Canuck Wisdom

Negative thought patterns are indeed bad, because we are always collecting information on our environment, our circumstances and our mental organization, conscious or programed, the abstraction of events. When you characterize experiences as negative, its like your spending time developing those skills and habits.
As if all time, all thoughts, because they happen, are a part of the exercise of becoming who you are.

Now, this experience is based around the beliefs about real events that characterize those events, making them positive or negative. The individual who has the experience surely sees it in their own light, but this does not mean the event itself experienced was not objective.

Even mental things could fall under this category 'objective'. If something is a common understanding, it is experienced by the individual as a common understanding and compelling them to understand likewise. Therefore, this understanding is an objectively shared event, between those who experience, but apparently, also create.

So, this is basically my argument for an objective reality. I hope it made sense, I wrote it as a break from my schoolwork because I hit a single b and got way more stoned than expected, needed a break and had some negative thoughts about earlier events.

I make a few assumptions it seems to me here. One being that there is an individual with a soul sort of idea which is the 'you' that experiences objective and subjective, and knows on some level when a judgment is made or when something is accepted for what it truly is.

I also think this understanding makes a good case for the importance of a good belief set, or habit.
One that does not enable mental traps which keep the truth of objective events unrelated to your interpretation of it (these mental traps being aspects of the 'ego').
It is my, likely biased opinion, that these mental traps (which remove you from truth, therefore generating confusion, frustration and related symptoms) are best avoided through love.
By forgiving others, you don't get caught up on emotionally generated opinions and acknowledge their behavior for what it is.
By having grace, faith, you accept who you are and the world around you, not getting emotionally snagged on your role, but seeing who you truly are and why its perfect.
Because reality is perfectly reality, perfectly true, unflawed by its nature, it must be unconditionally loving. Unconditional love doesn't lie or take anything away from you it tells the perfect truth. By sharing in love we gain the loving understanding of perfect truth.

In this way we are closer to objective reality, not abstracting real events too far out of focus for emotional or pre-conditioned reasons, but understanding and being close to the truth.

Stoned ramblings for ya'll anyways, I hope I conveyed what I am trying to say.

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verklingen

duality is a strange beast. there's not really such a thing as negative thought patterns, i don't think. you always have thoughts that are neutral objectively, but they can either be aligned or misaligned with the event to which you apply them. if they are aligned you maintain balance, if they are misaligned you maintain imbalance. we are creatures of habit, and our thoughts are not excluded. make it your habit to maintain balance and you will be more comfortable with your life. it's about responsibility. take responsibility for your thoughts. guard your mind and you will guard your joy.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Waves

what it comes down to are judgments and associations.

are you aware of when you are judging every second of every day and what those judgements are? usually they stay on the fringe of our attention, not getting any actual recognition until an event calls those judgements into question. every past experience we have had we judge automatically and store it away in our memory as an association. and when it comes time to create new, to experience new, we draw upon the old associations because thats all we really have. i dont think it matters whether reality is subjective or objective in that context. whether or not that experience was bad because it was actually objectively bad or whether it was bad because you judge it as bad is irrelevant. it was bad for you.

then it becomes "why are things bad" and that really is a complicated topic. we hold preferences, and our preferences judge our experiences automatically. We hold beliefs, and beliefs affect how we perceive reality and affect our judgments.

the important thing, imo, is to be aware of yourself and your preferences, so when an experience comes along that you see as "bad" you are aware enough to recognize why it was bad for you, and choose not to experience that any more. its when we ARENT aware that we create conflict. When we arent aware of our beliefs, our preferences, our judgements, etc.

so people can objectivelly share experiences and understandings. but does that mean that the understandings and experiences themeslves are objective?

i look at it this way. no matter what belief or experience or whatever we are dealing with, EVERY individual deals with that belief or experience in their own way, and has their own perception of that belief/experience. thus the belief might be objective, but the perceptions dealing with that belief are subjective and thus different for every person on this earth. we're all wonderfully unique.

subjective/objective, its semantics. same with good/bad. and same with truth. all these words can be twisted to meet any kind of objective meaning that you wish to assign to them. whats important to me is am i experiencing what i want to experience, and if not, what are the judgments/beliefs/attitudes/perceptions that are stopping me from that. and then it becomes a matter of becoming aware of those judgments/beliefs/etc and changing them to my preference.

