SageTree

So that is the line from the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6:12

A story:

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked ,"Lord how many times share I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?

Jesus answered," I tell you not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Therefore the kingdom of heaven is a king who wanted to settle the accounts with his servants. As he began settlement, a man who owned him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he couldn't repay the debt, the master ordered that his wife and children be sold to pay the debt.

The servant fell to his knees before him ' Be patient with me' he begged, ' and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who own him a hundred denarri. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ' Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him ,' Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

Then the master called the servant in. ' You wicked servant,' he said,' I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned to him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all that he owned.

This is how my Heavenly Father will treat each one of you unless you forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart"

Matthew 18: 21-35



This is a story of mercy and forgiveness. Some of the greatest gifts that we all have in ourselves, if we look deeply with compassion and love. I just wished to share this is with you all. I really don't have a question to pose.

There are many instance of forgiveness in my life, but one that has had a profound impact in my life was forgiving my Father for the way he treated our family growing up. I didn't talk with him for almost 5 years of my life other than once a year when he would call.

One day in the shower, I do most of my best ah ha-ing there, I thought to myself ' I have never held a grudge in my life, other than with this man, so why should I start with my own Father. ?' The realationship had bothered me for years and years, while not talking to him seemed to be the right thing for my pride, it was the wrong thing for my true nature, which is to love. That evening I called my Dad and explained to him kindly why I had chosen not to talk with him for so long, and that I was deeply effected by how he acted in my life and that sometimes in suprising ways it still greatly effected my thought processes. I said that I knew how his homelife was growing up and that he wasn't to the degree his Father before him was and that was commendable, and that his struggles for 'normalicy' must have been more than mine. I understood that those where the tools that he had to raise us with and I am sorry for the hurt child within him, and that I'm sure that he did the best that he could and that I forgave him. I told him my thought process and that I thought today would be a good day to start having a realationship again.

He said that he too had been through the same thing with his Father growing up and this it took years of distance, for him to come to know his Father again. And that he knew in his heart why I hadn't talked to him in so long. That is what hurt his heart the most, is that he had done the same thing his Dad had done, and that was hurt his family and drive them away. I reiterated that I forgave him and I could only imagine that it must be hard to raise kids begining at 22, let alone the challeges that face him personally. He had spent many lonly years wondering about us, and I said that it truely tore me apart as well, staying committed to my pride. And that it had gotten neither of us far.

For me this was the begining of something new with in myself as well. After that time I was much more forgiving to many people in my life, mostly myself, who I was always the hardest on. Having compassion for other can be challenging but cultivating that to yourself is the hardest.

I've done some things I consider crumby in my life and people have forgiven me for that, which I am thankful. This ties into the story for me because once I realized that I had the capacity to forgive something so large in my life, that it became so easy to come to awareness, and have compassion for the reasons that people make mistakes, and they truely deserve forgiveness and all the love and support you can give them. This was my lesson in forgiveness, in realation to the moral of this story.

I'd like to say that my Dad and I had a burgoning new realationship and maybe we have. I have always lived far from my home town as soon as I could, maybe not for healthy reasons, but now its just a life style. I do call my Dad more than I used to and we have alot to talk about now. This Sept I sent him a birthday card of a man standing on the dock of a lake with the sun is coming up. It made me think of him and how he looked after a night of night fishing, and how he looked over that lake in the early morning hours, and how he came alive in the woods and that he tought me that sanctuary it provides for healing. Those truely where good times with my Dad, and I wanted to tell him that there are good memories in my head as well and that he is important to me and that I love him. He said that story I wrote in his card made him feel like the man on the dock looking out on Creation, with hope and love. I don't get to spend alot of time with Dad because of the distance, but I know now that he thinks about me everytime that he goes to the woods or sees a sunset that he has taught me something and given me a gift. That is a small refuge for my Dad to live in, and ultimatly seems to make him feel better about our realationship, or atleast where he stands with me. So now we always talk about our trips and share pictures. He even helped my buy a pair of snow shoes. Lately he has been typing me emails so full of love I couldn't have imagined that it was in my Father's heart, and that truely makes me feel good too.

The moral I guess is that forgiveness is the beging to a realationship, or rekindling. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting, it just means setting that aside so you can move on. Trust takes time to get to , but you can't reach that with out taking the first step towards it. And in this story of Jesus, what he is teaching to me is that the Biblical, "ALL POWERFUL GOD"! Even though He doesn't need to, He limits His power to forgive little old me, for the things that I do.

Do I believe in hell and heaven......yes, metaphorically, like a Karma, the consciousness following and arising, good and bad, later, in this life. I have been to both because with out forgiveness life for me was hell. And the new love that arose for that has been a heaven sent on Earth to me and has brought so much peace and furthuring of the love that I know I can give. Because if the "All Powerful" can take time for me, then it's with in me as a part of God to be able to do that for others, and that I am judged and forgiven by my peers ,who also share that same piece of "God", so I am being judged by the same measure that I give out.

