the fag-sun, icarus." -Flamingnun

05-08-2008, 05:11 PM	#51 (permalink)
Xil OD'ing on sobriety Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mizzura Posts: 3,292 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 993 Thanked 1,108 Times in 687 Posts	"As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples."-Human, All Too Human Thats kind of how i feel sometimes. I used to be pretty strongly catholic before i realized the truth that it was trying to control me not helping me. __________________ Life is a waste of time and time is a waste of life, so get wasted all the time and have the time of your life

04-12-2007, 02:21 PM	#45 (permalink)
delta9THC Anyone seen my cheese? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 583 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I would consider myself an atheists, but I don't share the views that you've outlined. I've probally heard some of the same crap, but never really paid much attention to it. They are just closed minded people who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they feel they need to attack others. For me, religion is something personal and shouldn't be judged or pushed on anyone. I don't believe, but I am not 100% sure that I am correct so I would never put down someone who believes in a certain religion. For me, religion is a life long journey and I might not never find the proof I need to believe. If you have, then rock on!

05-14-2008, 07:53 PM	#52 (permalink)
Stone420 Jedi Join Date: May 2008 Location: pa Posts: 52 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	i think and feel that it is a way of saving others from the wastefulness of religion i mean churches=money for some stupid fuck __________________ Purple Kush til i die

05-14-2008, 08:04 PM	#53 (permalink)
Man in Black willie d Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: dayton,ohio Posts: 4,816 Thanks: 2,928 Thanked 1,249 Times in 835 Posts	Yeah that's right, all churches are only out to extort money from you __________________ Budweiser buckles and soft faded Wranglers and each night begins a new day, if you can't understand him and he don't die young, he'll probably just ride away.

05-14-2008, 10:30 PM	#54 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,630 Thanks: 131 Thanked 497 Times in 269 Posts	god may or may not exist but he certainly doesnt give a shit __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

05-15-2008, 08:06 PM	#56 (permalink)
Stone420 Jedi Join Date: May 2008 Location: pa Posts: 52 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	dude once i overdosed on oxys and my heart was stopped for liek 5 mins i mean i saw some crazy shit but i know it was jsut my brain dying and flashing though every possible image all at once its crazy __________________ Purple Kush til i die

05-16-2008, 11:32 AM	#59 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	Sometimes hostility can be the result of abuse by the church. I can really think of no worse abuse than spiritual abuse!!! Sometimes there's a fear that one may be wrong, so (s)he will defend his position with a vengeance in effort to establish some type of truth and trust within his position (can be seen in 'believers' and nonbelievers). Personally I believe in God... I think this creation is far too miraculous to be random!!!!!!!! Coincidences (Celestine-type ) are too great to be ignored... messages have come to me... and come true! And I know that I'm not alone. Not only do I know that I'm not alone but I would venture to say that MOST of you have had experiences that have suggested to you that there's more than what we typically accept as reality... to reality. Hey, my body was possessed in order to save a child from drowning, a voice warned me before I was hit by a semi-truck, I sent a message to a loved one in a very unconventional way, and then there's my mother's NDE. Anyway... who really knows? __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

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