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Canuck Wisdom

Well put.

And Waves I appreciate what your saying too. When I wrote this I knew there were holes in it, or valuable critical perspectives, but I didn't really have the energy to fully route them out. This has helped draw out the core truths.

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verklingen

^^find the best fit, in other words.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Canuck Wisdom

I feel as though absolute truth, or objective reality is an all loving reality. And I have considered this before, but I just cannot seem to find the paramaters to express why I feel this way.

I do belive though, in an objective reality, even in tandum with subjective (are paradoxes not indicators of higher truths?), and one that is unconditionally loving and therefore perfect.

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verklingen

if in this belief loving and accepting can be used interchangeably i wholeheartedly agree, reality is perfect. this follows as a matter of course another belief of mine, which is that any life which is unconditionally accepting is also perfect. that wording is a bit misleading though, because all lives are inherently accepting, without condition, of the experiences which make them up and therefore all lives are perfect. the trick is being aware that it's perfect, and living it with that in mind.

cuz you're a microcosm of reality, ya know? self-similarity and all that jazz.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Waves

cool! also, im not trying to point out holes or attack but just share my own perspective. if our perspectives align at some points, thats great, and if they dont, thats fine too!

truths, and beliefs, i find them interesting. some people look for so much truth outside of themselves that they totally ignore whats going on inside. as humans we arent designed to work off of truth or objectivity, imo. we can focus on that, and we can work towards it, but it is not part of our purpose and reason for existence, or even existence itself. our truths are relative to where we are, who we are, when we are, etc, and outside of these variables truth is totally irrelevant. i think if humans spent less time worrying about some objective standard of truth that lies outside of them and more on their OWN standard of truth that lies INSIDE of them, we could be much more efficient.

its sort of shocking to hear, but we DONT need to agree! we are free to use any belief we wish. and the important thing is NOT truth or accuracy in those terms, its fulfillment and happiness and love and all that fun stuff. are YOU happy with the way you see the world, are YOU happy with yourself, are YOU happy with what your doing. etc.

its sort of like, when your playing a game, or watching a movie, are you worried about truth and accuracy? personally i hate people who point out shit like that in movies. because the focus is on fun and entertainment and joy for me, not on accuracy or truth. and its the same for the rest of my life.


im just sorta brainstorming here, but anytime anyone starts talking about belief and truth i go off. i would be a philosophy major right now if it werent useless outside of school

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Waves

i agree. and i think maybe it has to do with a dimension of interconnectedness that we simply are not aware of while we are alive, playing the game, so to speak. i feel this on psychedelics alot, the sort of "all is one" feeling, of complete unity and knowing. while we dont exist in that state all the time, it does exist and that reality where consciousness is un-separated is one of love (though not how we define love in human terms, affection) and complete harmony.

thats sort of how i see it

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

reverie

I feel existence is far too complex for any such generalizations. Is that in itself objectivity? That is a very significant question. In absence of titles, labels and generalizations, perhaps that is where purity and truth lie.

Reason why language seems to never suffice. Far too abstract, far too structured. The dynamic rhythm of experience never seems to be justified by our methods of measurement.

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dissolve popular detachment

AeDeAeMn0886

As humans everything we see, do, and know is subjective. Reality is determined by the mind as the subject of our experience. Thinking completely objectively I would have to say is impossible. To think objectively means "having reality independent of the mind", which, without our minds, we would not be thinking at all.

AeDeAeMn0886

We see objects but we dont trully know objects. We dont see 99.99% of the things that make up a tree for example. Whats inside of the tree we dont see, the protons , neutrons, electrons, cell membrane, etc. We really dont even know ourselves or the things around us. If we trully knew ourselves we would know when we were going to get sick before it happened. I think what causes insecurity is the inacceptance of the fact that we really dont know ourselves completely.