Its like when someone says 'I was just as nice to that guy as he was to me' Imagine if you were nicer no matter what. What could come of compassion, that pre-forgiveness that people are doing the best with what they can, or what they have to give, or the consciousness in which they do and don't live. People can only reach the capacity they are aware of, so why not help create a new reality for people by being that truest actualized human you can be. The Christ/Krishna/Buddah-Consciousness is with in you because it is with in God and God is within All, us and them, it is the Dharma, the 'laws' of why the cookie crumbles the way it does.

This is my belief and what I take from the story. I don't believe that God is like its said in the Bible to the literal sense, but the Power of the allagory of God, in this story resonates with as much power as is explained in the literal translation. And I can only reason that if people can think to put this Perfect Idea into words and I can only reason that it IS a good way to live, Do I really care to what degree its true of what God is? I have a realationship with what I feel is union with the universe, so these stories speak to my heart mind and soul.


Thanks for reading that all folks. This became rather long, but is a story I wanted to share with you all, about myself, my life and the spiritual gifts that are constantly being revealed to me on my Path to Actualizing my Humaness and the Pure Potentiality of Perfection I carry in me every day.

I would love to hear your story if you like.

Loving Kindess
SageTree

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Dandaweedman

That's a very good story. I like the ones with happy endings, or looking to be anyways.

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The Rev

I don't care for the insinuation that God will hand me over to jailors to be tortured if I don't forgive others. There are better reasons to forgive than to avoid punishment.



The Rev

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SageTree

Thanks for putting that out there Rev, That is a point that I have ment to talk about. Because I certainly don't feel that is at all what it literally going to happen. Going with my perception of God in/is Us idea, we will be tourtured ourselves for not forgiving while we are living. For me in this case I wished to imply that I was in a personal tortured state.

I maintain my usage of the word God because I wish to use it defining what I mean by it and trying to bring my deffanition to the table to keep the definates unclear and meaning deep and rich indivually.

Really really thanks for bringing that up. By me saying that I thought yes to Heaven and Hell, perhaps I thought it was clear that I saw them as metaphorical states of mind. I have no certainty what happens when we pass from this body, weather we are soley that. No pun on Souly/Soley, but maybe I just made one. Anyways other than personal ' paranormal' activity stories aside. I'd also like to open Agnostic as a deeper more profound open ended passion of belief. Honk if you don't know type bumper stickers.

Thanks for proof reading, and I don't mean a pun on proof either.

Much love and respect to you
SageTree

I'm always your grasshopper Rev! Thanks for that.

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SageTree

Did this bomb because I quoted the Bible?

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Xil

In all honest, probably that and the Collin Powell factor. I'll try to give it a go, but im a pretty extreme atheist, and often am not very tolerant of religion, especially Christianity (its something im working on). So i'll try not to say anything offensive....
...ok i just read the actual whole first post and nothing at all entered my mind that shouldn't leave my mouth...thats rare when it comes to religion!

This really stuck out to me. Its like by showing kindness your not taking from your own well, only adding towards others. Negativity (or lack of positivity) towards others is really negativity towards self imo. Bettering yourself and bettering others is inherently correlated. Advancing yourselves by being detrimental to others isn't a real advancement, only in the material and false sense of the word.

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SageTree

You mean like offensive in general or cursing about something?

I'm glad you still saw something in it even though it appear overtly religious. Christianity is my birth tounge in the religious word, so I like to try to express my realized spiritual path, through bibilical verse, because where we like it or not alot of people speak bible, so I like to be able to exchange ideas and make myself understood as well as be able to interperate to learn for myself.

Thanks for sharing.
SageTree

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Mull D

"The realationship had bothered me for years and years, while talking to him seemed to be the right thing for my pride, it was the wrong thing for my true nature, which is to love."

is a word for 'not' missing between 'while' and 'talking'?

it's a good piece of writing, it all makes sense

SageTree

Hey Brother, I was cruising around reading some old posts and I wanted to bump this since it's from so long ago and we've had a couple of talks sine then... basically just thought I'd ask and get some chat since the forums are slower these days.

Cheers
SageTree

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Center

Never got a chance to read this back in the day, but just did and it's a touching story. Your story that is.

I'm glad to hear that you were willing to suck it up and call your father. Sort of reminds me of that scene in Home Alone where the street sweeper guy talks to Kevin and Kevin reminds him that the love of your father is more important then selfish pride. It's really good to know these things happen in more then just good movies from the 90's.