Canuck Wisdom

It seems to me that there is something to agree on, having experiences that share many similar themes (life on earth) and as humans are social creatures, some degree (how much is debatable..) of agreeing on things to generate a united world culture. Not homogenized, but united in basic good, basic positive energy.


But is the experience everything?

In my experience, there seems to be other entities like mine, that have some sort of dual nature in my experience and in their own subjective interpretations. Not to mention things I don't, or maybe even can't know.

That said I think there is something objective that unites us, perhaps all being part of the same universe (i.e one body, one love) and acknowledging that will help humble us and make accurate decisions on how best to live our lives (free from insecurity and trouble with other humans/life).

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Waves

yep, objectivity does exist, but as everything else it exists as an idea, a belief, that one can align with or not. that idea might be objective, but the nature of our perception and the basic function of how we work is in a subjective manner. we all relate to ideas/concepts/beliefs differently. and that is where we create conflict, because we think that we must all relate to these ideas the same way, or we all must see life the same way. while i do believe that we are all connected, and consciousness is one united "thing" in the end, this is certainly how it not appears to us. i refer to this contradiction or paradox as "playing the game." we are right now in the game and while your playing the game you have to totally immerse yourself in it so that you wont know its a game. i think consciousness does this naturally, i think right now we are playing a game and we're not aware that its just a game. and behind every game there exists a framework of guidelines or rules that you must agree to to play the game. our rules are stuff like gravity, matter, mass, time, etc. while we're playing the game we're too immersed to realize these are just our rules we've created arbitrarily for our game.

so we create alot of conflict that way, we take the game too seriously and we create conflict over not realizing...we're just playing a part. theres plenty of stuff for us to agree on, sure, we both see reality in pretty similar ways. but theres also alot of stuff to disagree on. these are what preferences are. you like apples i like oranges. and thats fine, theres no reason to create conflict until one of us takes ourselves so seriously that we start saying "apples are the only good food!" and stuff like that.

in essence what it comes down to is being aware of your preferences, knowing what you want, and just allowing other people what they want. the more you focus on what you want and less on other people, the less conflict you create. but here we get into beliefs concerning selfishness and what is and what isnt appropriate as far as focusing on yourself goes. we ambush ourselves and say that its bad to be selfish and its bad to worry about yourself and focus on yourself...but in actuality thats all you can really do in life. conflict is created when you focus outside of yourself, when you're focused on other peoples beliefs or expectations or behavior. so we'll say its bad to be selfish and then we'll spend our time worrying about other peoples wants and expectations and behavior when the easiest way to cease conflict is to just focus on yourself and what you really want.

imo.

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Canuck Wisdom

I think I understand what your saying, and agree with the moral sentiment, or personal mental health sentiments of what your saying. But the semantics at the very least...
...bother me. This seems close to self, or ego-worship. Making your 'god' into yourself when you know there is an outside truth to be acknowledged.

If you worship (concentrate, give value to, acknowledge) only your perspective, as important as it is to nurture a healthy one, your missing the boat of togetherness and truth, which we yearn for as social, conscious beings generating simultaneously subjective and objective manifestations of reality.

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Waves

not to say that you cannot acknowledge other peoples perspectives. the thing is many people today aren't quite clear on their own perspective. if there WAS an outside truth that existed i would of course agree, but the way i see it, we DECIDE our truths. we decide who we are, and in turn which truths and guidelines rule our behavior. this is how subjective perception works. truth does not lie objectively outside of us. what lies outside of us is matter-landscape, trees and geese and the sun. what lies inside of us is our perspective and our belief and how we interpret that outside reality, and in turn, express outwardly into it.

what i think you're getting at, and the aspect i agree with, is that its healthy to expose yourself to multiple perspectives. acknowledging your perspective and being clear on that is important, but if you dont balance that out with input from that "external" reality that exists of other peoples perspectives (thats all that the external reality really is for us, other peoples perspectives) then you stay stagnant, you cant change and adapt.

its not that we should worship our egos. its that we should pay attention to them. what we're used to doing is paying attention to other people, other peoples opinions and beliefs. this creates conflict because then attacks can occur on your own beliefs and opinions, and you dont realize in that moment that your own perspective is your own perspective, its valid for you, its your truth in that moment. instead we perceive other people as attacking our beliefs, attacking our validity, and we respond in energy.

many people today are so inundated with beliefs they have acquired externally that they arent aware that they can even have their own perspective. we arent aware of the power and function of beliefs, and so we create conflict easily in alot of areas because we perceive ourselves as being attacked or threatened in those areas.

what im saying is, basically, that if people were clear on their own perspective, confident in that, and aware that there is no one else that can threaten that, alot less conflict would occur, and indeed i think this is the direction we're moving in as a species. i think more emphasis is going to be placed on belief and its function, and less on TRUTH because truth implies some objective standards of behavior or belief that we all must adhere to. while objectivity might exist around us in the form of static trees and static bodies, and static buildings, and millions of floating atoms surrounding you giving this illusion that all this stuff IS static and un-moving, subjectivity ALSO exists around us in the form of perspectives and beliefs and attitudes and opinions and all that stuff.

heres the kicker, to me, you probably wont agree but this is my perspective. human experience isnt about truth anyway, its about emotion and sexuality and discovering yourself and having fun and love and music and all that stuff! the outside truth should only be acknowledged in so much as you WANT to acknowledge it to achieve your optimal human experience, because thats what we're here to do!

bit long winded, but thanks for this topic. youve made me think!

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Canuck Wisdom

hehe

So are you in the Chicago burbs then Waves? If so, tell your municipality to stop sucking all the water from the great lakes! (my understanding is chicago is among the worst)

I think reality as we know it, as the experienced world or trees and people and atoms is only created, only exists because we know it. But we are material bodies too, our faculty of converting sensory experience into understanding only takes into account the things we can sense and our brains processing of it. And hence, reality as we know it is created by us experiencing it. And this is the subjective experience that is so important in the ways your showing.

That said, our creation of this reality through experience does not mean the only reality is that which we are, say scientifically (if you know what I mean... able to acknowledge directly through our senses, as opposed to a conscious understanding that there are things our higher essence of consciousness cannot percieve because of the limits of our experience generating sensory bodies/avatars in 'the game') aware of is the only relevant one.
Even things we are aware of, but just don't think about, like how much society molds the way we think before we even are capable of having developed a perspective. A mold so basic we are almost entirely unable to see through it.
These things that we are unaware of as being our perspective, and the things about the universe/all that is/god that we cannot know because of our limited material avatars exist despite our consciousness of them, even if there was no 'reality' as we know it being generated by our experiencing it.

It seems to me waves, you believe we are all a part of the one universe and by saying we are just playing the game you mean that an aspect of the whole is embodied in a limited material vessel for a limited time.
If this is so, then there is a whole oneness, which has a true nature that can be acknowledged. The subjectivity and proper management of the human experience is important, but it cannot be superceded by believing it is the end all when we know (making assumptions about you here but anyways), when we know that we are just a part of this one, manifesting our little niche role.
Convinced we are separate, but really just playing our part of the game, it is the gift of conscious reflection that we can live our lives with the acknowledgment of the true oneness we are a part of.

Too much value on solely an individuals perspective (though, I know, our experience is all we have to base this on, besides trying to achieve higher consciousness') is what you might call satanism. It worships the self over all others and is a dangerous road because it puts all judgement in your hands, making difficult the virtues of humility, empathy and optimistic faith (faith in a universe that loves you, instead of your own ability [admitedly limited as a material mortal aspect of the whole] to control your fate).