I hope you've kept the relationship going with your pops, Sage.

peace

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"As an organizer I start where the world is, as it is, not as I would like it to be. That we accept the world as it is does not in any sense weaken our desire to change it into what we believe it should be — it is necessary to begin where the world is if we are going to change it to what we think it should be." - Saul Alinsky

SageTree

At this point of my time at Yahooka I don't know that I was really comfortable talking about why I didn't talk to my Dad for so long.

Just to be clear about 'selfish', I am not so sure that is what I'd say... actually it's not at all.

My Dad was verbally and physically abusive to me mostly a little with my sister and very verbally abusive to my Mom.
So the 'grudge' was kind of on their behalf as well.
My decision at that point was to not carry their's anymore and deal with my own.

I wouldn't say I 'sucked it up', as much as I'd say I 'let it go'... 'set it free'.
You understand the difference in that wording?

I've tried to keep in touch with my Dad, some times more regularly than not, but I'm the one doing all the calling and writing 99% of the time, and the 1% really hasn't sustained me or helped me feel like he cares about me.

This isn't a daily struggle for me anymore, by a long shot.
But it comes up a few times a month for me still.

I'm reading a book right now that has brought this to my attention more than usual and I got to thinking.

I've been off balance with my Dad officially for nearly half my life now... not including my early years.

For what it's worth these two threads have some story in them in a few post:
If you are interested in knowing more of the story that is.
http://www.yahooka.com/forum/guidanc...l#post51889927
http://www.yahooka.com/forum/higher-...nal-abuse.html


Not to be a bummer, but that helps add some detail to the 'why'.

Thanks for the caring supportive post though. You're intention wasn't missed.
I only wanted to clarify further what I was talking about.
Thanks.

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fenderbender

Sorry Sage i couldnt read all what you wrote. I read the bible quote though.

^THE flaw of the bible.

The bible is so full of contradictions. Therefor it is hard for me to consider it a good book for teaching morality. It preaches "love thy neighbor' but if you dont you are going to hell...fighting hate with hate never works, jesus knew this and preached it.

This story takes something that some wise monk said, writes out a story explaining it, then ends it by completely contradicting the initial point.

IMO poor story telling and full of irrational conclusions the bible is. do not approve.

Sage i will read what you wrote later today as compassion is a big topic for me.

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Imagine there's no heaven,It's easy if you try

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SageTree

Sorry if that didn't suit you man.

I really don't feel like defending my beliefs or where I get my thoughts and inspirations from right now, but I'm afraid I will....

I feel sorta bad right now because you really lit into that writing without having the full idea of why I chose that scripture.

And after you read it you might see how I view things a little differently.
I DO hope you come back and read this whole post.

LIFE is full of contradictions, that doesn't mean it doesn't have personal Truth and meaning.

I am not going to sit here and say I think the Bible is infallible as a document, but I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater either.

The Bible is also full of Truth and practical advice.
Others besides Jesus also taught that Truth as well.

The other point though, to me THE most important, which Jesus mentioned over and over to the Jewish leaders is the POINT in following the Law.

The INTENTION of practice in the first place.

Practicing ANY tradition out of fear isn't a good thing imo.

Sure, people practice to help cope with life and avoid suffer as much as they can.
But in general, I'm saying that grounding ritual and the fruit that it bears is the point.

I believe for instance that, Meditation and Prayer are good ways to live, in other words, without anything else attached to them, as an extreme example.



The thing that is funny to me is that some people, maybe you're one,who can't stand a literal reading of the Bible also judge it based on that literal interpretation.
Why do the same thing you can't stand?

Read it for yourself and find meaning is what I'm saying... follow that line of thinking?

I was raised as a Christian, but write this now and above as a person who examines a Scripture for meaning as I, due to time and exposure, am abundantly familiar with them.

However that isn't where my inspiration stops as I'm sure you know and can imagine. And over time my reading of other Scripture from the Early Church as well as Other Religions have helped me better understand what is in the Jewish Bible and the Gospels.

If you really want to get an idea of my manner and approach in the practice of living Truths and how I explore them, please read my Christian Mysticism thread in Spiritual Smoke.

It's another Long read, but I bet it's a lot different than the Christianity and Christians you know, although, I don't consider myself a Christian, nor do I NOT consider myself a Christian.




Thanks for your time and I DO hope you read this or give the link a chance.
I feel Christianity gets locked down and stuck, so that when a person like myself has a different view and interpretation of it, I don't really get a fair chance to speak.... or be heard rather.... I do PLENTY of speaking


Kindly,
Sage

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fenderbender

Sage just so you know, i was not attacking your beliefs in anyway my brother. I was just simply stating what i dislike about the bible.

Considering that a good portion of the world looks to it for advice on life and death, I wish they had something better to read..