You also touched on an interesting thought I've had over the past few years. I think the entire physical world, which, as I was saying is not everything, is the sexual manifestation of existence. Our senses are related to sexuality and reproduction, and all things can be seen to be in a way as well.
Kinda a tangent, but throwing it out there.

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Waves

great response! im in the mood for some discussion this lazy sunday
yeah ive actually heard a bunch of shit about this. not only are we sucking water from the lakes but the water we process is pretty dirty. i think theres actually health problems arising from it. shitty.
Very well said. I know exactly what you mean. Some people call this the subconscious, whatever, but i think what really happens are we build automatic responses into our behavior. the neat think here, is that these automatic responses are all based on beliefs that, as you say, we might not CONSCIOUSLY "align" with.

When i talk about belief,btw, i do NOT mean it in the sense of a thought. I mean it in the sense of your perspective, what attitude/perspective you have chosen in relation to any particular objective concept or idea. Beliefs can be interpreted by our thoughts, but often times our thoughts are doing their job of interpreting physical data into something we can understand objectively. Sometimes when our attention is on future or past, our thoughts are translating that. You think alot, im sure you get how it works. Beliefs are not something you think, they are built into your perspective in a very subjective manner.

I like the way you've stated it here, im just sorta thinking out loud
Yes!

The tricky part- while it exists as part of our..."subjective nature" i'll say, it exists are part of who we are, this "true nature" exists independent of our beliefs and perception. so when we interpret our perception through our beliefs...we dont always perceive that interconnectedness. this is why we arent objectively aware of our interconnectedness at times...its because we're literally not perceiving it!

So while i do believe that we are in this limited vessel, so to speak, i also believe that we CHOOSE to forget this truth for the purposes of the game. Its not that its not there and its not that you can acknowledge it, its just that while we're playing the game thats not whats important to us. whats important to us IS the "ego" and the material world and our individual perception, and most importantly, our beliefs. Thats whats real to us.

Now the reason i place emphasis on paying attention to yourself, why im talking about this stuff in the first place, (not necessarily being selfish but paying attention to yourself) is because 99% of our conflict is the result of simply not paying attention to yourself and focusing your attention on external people, circumstances, or beliefs that state any kind of "should." we set up roadblocks for ourselves, and when we encounter them we wonder how they got there!
Interesting! Actually its sort of scary because going by what you describe i seem to be a satanist! That would be totally the opposite of what i believe and any further than that i believe would be arguing, so i wont go there. I am also a believer that if you DO put total trust/faith in yourself and your own ability you can accomplish anything you want. but that is my belief. To me its a matter of choice, and what belief you choose to align with to create the reality you want.(yes i am a 'you create your own reality' weirdo ) If you choose to believe that the universe, (which is an external projection of YOU, the individual) will provide, and supply you with ability, that is your choice. you can accomplish just as much with that belief as a person who believes in their own individual fate and ability.

I believe at our core we are explorers. And explorers most of all with preferences, which is another way of saying variety. Some people prefer oneness, and exploring those beliefs of non-separation. Some people prefer religion, the idea that God is a separate force from themselves, and they enjoy exploring those beliefs. Some people believe god is within, and they explore those beliefs. Its just a matter of what game you want to play to me!
Thats pretty similar to what i believe! I think physical universes are created for consciousness, which is us, to explore different concepts/experiences. Ours, at least our race, is definitly a sexual race, incorporating different genders and different orientations and so on. And sexuality is reflected all around us in nature in our plants and animals. Even in our own creations, of music and art and stuff like that. Our attention automatically moves in conjunction with our sexuality and gender and orientation, in accordance with our five senses. To me creation itself is divine, and it is all a divine exploration of consciousness, our experience being one tiny little sliver in that huge (undivided) pie.

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

AeDeAeMn0886

Is the physical universe created for our consciousness or is our consciousness created for the physical universe ?

AeDeAeMn0886

^actually a question for waves but anyone can answer. I actually believe that are consciousness were created specifically for the universe, because the universe has been around longer than us. But thats just my take on it...