I do not deny the good aspects of the bible at all. i just dont like how many parts of the book seem to contradict the main character, yet those parts are taken just as seriously.

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Imagine there's no heaven,It's easy if you try

<3

SageTree

I completely understand you weren't attacking me and understand where your frustrations with the Bible come from.
I can't say I've always had a perfect relationship with it.

I do think there is some ridiculous stuff people take from the Bible... and add.
But I can't say I feel that it's all moot by a long shot.
There are grand metaphors about egolessness and selfless action.
I feel it could be what the story of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus is REALLY about, and how we too can have new life in the teachings and practices of Him.

It's sad people only see the parts or interpret them so as that they are exclusive.
This isn't how I see it AT ALL.

Paul was a chump, although he has some nice expounding from time to time, and it's REALLY sad the Gospel of Thomas wasn't accepted as part of the Canon.

Paul's writings should be seen as expounding on how he saw the Gospel.... and not to be taken as seriously AS the Gospel.
I feel this is at least on place the Church went wrong when it started to seek the Canonizing of the Bible.

The Nag Hammadi/Gnostic Library are fascinating.

I suggest reading the Gospel of Thomas or Phillip.

Phillip particularly interests me.

Wiki page on Phillip
The Text of PHillip
Or better yet...
From the show "" (worth an alternative look)



Again... no hard feelings. I understand you only were sharing, and my apologies if I came back a little strong. It's fair to say that Yahooka 'has it's mind made up' about a couple of things, and talking about how one relates to Spiritual Practice, especially anything Christian, is one of them. And maybe I countered something that didn't quite exist in your words.

Sorry.

Hope you do take a look, watch, read or whatever.
SageTree

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Xil

just saw this. yes, i've changed very much and am pretty receptive towards religion now.


when it comes to forgiveness, i kinda go along with the buddha (i think) quote "you will not be punished for your sins, you will be punished by your sins"

when you refuse to forgive people you start to identify more and more with how you were wronged, and it can consume you. when you forgive it frees you of that pain, its not really about freeing the other person of their responsibility.

im pretty sure theres no god whose gonna punish me if i dont forgive debts and live right, but i still have plenty of incentives to do so.

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Xil

o ya and this is probably my second favorite sage-ism.

my first is that story you told about accepting the kindness of others, how taking a dollar from an old lady you helped can actually be showing her kindness. one of the few posts i've read that has changed my outlook/behavior. i actually use that example sometimes when people feel guilty accepting charity/payment

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SageTree

Thanks for responding

I agree with the words of the Buddha on forgiveness as well, in that WE are hurt by our 'sins', not forgiving and our judgments.

You know the adage about anger being like throwing a hot coal, and when you try to throw it at someone YOU'RE the one who gets burned?

I have experienced that myself for sure... and that 'burn' is certainly a bit of what I'm talking about in the original writing. Although I have to admit, that was a while ago, and some of my own thoughts have become more concise.

I think like all religious allegory the judge or god, if you will, is US.
Some people's 'god' is really angry and hard on them, others 'god' is loving, compassionate and understanding..... We are our own peaceful and wrathful deities, imo.

From Matthew 7: 1 and 2 (although I've included up to verse 5 because I like this verse so much)

Not judging is damn hard, and we all do it.
We judge...we ARE judge by others.
What we reap we sow, so to speak, in verse 2 and to me, the way we see the world, often it's the way that it comes back to us. Judging isn't inherently bad though, and I think this is where the practice/mindfulness come into play.

This heavily reminds me of the first couple of verses of the Dhammapada and it's advice to not think in terms of I,me, mine, which you mentioned above, and how that attachment leads us down the road of delusion and troubled thoughts.

Being 'born again' or being in the cycle of 'living,dying and reborn' is the real message here to me. Forgiveness is a chance for new life, and granting new life to another in some case... that is, in the way you see that person... giving us a chance to 'co-create' the world.

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SageTree

dude.... thanks.

I accept those words
What a gift.

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Xil

never heard the hot coal thing, but i like it.

just a personal observation, but as i became less judgmental towards others a strange thing happened. it was like my judgment/criticism capacity went down, and i ended up being a lot less critical of myself. so by holding others in a higher esteem (something i can directly control), i ended up holding myself in higher esteem (something thats very hard to control). i guess being punished by your sins works the other way too, you will benefit from the good you do. this isn't to say i never judge other people, or i never get down on myself, but i've gotten a bit better and i can see the correlation.

unrelated note:
and when it comes to attachment, i think its important to realize that its not just about detachment from 'bad' behavior.
people who are so attached to their positive, charity-participating, progressive-minded, self image just bug me for some reason. buncha do-gooders circle jerking and patting themselves on the back. if you think your that good, that genuinely philanthropic, your probably not.

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